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Joined: Friday, November 14, 2014
Last Visit: Wednesday, May 18, 2016 3:16:19 PM
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Topic: Poem by Rumi translated by Reynold A. Nicholson + My version
Posted: Saturday, May 14, 2016 12:02:45 AM
thar wrote:
I didn't get through all of it, so I might have to come back.

25 feels a bit dodgy.
The style of all the rest is very Old English, but that one jars a bit.
'Full-of-complaint folk sounds like the sort of thing that would be shortened in that style of English - eg plaintful folk, folk full of plaint.



"plaintful folk" and "folk full of plaint", I think, fit very well here.


thar wrote:
then on reading the 'original' translation, I see the meaning is different.

yours describes the people as complaining. You are tired of those people.
25 - Of this weeping, full-of-complaint folk, I am weary;
The drunkards' cries of joy I desire.

I am fed up with whingers - I want happy drunks!

But his words all describe 'I':
25 - Of this folk I am full of complaint, weeping and weary;
I desire the drunkards' wailing and lamentation.

I am full of complaint, weeping and weary
It does not describe the people
Yours makes much more sense, as you have a contrast between moaning people and happy people, which I do not read into his version.

Ah, but his drunks are unhappy - so that is completely different in your version.
That does seem to change the meaning. I haven't checked the others against his, so that may be a common theme - I just checked that one because I thought there were more fitting ways of saying it in yours.



Rumi's Divan-e Shams like the other old texts has different versions. I do not know which one Prof. Nicholson has used, but the one I have and I think it is one of the reliable versions, as far as I understand means the poet is tired of complaining people and wants to be with the drunkards and hear they cries of joy, though "drunkard" here does not seem to be an adequate translation, because the Persian word is not used just about the alcoholic drinks; it is a verb used about everything that makes you lose your senses like a very beautiful scene, a very pleasant smell, or love.


thar wrote:
A couple of times it causes a problem with punctuation.
eg
29 - Yesterday, the Master with a lantern was roaming about the city,
Crying, ‘I am tired of devil and beast, a man I desire.'

That last statement is separate, even opposing. A comma does not feel right as a separator. Maybe a dash or semicolon is more appropriate.



you mean like this:
29 - Yesterday, the Master with a lantern was roaming about the city-
Crying, ‘I am tired of devil and beast, a man I desire.' ?

Most of the time I suffer from this problem with punctuation. It is a chronic illness.



What about this line:
35 - "Hidden from the sights, and all sights are from Him;" ? Does it correctly convey the meaning that "He is hidden from our eyes, but our vision and our sight originate from Him?

And I am very much willing to know what yours and the other members' opinions are about the rest of the poem.

Thank you very much
Topic: Poem by Rumi translated by Reynold A. Nicholson + My version
Posted: Friday, May 13, 2016 11:58:37 AM
Hello every one

The poem below is from Rumi translated into English by Reynold A. Nicholson in his book Selected Poems from the Divani Shamsi Tabriz.

In the original Persian poem "aarezoost", meaning, "I desire" is repeated at the end of every other line after the rhyme, for example, syllables like "taan", "vaan", "baan", "jaan" etc.

So I thought it would be more faithful to the original poem and more beautiful if "I desire" or "my desire" is put an the end of lines instead of in the middle of the lines.
I am not a native speaker of English, so I am not sure about the rhythm of Nicholson's translation, though I think he does not try to render the poem rhythmical or follow any special meter.

I also think it is allowed in poetic language to change the order of subject-verb-object to object-subject-verb.

What do you think of the version I offer, based on Nicholson's translation (with little changes here and there)?

Mine:

1 - Show thy face, for the orchard and the rose-garden I desire;
Ope thy lips, for sugar in plenty I desire.

3 - O sun, show forth thy face from the veil of cloud,
For that radiant glowing countenance I desire.

5 - From desire for thee I hearkened to the sound of the falcon-drum ;
I have returned, for the sultan's arm I desire.

7 - 'Vex me no more,' thou saidst capriciously, 'begone!'
That saying of thine, 'Vex me no more', I desire.

9 - And thy bidding off with 'Depart, he is not at home,'
And the airs and pride and harshness of the door-keeper, I desire.

11 - O sweet zephyr, that blowest from the flower-plot of the Friend,
Blow on me, for news of the basil, I desire.

13 - Filings of beauty are in the possession of every one that exists;
That quarry and that mine of exquisite loveliness is my desire.

15 - The bread and water of destiny is treacherous like a flood;
I am a great fish and the great sea of 'Oman, I desire.

17 - Jacob-like, I am uttering cries of grief,
The fair face of Joseph of Canaan, I desire.

19 - By God, without thee the city is a prison to me,
O'er mountain and desert to wander is my desire.

21 - My heart is tired of these weak-spirited companions;
The Lion of God and Rustam, son of Zal, I desire.

23 - My soul is grown weary of Pharaoh and his tyranny;
The light of the countenance of Moses, son of 'Imran, I desire.

