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Profile: Listening . . .
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User Name: Listening . . .
Forum Rank: Advanced Member
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Joined: Thursday, June 30, 2011
Last Visit: Sunday, June 10, 2018 11:12:12 PM
Number of Posts: 957
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  Last 10 Posts
Topic: On Political Correctness
Posted: Sunday, June 10, 2018 11:12:11 PM
Hello, All! This discussion on political correctness is long but very, very interesting and worth the watch. https://www.munkdebates.com/The-Debates/Political-Correctness
I thought 3 of the 4 presenters are excellent - curious if you agree or disagree on this point. (Stephen Fry, in particular, is outstanding!)
Topic: UN votes to reject US recognition of Jerusalem as capital.
Posted: Sunday, December 24, 2017 11:21:42 AM
This is definitely a tangent but an interesting perspective - https://www.frontpagemag.com/fpm/268113/leftists-and-jews-rabbi-shalom-lewis
Topic: Fear mongering
Posted: Saturday, December 23, 2017 12:14:44 PM
Hope123 wrote:
No problem, Listening. It is not worth the effort, anyhow.


Hope you have a great holiday with all your family and friends! Merry Christmas.

We are all ready. It helps when they are old enough to request gift cards to Lululemon and Best Buy and all you need is something for under the tree.

Plus they are doing the cooking this year. All I have to make is enough of my famous buns for twenty people and the bread machine makes that easy.

If there is no future thread to say it, I will add here now - "the best holiday wishes to all TFDers".


Thank you, Hope! I love this time of year! It FEELS good! Lots of cheer, fun music, lights, shopping, cooking, laughs, ... and ends with a renewed hope for a healthy, happy, successful (better) welcome to a new year!
As often as there are disagreements in any forum, I am a firm believer that everyone on this earth wants the same things, at the most basic levels. We all love our children/our family, we all don’t want to be hungry or sick, and we all want to feel valued as human beings. To all those out there within the range of my voice - May you find (and give) peace to this world that is yours and mine
.
Topic: Fear mongering
Posted: Saturday, December 23, 2017 12:00:03 PM
After some thought, a re-read of this thread, and watching this https://www.memri.org/tv/antisemitic-sermon-jersey-city-imam-aymen-elkasaby, think the simple answer to your question is “No. Fear mongering is not ok.” I believe this regardless of who it is that promotes the (invalidated) fear. A person in a position of power has an exaggerated level of responsibility since the people under this position rely on the information presented as truth.

Something to consider and a lesson I have always tried to teach my kids is that being afraid is ok, but panic is not. The reason for this lesson is two-fold. Panic may incite a response or lack of response that could unnecessarily cause injury; also, the reason for the panic may not be as bad as what it originally appears.

I guess the next question is, how do we stop the panic?
Topic: Humanity
Posted: Saturday, December 23, 2017 12:16:20 AM
Ahhhh. Re-reading this thread was refreshing, like drinking a cold drink on a hot summer day! Will, your ideas so profoundly touch that center of my hopeful soul. If there is an afterlife, I hope it looks like what I see in my dreams.

Happiest of holiday wishes to my family around the world!
Topic: Fear mongering
Posted: Thursday, December 21, 2017 2:11:02 PM
Hope, I’m not ignoring your post. I am very busy with holiday preparation and get-togethers! Dancing
Topic: Fear mongering
Posted: Thursday, December 21, 2017 2:07:59 PM
progpen wrote:
will wrote:
progpen wrote:
Yes, that is what I'm doing but Listening doesn't seem to catch on to that sort of thing, so I then resort to being direct and he ignores me. Ah well, what can you do?


It's worth considering that Listening... might be ignoring you for an entirely different reason. I would hate to think FounDit believes I ignore his arguments because I'm unable to 'catch on'. Think


Thanks Will, I know it hasn't been about being "unable to catch on" and thanks for calling me out on that.

@Listening, I apologize for putting that out there. Personal pot shots are not called for.


Thank you, Prog. No hard feelings.
Topic: Fear mongering
Posted: Wednesday, December 20, 2017 1:03:45 AM
progpen wrote:
March Hare wrote:
Listening . . . wrote:
progpen wrote:
So white middle class male Americans don't tell lies, they just tell truths that are not yet the truth and may never become the truth but are not yet lies. I'm thinking Shroedinger's cat would be able to figure this one out.


Prog,
For someone who doesn’t like racists and unequal treatment, you certainly seem to blast the white male.Shame on you


If a number of people who happen to be Muslims are terrorists, does that give people the right to label all Muslims as terrorists? If yes, then a number of white males lying through their teeth also gives people the right to call all white males liars.

Generalizations are never a good thing, about any group of the population, because they are at the root of racism, sexism, and other such unpleasant -isms. My guess is that this is exactly what Progpen is trying to show here, by reversing the racism so that you would recognize it more easily.


Thank you March Hare. Yes, that is what I'm doing but Listening doesn't seem to catch on to that sort of thing, so I then resort to being direct and he ignores me. Ah well, what can you do?


I am not a “he.”
Topic: Fear mongering
Posted: Wednesday, December 20, 2017 12:52:09 AM
March Hare wrote:
Listening . . . wrote:
progpen wrote:
So white middle class male Americans don't tell lies, they just tell truths that are not yet the truth and may never become the truth but are not yet lies. I'm thinking Shroedinger's cat would be able to figure this one out.


