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Profile: Lotje1000
User Name: Lotje1000
Forum Rank: Advanced Member
Gender: None Specified
Joined: Monday, November 3, 2014
Last Visit: Wednesday, January 22, 2020 4:42:21 AM
Number of Posts: 1,106
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  Last 10 Posts
Topic: Public Example of Misogyny that Affects All Women
Posted: Wednesday, January 22, 2020 3:10:27 AM
This thread is a great micro version of feminist discourse in general: The original message about the architecture of misogyny society illustrated by the gender expectations imposed by the media is lost. The discussion was very quickly interrupted by one of the most common diversions ("not all men") in this type of conversation. The debate then switched to a justification for the term "feminism" before turning into talk of personal accusations.

It's a shame because the article in the original post is worth reading.
Topic: Public Example of Misogyny that Affects All Women
Posted: Wednesday, January 22, 2020 2:53:36 AM
Y111 wrote:
Lotje1000 wrote:
Ask yourself why being feminine is a bad thing.

I never wrote it was a bad thing. By this logic I must also think it's bad to be masculine because it would also sound odd to me if a woman said she was a masculist. If you feel an urge to accuse, at least accuse people of what they did.

No, you didn't write explicitly say that being feminine is a bad thing. You said it was odd. You said that men sounding like they were saying they are feminine was odd to you, to the point where it was enough to make you (and "most likely many men") not want to associate with feminism. That sounds to me like being associated with femininity and promoting women's rights seem like a thing a man should not do. Or, like it's a bad thing for a man to do. In short, being feminine is bad for a man.

Feel free to tell me if I've misinterpreted, but even so - that post wasn't directed at you specifically.

Y111 wrote:
As I see it, forums like this one are for discussions, not accusations. They are places where people can try to understand one another, even when they are of different cultures and have different gender expectations. It may be difficult, but it's the only constructive thing that we can do here. You can't change me and I can't change you with accusatory posts. We have no authority over each other. Does it make you uncomfortable?

Nope and also no, I am not accusing you.

Y111 wrote:
A couple of posts is too much time to discuss a term? Come on. We are on a language website, after all. It's only natural that people coming here are interested in language and sensitive to word meanings. But even if it weren't a language site, I still don't see what's wrong with sharing thoughts about the role the name of a movement plays in its reputation. How is it supposed to prevent you from doing more important things? Do you feel controlled by me? You could simply have ignored my post. If you didn't, it was your free choice. So I don't quite understand your "if only".

You seem to be taking this quite personally. I do not feel controlled by you. In that post I made, I am not talking solely to you or about your messages. I am talking about a general trend that happens in reactions to feminist discourse. People seem far more interested in questioning the term than to actually listen to the things feminism stands for or read its definition. Like I said, it's a common defensive reaction when people are confronted with something they find uncomfortable. It's easier to attack the messenger (or the term) than to listen to the message.
Topic: Public Example of Misogyny that Affects All Women
Posted: Tuesday, January 21, 2020 3:38:24 AM
Women have long been erased from history. Feminism is called that because it's a movement that wants to make women visible again. (Similarly, that's why it's "Black lives matter" and not "All lives matter".) Focusing on one issue does not make other issues cease to matter. Supporting women does not mean erasing men. Yet when someone brings up the subject of women, it's not long before the attention is drawn back to men. That's not because it's called "feminism". That's because it's a knee-jerk defensive mechanism. Just calling it another name isn't going to magically fix the discomfort those in power have when a group starts to stand up for itself.

Does the word "feminism" make people uncomfortable? Good. Sit with that discomfort and ask yourself why it makes you uncomfortable. Ask yourself why some men are uncomfortable because they feel "I am feminist" sounds like "I am feminine". Ask yourself why being feminine is a bad thing. Ask yourself why every essay, article, post, interview, forum thread about women's rights has to include a long-winded disclaimer "of course not all men" or why we have to keep explaining what feminism means. It's not because it's called "feminism". It's because it's easier to blame a word, fall back on defensiveness and outrage than it is to actually listen to what is being said.

If only we all took half the time we spent dissecting and explaining the term and instead applied it to:
- listening to and acknowledging women's experiences
- acknowledging the existence of our outdated gender expectations
- working together to get rid of said expectations
- or, if all else fails, stop making life difficult for other people who are just trying to exist.

I swear it's like arguing if the titanic is a boat or a ship while we really should be getting people into life boats.

Topic: Public Example of Misogyny that Affects All Women
Posted: Monday, January 20, 2020 7:47:37 AM
On the topic of feminism and equality, Oxfam published a global overview on economic inequality between the sexes:

It talks about the results of "a flawed and sexist economic system that values the wealth of the privileged few, mostly men, more than the billions of hours of the most essential work – the unpaid and underpaid care work done primarily by women and girls around the world."