25 - Of this weeping, full-of-complaint folk, I am weary;
The drunkards' cries of joy I desire.


27 - More eloquent than the nightingale, I am, but because of vulgar envy
A seal is on my tongue, tho' to moan is my desire.

29 - Yesterday, the Master with a lantern was roaming about the city,
Crying, ‘I am tired of devil and beast, a man I desire.'

31 - They said, ‘He is not to be found, we have sought Him long.'
A thing that is not to be found-that is my desire.

33 - Bankrupt tho' I be, I will not accept a small carnelian;
That rare tremulous carnelian is my desire.

35 - Hidden from the sights, and all sights are from Him;
That hidden One whose works are manifest, I desire.

37 - My state has passed even beyond all yearning and desire;
To go from Being and Place toward the Essentials, I desire.

39 - Mine ear listened to the tale of faith and was intoxicated;
Say, 'The limbs and the body and the face of faith I desire.'

41 - In one hand a wine-cup and in one hand a curl of the Beloved:
Such a dance in the midst of the market-place is my desire.

43 - I myself am Love's rebeck, and Love is a rebeck to me;
The hand and bosom and modulation of 'Othman I desire.

45 - That rebeck is saying, ‘Every moment passionately
The favours of the mercy of the Merciful I desire.'

47 - O cunning minstrel, con the rest of this ode
After this fashion, for after this fashion I desire.

49 - Display, O Sun who art glory of Tabriz, the dawning of Love;
I am the hoopoe: the presence of Solomon is my desire.


Mr Nicholson's:

1 - Show thy face, for I desire the orchard and the rose-garden ;
Ope thy lips, for I desire sugar in plenty.

3 - O sun, show forth thy face from the veil of cloud,
For I desire that radiant glowing countenance.

5 - From love for thee I hearkened to the sound of the falcon-drum ;
I have returned, for the sultan's arm is my desire.

7 - 'Vex me no more,' thou saidst capriciously, 'begone!'
I desire that saying of thine, 'V ex me no more.'

9 - And thy bidding off with 'Depart, he is not at home,'
And the airs and pride and harshness of the door-keeper I desire.

11 - O sweet zephyr, that blowest from the flower-plot of the Friend,
Blow on me, for I desire news of the basil.

13 - Filings of beauty are in the possession of every one that exists ;
I desire that quarry and that mine of exquisite loveliness.

15 - The bread and water of destiny is like a treacherous flood ;
I am a great fish and desire the sea of 'Oman.

17 - Like Jacob I am uttering cries of grief,
I desire the fair face of Joseph of Canaan.

19 - By God, without thee the city is a prison to me,
O'er mountain and desert I desire to wander.

21 - My heart is weary of these weak-spirited companions ;
I desire the Lion of God and Rustam, son of Zal.

23 - My soul is grown weary of Pharaoh and his tyranny;
I desire the light of the countenance of Moses, son of 'Imran.

25 - Of this folk I am full of complaint, weeping and weary;
I desire the drunkards' wailing and lamentation.

27 - I am more eloquent than the nightingale, but because of vulgar envy
A seal is on my tongue, tho' I desire to moan.

29 - Yesterday the Master with a lantern was roaming about the city ,
Crying, r I am tired of devil and beast, I desire a man.'

31 - They said, ‘He is not to be found, we have sought Him long.'
A thing which is not to be found-that is my desire.

33 - Bankrupt tho' I be, I will not accept a small carnelian;
The mine of rare tremulous carnelian is my desire.

35 - He is hidden from our eyes, and all objects are from Him;
I desire that hidden One whose works are manifest.

37 - My state has passed even beyond all yearning and desire;
I desire to go from Being and Place toward the Essentials.

39 - Mine ear listened to the tale of faith and was intoxicated;
Say, 'The limbs and the body and the form of faith are my desire.'

41 - In one hand a wine-cup and in one hand a curl of the Beloved:
Such a dance in the midst of the market-place is my desire.

43 - I myself am Love's rebeck, and Love is a rebeck to me;
I desire the hand and bosom and modulation of 'Othman.

45 - That rebeck is saying, ‘Every moment passionately
I desire the favours of the mercy of the Merciful.'

47 - O cunning minstrel, con the rest of this ode
After this fashion, for after this fashion I desire.

49 - Display, O Sun who art Tabriz's glory, the dawning of Love ;
I am the hoopoe: the presence of Solomon is my desire.





Topic: I need your comments on this translated poem from Persian
Posted: Friday, March 04, 2016 4:59:00 AM
You helped me a lot.

Thank you again, Thar
Topic: I need your comments on this translated poem from Persian
Posted: Thursday, March 03, 2016 3:39:17 PM
I read your valuable comments and tried to improve my work. I did some correction and made some changes. Does it sound better now? Is there still any problem?

And by rhythm, I do not mean any specific meter; by asking about the rhythm I meant does it look like a poem at all? Does it sound different from a piece of normal prose you may read? Is it pleasant to your ears when you read it? I am asking this since I am not a native speaker, and so I cannot form a genuine opinion about how it sounds to you when you read the poem or read it aloud.


