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 Rank: Advanced Member
Joined: 3/17/2009 Posts: 1,221 Points: 3,767 Location: United States
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This is bugging me today, for some odd reason. I enjoy writing when I can, and my works (including shorts, in-progress, poems, and a series of novels that will likely never be finished at the rate I'm going...) are online, but in a locked site where I control who has user access (beyond the site's admins, but they have a pretty good notion of personal creative property belonging to the poster).
I've noticed more than a few people posting their creative works here, on an very open forum. It's been fairly well documented over the years that quite a few students turn to the net when in need of term papers or projects they don't care to do, so how do protect your intellectual copyright on these works? It's very easy to google for a poem or short story if you don't want to write one and use it as your own. What do you do to prove it is your original work if you had to?
I'd love to post my novel in-progress on my locked site, so I can get feedback and help through the creative roadblocks, but I also worry about the fact that if I ever DO get to the point I finish it, will it be able to be published if it's been online even in such a secured format?
A closed mind is like a closed book - nothing can be gained if either remains closed.
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 Rank: Advanced Member
Joined: 3/17/2009 Posts: 2,571 Points: 7,862 Location: Colorado, United States
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Are you more concerned with loss of profits from your work, lack of attribution when someone takes it and reuses it, academic dishonesty, lack of control or what else have I forgotten? I think every creator has the right to determine what level of locked-upedness they want to apply to their works, I respect copyrighted works online (although, look at my avatar--just not too closely publishers of Tootles the Train!), but for anything I am likely to compose or write I expect I'll just put it out there, take any publicity it generates, and let the files find their own levels and uses. Of course, I'm not making a living from recordings or writing nor am I likely to do so. Philosophically I'm on the side of the mashers-up who recombine bits and fragments, be they images or sounds or words, into new works.
Your question about publishability of previous web-published works is interesting, but needs a legal mind to offer an informed opinion.
}- Mark -{ ASPARAGUS Asparagus in a lean in a lean to hot. This makes it art and it is wet wet weather wet weather wet. —Gertrude Stein, Tender Buttons
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 Rank: Advanced Member
Joined: 3/17/2009 Posts: 1,221 Points: 3,767 Location: United States
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Luftmarque wrote:Are you more concerned with loss of profits from your work, lack of attribution when someone takes it and reuses it, academic dishonesty, lack of control or what else have I forgotten? I think every creator has the right to determine what level of locked-upedness they want to apply to their works, I respect copyrighted works online (although, look at my avatar--just not too closely publishers of Tootles the Train!), but for anything I am likely to compose or write I expect I'll just put it out there, take any publicity it generates, and let the files find their own levels and uses. Of course, I'm not making a living from recordings or writing nor am I likely to do so. Philosophically I'm on the side of the mashers-up who recombine bits and fragments, be they images or sounds or words, into new works. Pretty much, I think it's the idea of someone taking something that is mine, that means something to me because I wrote it and am proud of it, and then calling it their own or butchering it somehow. And while I don't expect to be a published author in the near or later future, it's still something I ponder; it's a pipe dream, but a dream nonetheless. Quote:Your question about publishability of previous web-published works is interesting, but needs a legal mind to offer an informed opinion. Well, it's both this, publishability (fun word) after posting, even in locked forums, and what happens if someone tries to publish something that is yours? How on EARTH do you prove that one? The latter is more an academic question that rolls around in my head from time to time, how do I prove something is mine without an actual intellectual copyright on it? The former, publishability (still fun to say) is something that I've read has happened, where items cannot be published in book form due to being written online with an audience. I just don't remember any specifics about it. A closed mind is like a closed book - nothing can be gained if either remains closed.
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 Rank: Advanced Member
Joined: 10/15/2009 Posts: 1,570 Points: 4,778 Location: United States
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I tend to disseminate my own works among friends, and that is about where it ends. There are a few sites I post things on publicly, but the majority of those pieces are fan works, using an existing work as a foundation for my own project.
For academic dishonesty, there are a lot of teachers that google search snippets from essays and poems nowadays. There were a few students in one of my high school classes that thought they could get away with it, but they were wrong.
To my knowledge, there are quite a few people who have used some of my older pieces in their own projects. The ones that I'm aware of have always contacted me and asked for permission (under the condition that they give me credit for my own work), which I have always granted. I am not particularly skilled at any of my hobbies at the moment, though, so I tend to not have hopes for making money off of any of my current projects. With that said, I appreciate spreading creativity around, and if a piece of work that I have made public inspires someone and they want to use it as a basis for something of their own, I am almost always willing to help them out.