Prog,
For someone who doesn’t like racists and unequal treatment, you certainly seem to blast the white male.Shame on you


If a number of people who happen to be Muslims are terrorists, does that give people the right to label all Muslims as terrorists? If yes, then a number of white males lying through their teeth also gives people the right to call all white males liars.

Generalizations are never a good thing, about any group of the population, because they are at the root of racism, sexism, and other such unpleasant -isms. My guess is that this is exactly what Progpen is trying to show here, by reversing the racism so that you would recognize it more easily.


Yes. I knew exactly what Prog was trying to accomplish. Why did he suspect I would recognize white male as the reverse? That is the question and the reason for my retort.
Topic: Fear mongering
Posted: Wednesday, December 20, 2017 12:48:11 AM
will wrote:
Listening... wrote:
I think we can all agree that Trump is not the most refined politician in the arena. However, I don’t believe Trump delivers any message that he believes is false. In other words, Trump believes what he is saying. Therefore, he is not telling a lie. I sincerely do not believe he is intent on misleading US citizens (or the world) into fearing a group of people. The group of people are speaking loudly enough for themselves about their intended direction. I suspect the victims and the families of the victims of terrorist attacks understand Trump’s movement toward mobilizing a defense.

Listening... I don’t want to drag this discussion on much further, I might not agree with you, but at least you are able to plainly state the ‘other’ side without feeling the need to resort to polemic and stereotyping; I genuinely appreciate that... and flogging it out until you finally see how wrong you are is not worth the animosity. Whistle I giveth with one hand...

I thank you for the gesture. I fear, however, you might be the one to wave the white flag at the end of it all. ; )

I will say, however, that your argument works in exactly the same way as justification for the Taliban or ISIS; they don’t believe what they are saying is false, they genuinely (at least to the same political degree) believe the fear of ‘us’ is justified. Western military invasions, corporate occupation, physical and verbal abuse on the streets of one’s adopted country and lying tweets that attempt to portray Muslims – as a group – as savages, are all actions that ‘speak loudly enough for themselves’. The victims of decades of Western interference in the Middle East understand...etc.

This is a fair point. Both sides strongly believe their side is the right side. This conflict will continue until one survives and one dies. I suspect the western side would prefer to live in harmony but the other side plans terror attacks on innocent people - this act, in itself, doesn’t seem to beg for peace and harmony.

Actually, that last point (and yours before) is ‘begging the question, a logical fallacy; there is no evidence to suggest that victims of terror are inclined to understand or support the actions of those that further perpetuate terror and, in this case, the ‘clash of civilisation’ myth. It’s this self-fulfilling cycle that extremists attempt to exploit. In fact the most common response to most attacks, in my experience, is one of peace, compassion, unity and hope.

Others have made this point already, but it’s worth repeating: peace, compassion, unity and hope are hard ideals to achieve. Whereas fear, hate and division are easy. This is why we have a situation where the overwhelming majority of humanity – including this old ‘lefty’ – want the former, but are drowned out by the tiny minority that promote the latter.

Listening... wrote:
If, as you state that this type response is all based in waking fear in the weak-minded, how do you explain what has happened to the families of the dead?

Sorry, I don’t understand the question. I think you've misunderstood what I said.


Listening... wrote:
Do you tell them that fearing (or being angry) toward the group that killed their loved one is not justified; that there is not a group to fear, in fact?

Which ‘group that killed their loved one’ are you referring to? Muslims in general? Muslims from a particular country? Migrants? Dutch nationals? Or males that beat up disabled people?
I suggest your use of the term ‘group’ is buying into the unqualified ‘us’ and ‘them’ fear-mongering that the likes of Trump are promoting.

Listening... wrote:
Their lost loved ones matter. It would be nice to slow the hate that moves such violence.

As I said before, the bottom line is this: do you think Trump’s anti-Muslim tweets are more likely or less likely to inflame the situation and lead to further hate and violence? Do you really believe that extremists are going to throw in the towel because the figurehead of Western imperialism portrays Muslims as savages, by tweeting a video of a Dutch national of undetermined religion beating up a disabled person? Eh?

I don’t think Trump should Tweet. His ability to communicate lacks clarity and, sadly, refinement. I don’t think his tweets are helpful to the situation but I also don’t think they have substantial impact on the decisions of terrorists to continue to terrorize. Obama was an outstanding orator and chose his words carefully - there was neither a decrease in terrorist attacks nor a diminished level of fear or anger.

I suspect the reason the White House, and Trump supporters, refuse to admit the obvious wrong in this particular incident is because it is in no way an isolated case.

Listening... wrote:
How do we do that?

We, the overwhelming majority of humanity, do that by promoting peace, compassion, unity, hope, rationality and truth, and by rejecting hate, fear and lies.

I wholeheartedly love this idea. Peace, compassion, unity, hope, rationality, and truth. If only the human condition didn’t screw these up so badly, compassion, hope, rationality, and truth would (in theory) bring peace and unity. When, in human history, has there been such a utopian existence? I suspect you will say there hasn’t but it’s the right direction to strive toward. I do my part. I am kind and compassionate to everyone and, sometimes, too trusting. I seek peace and not conflict. I am hopeful for a bright future.
BUT I am not going to leave my doors unlocked for the gang members that may have moved into my neighborhood (and I am certainly not going to invite them in for milk and cookies! They want to pillage and plunder and will leave me for dead. Hypothetical neighborhood situation for demonstration purposes only.).


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