Whitherto (Isn’t it too archaic?)

Whither are you hastening?
The thorn did breathe
To the breeze
Of here I am tired.
From the dirt of this desert,
Do you not wish to journey?
Do you not desire
the opportunity to seize?
From the heart, that I aspire,
Alas and alack, my feet are tied.
Whither are you hastening?
Whither that is my place
Other than this place.
My wishes to you, but
For love of Lord, (=By all that is holy)
When you have escaped
From this dreary desert,
To the blossoms, to the brooks,
To the rain, to the blooms,
Our regards send,
My beloved friend.

Thank you Thar and Drag0nspeaker for your helpful comments.
Topic: I need your comments on this translated poem from Persian
Posted: Thursday, March 03, 2016 3:33:01 AM
Hi

I am going to translate a couple of Persian poems into English as a project for a course in translation of literary texts among which there is a poem by Dr. Kadkani, Iranian writer and poet and a lecturer in The University of Tehran. I really love the poem. It is a modern poem; it has kind of rhythm and is unrhymed, anyway it is very beautiful when you read it in Persian.

My English is far from perfect, and my translation of the poem has a lot of problems for sure. I need your comments and ideas on and about it in terms of grammar, word choice, and rhythm. Please do not hesitate to speak frankly; if it is a poor poem (I mean, the translated one) you can say it upfront; anyway I would really appreciate your comments.


The thorn asked the breeze

Where toward (are you)* tearing? (= Where are you going in such a hurry)
The thorn asked the breeze.
Of here I am tired.
Do you not seek journey (= don’t you wish to go on a trip)
From the dirt of this desert?
From head to toe, that I desire, (= I want that wholeheartedly)
Alas, Alas, my feet are tied.
Where toward (are you)* tearing?
To any place (place: here, I need a literary term for a large home)
Which is my place
Other than here.
My wishes to you, but
For the love of God,
When you have this
Dreary dusty desert cleared, (= when you are out of this desert)
To the blossoms, to the blooms,
To the rain, to the brooks
Our regards send
my friend dear.

* Actually I am not sure if it is possible to omit verbs in poetic language, for example “are you” in this case.

Topic: I got off being sold out
Posted: Monday, February 02, 2015 3:15:44 PM
I just wanted you to know that I am following the posts in this thread carefully, I am very grateful to all of you guys who have given and will give your opinions on this, and I would appreciate other comments and interpretations. I must thank Thar, Gus Salazar, and specially Romany for the comprehensive explanations about “get off”, “sold out”, "California", and "Minnesota".

Thanks again
Topic: Who do you think the best English satirists are?
Posted: Monday, February 02, 2015 5:14:03 AM
Thank you all for your kind replies.

I have watched some episodes of South Park and I totally agree with Romany about its merits. I really appreciate your answers; I will try to follow the names and find the works recommended here, and I am eager to know other opinions. (I am particularly interested in written satire regarding current political and social issues, about either domestic or foreign affairs; for example, elections, political parties, extremists, politicians, cultural misunderstandings, etc; but I would also like satirical TV shows or documentaries.)

I thought maybe it is better to include all satirists writing in English regardless of their nationality in this thread; so that the discussion here will be more useful about introducing top-notch satire and number one satirists.

It seems I am not able to change the Topic of the thread. If it is permitted and right to change it, I ask the moderators to correct the topic this way to make it more informative and more precise “Who are the best satirists writing in English today?
Topic: I got off being sold out
Posted: Monday, February 02, 2015 4:18:33 AM
I had difficulty understanding “got off” in the context, but now I know it means “escape”, “avoid”, or “got away with”.

Thar’s broad imagination was really inspiring.

Romany said '"to be sold out" actually is used to describe being betrayed.' I wanted to know whether it is a fixed expression or does “sell (sb) out“ also mean “to betray (sb)”?

Another question I forgot to ask in my first post; “I'm looking California; And feeling Minnesota” means I look like California, but that is just the surface, beneath, my feelings are that of “Minnesota” (which I do not know what kind of feelings they are), yes?

Thanks you very much
Topic: Who do you think the best English satirists are?
Posted: Sunday, February 01, 2015 6:16:01 AM
Hello everyone

I am very interested in reading different kinds of satire; could you please recommend some political and social satirists, preferably columnists or magazines specialized in the subject (from English speaking countries)?
Topic: I got off being sold out
Posted: Sunday, February 01, 2015 5:51:20 AM
Hello all

This is part of the lyrics of "Outshined" by Soundgarden

"I got up feeling so down
I got off being sold out
I've kept the movie rolling
But the story's getting old now

I just looked in the mirror
And things aren't looking so good
I'm looking California
And feeling Minnesota"

1- I think "being sold out" means "having forsaken true beliefs for the sake of money or power"; am I right?

2- What could "got off" mean here?

Thanks

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