For purely original pieces of work, posting them on large, public sites with good copyright and content protocols tends to be the way to go. For creative writing, though, it may be nearly impossible to prove if the work is actually yours. For music and graphical art projects, having the original project file you worked in is almost always proof enough that you created it, especially if someone else claiming such a thing cannot produce a similar project file.
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 Rank: Advanced Member
Joined: 12/26/2009 Posts: 247 Points: 762 Location: United States
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nooblet wrote:For music and graphical art projects, having the original project file you worked in is almost always proof enough that you created it, especially if someone else claiming such a thing cannot produce a similar project file. This kind of thing, as well as sending yourself a copy of it in the mail (so it has the timestamp and a seal) is sometimes called the "poor man's copyright" and, as far as I know, is difficult to defend legally. I do not know of any legal precedent for this working. Copyright is getting harder as information gets more connected, but if you're truly worried and want to be able to defend it, register it with whatever copyright office is in your country. At least in the USA, registered copyrights are the best defense. It isn't free, but you can cut the costs somewhat (such as in music, by registering a bunch of works together as an album. Once price but it covers all the constituent parts). Hope this helps?
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 Rank: Advanced Member
Joined: 3/17/2009 Posts: 1,221 Points: 3,767 Location: United States
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Okay, am bumping this one again. A friend of mine, whom I believe is in the industry and has actually been published (whether book or magazine, I can't quite recall), mentioned so long as it was a small and locked forum, it was quite safe to post original works online and still retain future first publishing rights.
Now, another friend said this a VERY hazy area and posting original works online, even locked down to ONLY YOURSELF, constitutes self-publishing and negates first-rights worldwide (as the internet is international). Yet somehow, email squeaks by this, which I find mindboggling. To me, email is almost worse than posting in a locked forum as then the recipients have an actual FILE with your info in it. And I fail to see how any of this is ANY different than giving someone a hard copy to read because you never know what they may do with it!
Does anyone actually know? Online searches are highly misleading and I swear, it doesn't seem ANYONE knows. Short of asking each and every publishing company, what seems to be the best of way of getting the very much needed feedback to an original work without putting first-publishing rights into question and getting shafted by any potential publishing later on, assuming the work itself is publish-worthy?
A closed mind is like a closed book - nothing can be gained if either remains closed.
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Rank: Advanced Member
Joined: 6/2/2009 Posts: 2,841 Points: 8,625 Location: United States, Pacific Northwest
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Raparee,
I strongly suspect this is one in which the litigation is not yet final. Given the increasing importance of electronic communications, it seems plausible to argue posting in a closed forum would be analogous to passing around photocopies in a writing group, where one is looking for critical suggestions. Whether the courts would agree, well that's another matter.
One sees related disagreement in professional journals, with arguments about online releases of data or portions of a study may or may not be considered prior publication. Given what I've seen in this community, I think your best course would be to contact any publishing house of particular interest for their guidelines.
Have you seen any discussion coming from publishing conferences? (I'm assuming there must be some.)
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Rank: Newbie
Joined: 1/19/2012 Posts: 1 Points: 3 Location: Australia
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I have studied copyright a little as being a musician, legal studies student and writer it is very much in my interests to know what rights you have to intellectual property. For a start as you are American, (I checked it changes from country to country), your copyright is instantaneous, from the minute you create something that is considered "intellectual property" it is protected by the the United States copyright laws. No application needed, because of that anything you post online is yours and cannot be published, copied or used without your express permission and if you wished to you could charge them for that use. If someone does copy your work that constitutes a crime and you can sue, regardless of what country they live in. I can almost guarantee that you will never come into contact with a person who wants to use your works in a country where your copyright isn't applicable. I can't even name one.
If you wanted to prove work is yours - presuming it's online - then all you would need is the date you posted it online. If they copied your work then they pretended it was theirs after that date. If there is something you really want to be sure of then there are registers and such for that sort of thing but I'm Australian and any register I would use wouldn't be something available to you.
Hope that helps and sets your mind at ease somewhat although if a student tries to use your work a legal battle might be a little extreme.
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Rank: Advanced Member
Joined: 6/14/2009 Posts: 2,446 Points: 7,192 Location: China
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As a writer my Agent advises:-
Don't send a m/s to a hard-copy publisher once it has appeared on-line: it has already been published.
However, of course, if it has appeared in a book or mag. you're at liberty to re-print it on-line with the appropriate reference.
If I want to get an article/story published in hard copy that has already gone on-line I have to re-write it.
That said, I have often found stuff I've published on-line re-printed on other sites - but so far have always been cited as the writer and the original provenance given. But I have to admit that, deep down, I would have liked to have been asked as, sometimes, depending on the site, one's original intentions can be misconstrued.
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