Oxfam advocates the following:
Governments around the world can, and must, build a human economy that is feminist and benefits the 99%, not only the 1%. This world would be one where everyone has secure jobs paying decent wages, where nobody lives in fear of the cost of falling sick, and where every child has the chance to fulfil their potential. In this world, our economy would thrive within the limits of our planet, handing a better world to every new generation.

(emphasis mine)
Topic: Public Example of Misogyny that Affects All Women
Posted: Monday, January 20, 2020 7:02:10 AM
Y111 wrote:
Lotje1000 wrote:
I can tell you the earth orbits the sun, and if that feels odd to you - well, that doesn't change facts. So maybe just accept the facts, regardless of how that makes you feel.

But what I wrote above is also facts. That gut reaction, as you call it, won't disappear just because you dislike it. The name 'feminism' doesn't imply cooperation between sexes; it implies a movement for the benefit of women. Therefore I think that the name works against you, not for. Maybe just with simple folks like myself, but still. It's up to you to decide whether it's of any importance or not.

It is a movement for the benefit of women. I find it weird that you think that doesn't imply cooperation between the sexes. Or rather, that it seems to require the opposite.
Topic: Public Example of Misogyny that Affects All Women
Posted: Monday, January 20, 2020 3:06:57 AM
Y111 wrote:
Hope123 wrote:
But feminists are not usually misandrists. That is a common misconception.

I think one source of this mistrust toward feminists is their name. If they are for equity, they should call themselves 'equitists'.

It's natural that every group strives for its rights and let others take care of theirs, but this means competition, not cooperation. It divides, not unites.

If you heard of a group called 'blackists' or 'whitists', would you think they were for racial equity? Similarly, when I hear about feminists, I simply think that they are women wanting more rights for themselves. When a man calls himself a feminist, it sounds odd, almost like "I am feminine". So I just can't associate myself with this movement. Most likely many men feel the same.

I find this an interesting point. The word "feminist" really does seem to bring out a lot of mistrust. However, while feminism is about equality between the sexes, that naturally means focusing on increasing women's rights (to the point where the match men's rights) - hence the name feminism.

It's interesting that when women strive to have their voices heard equally loudly as men's voices, suddenly people think that they want to silence men. It's a defensive reaction very similar to what some people experience when they hear "white privilege", "black lives matter" etc. Asking people to listen to a specific group of people never means we have to forget everyone else. This gut reaction implies that these people think feminists want to compete, when really we want to cooperate.

A lot of resources online explain how feminism works, how it's about equal rights, cooperation, unity. If, despite this explanation, you still feel like it sounds odd, like you can't associate yourself with this movement, then I ask you to look at yourself and analyse why you feel that way. I can tell you the earth orbits the sun, and if that feels odd to you - well, that doesn't change facts. So maybe just accept the facts, regardless of how that makes you feel.
Topic: Public Example of Misogyny that Affects All Women
Posted: Friday, January 17, 2020 3:23:28 AM
Hope123 wrote:

Interesting points.

"Policing correct female behavior keeps all women in their place"

When you watch for it, yes, this happens all the time and women are sometimes as much to blame as men.

Thanks for the article, Hope. It's very telling how society and the media leap on public figures like that, painting a target on them and using them to make statements on how (not) to behave. Policing the behaviour of women this way, limiting their lives like that, is toxic.

We need more articles like this one, asking questions and shining a light on how society polices women, forcing them into a corset of expectations and pretending it's meant to offer them support.

I recommend reading the essay "Grandmother Spider" by Rebecca Solnit. It has telling insights, such as:
When I was young, women were raped on the campus of a great university and the authorities responded by telling all the women students not to go out alone after dark or not to be out at all. [...] Some pranksters put up a poster announcing another remedy, that all men be excluded from campus after dark. It was an equally logical solution, but men were shocked at being asked to disappear, to lose their freedom to move and participate, all because of the violence of one man.
Topic: Public Example of Misogyny that Affects All Women
Posted: Friday, January 17, 2020 2:31:43 AM
Amazing. Such a short thread and we already have victim blaming and the "not all men" diversion.

I only need the following to complete my anti-feminists argument bingo and win another toaster. Please provide:

- "We no longer need feminism, women already have equal rights" and its subset "I'm a woman and I don't need feminism"
- "You shouldn't complain, the women of X country have it far worse"
- "Feminist just hate men"
- "Men get abused too"

Topic: Global Warming Reality
Posted: Friday, January 17, 2020 2:23:41 AM
FounDit wrote:
I'm still waiting for someone to tell me what the perfect temperature of the Earth is supposed to be. Anyone? Hello?

That's quite a strawman.

FounDit wrote:
And still no one says a word about the biggest polluters of all, China and India. Sheesh.

Looks like you didn't actually read the article. They have a very clear graph mentioning China and India.

I'm not sure what joy you get in such pointless outrage and misdirection.
Topic: friable
Posted: Thursday, January 16, 2020 6:21:21 AM
I appreciate the example, taurine! I just wish I hadn't read it just before lunchtime...