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Profile: lazarius
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User Name: lazarius
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Joined: Saturday, August 27, 2016
Last Visit: Sunday, July 21, 2019 10:50:50 AM
Number of Posts: 531
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  Last 10 Posts
Topic: would not have missed
Posted: Saturday, July 20, 2019 11:49:43 AM
NKM wrote:
(Of course it can call for the subjunctive when used with other tenses: "… even though the whole world turn against me.")

Now I have a question on this - why not the whole world would have turned?

There is a huge problem that I couldn't solve yet. If only you all native speakers could help me?

I understand quite well how the conditionals (first, second and third) work in the present. But how they shift (if they do) when recounted in the past or in reported speech I know not and there is scarce information available. Actually there is only a problem with the second conditional because the first is always shifted and the third has nowhere to shift.

Let me state my question particularly. Here's a pair of examples:

I would buy this car if I had the money.
I would buy this car if John lent me the money.

The first has a stative verb - have - in the if clause and because of that is a counterfactual statement about the present. The second has an active verb - lend - and is an unresolved statement about the future.

Now I need to recount this in the past:

And then I saw this car. I would ...

And I need to report it:

Sergei said that he would ...

Now there's is a circumstance that has to be taken into account. The second example is unresolved from the point of view in the past. From the narrator's point of view there are three options. The question is still unresolved or it is resolved in two defferent ways - John has lent the money or has refused to lend.

Here's what I have so far.

1. BobShilling's statement in this thread:

https://forum.thefreedictionary.com/postst190984_Indirect-speech.aspx

BobShilling wrote:
Second conditionals do not backshift in reported speech. Third conditionals cannot.

2. https://www.grammaring.com/second-conditional-in-indirect-speech

3. This is from Michael Swan's book:



This is the paragraph alluded to in the first picture:



They all sort of contradict each other.

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Topic: would not have missed
Posted: Saturday, July 20, 2019 8:36:54 AM
thar wrote:
I guess you could call it a hidden conditional

[snip]

I wouldn't have missed it, even if there was an option of something else I wanted to do
I wouldn't have missed it even though there was an alternative action I wanted to do.

I guess this is recounting decisions in the past. Can you explain why you only shift the main clause and do not shift the if clause. Why not

I wouldn't have missed it, even if there had been an option of something else I wanted to do

?

And why don't you use the subjunctive for the verb to be?

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Topic: would not have missed
Posted: Saturday, July 20, 2019 7:22:33 AM
Quote:
Now I would not have missed that hour's talk with Lily to bring a score of murderous-minded foreigners to their deserts, and, moreover, this one had earned good payment for his behaviour.

Haggard, Henry Rider. Montezuma's Daughter (p. 10). Kindle Edition.

He is actually saying that he wasn't going to miss his tryst. Why then the perfect form, why not would not miss? I would have thought that he actually missed it but if you read a little further you will find that he met his sweetheart.

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Topic: Yarmouth Clam Festival
Posted: Friday, July 19, 2019 8:27:25 AM
thar wrote:
I know people wanted to remember their hometowns but Yarmouth is the mouth of the river Yar / Yare, so it is a bit weird to find one in the middle of a plain!

They have Yarmouth Roads! Actually just one road but who cares?



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Topic: the common
Posted: Thursday, July 18, 2019 2:29:35 AM
Drag0nspeaker wrote:
Aha! Found It - pannage.

A very interesting article and another new word for me:

https://www.lexico.com/en/definition/mast

Quote:
mass noun

The fruit of beech, oak, chestnut, and other forest trees, especially as food for pigs.

Thank you.

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Topic: hard put (to it) to do
Posted: Thursday, July 18, 2019 2:13:26 AM
Drag0nspeaker wrote:
When it's the other way round, it definitely sounds odd.

What I have quoted was said in New Zealand's Parliament in 1954:

https://books.google.com/books?id=XUshAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA341&dq=%22have+been+hard+put+to+it+to+find%22

Thank you.

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Topic: I was in the way to become affianced to a maid, who had my path to cut in the world
Posted: Thursday, July 18, 2019 2:04:55 AM
Drag0nspeaker wrote:
The other very dated point is the father.
He was not going to ask Lily if she would marry him - he was going to ask her father if he would give her to him - very odd.

No that's quite modern - they together, his brother and her father, would be talking her into marriage. You have to read what's there a page before:

Quote:
But before I go further I must tell that Squire Bozard looked with no favour on the friendship between his daughter and myself — and this, not because he disliked me, but rather because he would have seen Lily wedded to my elder brother Geoffrey, my father's heir, and not to a younger son.

Haggard, Henry Rider. Montezuma's Daughter (p. 8). Kindle Edition.

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Topic: hard put (to it) to do
Posted: Wednesday, July 17, 2019 2:38:15 PM
FounDit wrote:
Yes, it sounds odd to me.

Thank you.

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Topic: I was in the way to become affianced to a maid, who had my path to cut in the world
Posted: Wednesday, July 17, 2019 2:35:35 PM
FounDit wrote:
This is another way to say, "Not that I was in a hurry to become engaged,..."

Probably very archaic way - I couldn't find this meaning in the dictionaries. :)

Thank you very much!

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Topic: hard put (to it) to do
Posted: Wednesday, July 17, 2019 1:54:07 PM
https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=hard+put+to%2Chard+put+to+it&year_start=1800&year_end=2000&corpus=15&smoothing=3

It looks like before the 1920s it was only used with to it - hard put to it or hard put to it to do. Now it is mostly used in the form hard put to do. Will hard put to it to do be considered old fashioned today? For example this:

Quote:
Opposition Members have been hard put to it to find any real cause for complaint.

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