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If Jesus Really Rose Options
jacobusmaximus
Posted: Saturday, June 14, 2014 6:23:11 AM

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Many thanks, Spiral. It is one of my favourite Hymns. It is full of Praise and re-assurance, but the last verse gives us pause - 'Oh, may I then in Him be found clothed in His righteousness alone..". The assurance is there that we shall be found, of that I have no doubt, but what earthly baggage might we be also wearing? It doesn't bear thinking about.

Ithink - Yes I am proud of my assurance of salvation. Not that I am under the impression that I have done anything to deserve it. On the contrary, I do not deserve to be saved. But I am saved by the Grace of God alone, and I am very proud of that. When I joined Her Majesty's Forces I was given a uniform to wear - long before I had learned to march, to shoot, to salute properly,to improve my manner and my bearing. But I was proud to wear the uniform and determined to do it justice. So it is with the salvation of Christ. I proudly bear His name. I want Him to be proud of me.

Listening - you say you respect my right to believe and live in my chosen comfort zone. Yet your next words clearly show that you do nothing of the kind. You obviously condemn anyone who holds views that are what you would call 'narrow, evangelical', but you have your own beliefs, you say. What is your authority for your beliefs, please? I hold mine from the teachings of Scripture and from the experience of walking in the Light of God. You don't, obviously. So where does your beliefs come from?

I remember, therefore I am.
jacobusmaximus
Posted: Sunday, June 15, 2014 4:08:50 AM

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Re-reading my response to Ithink, above, reminded me that the uniform given me to wear didn't fit properly, and that we raw recruits were all in the same boat as far as that was concerned. The sleeves were too long, the waist too tight and the jackets sagged at the shoulders (and this even applied to my dress uniform which was made to measure!). However, by the time we had completed our two month's initial training the uniforms fitted us perfectly. I didn't think about it at the time, but looking back I see now that our uniforms were made for the people we were to become - not for what we were. If Jesus really rose (and he did)he was preparing us to fit our Resurrection bodies in which to serve God in Heaven.











I remember, therefore I am.
Teluu
Posted: Sunday, June 15, 2014 9:08:31 PM

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Acording to Peter gospel, three soldgiers saw the tumb open and three people emerged and vanish. The reports of his resurrection came from a hysterical female and spread. The talk of his resurrection was foolishness!

I'm a free minded person!
ithink140
Posted: Monday, June 16, 2014 5:25:53 AM

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You wrote this Teluu: Acording to Peter gospel, three soldgiers saw the tumb open and three people emerged and vanish. The reports of his resurrection came from a hysterical female and spread. The talk of his resurrection was foolishness!

Peter did not write a gospel, he wrote to letters and did not write about the witnesses to an empty tomb. Mathew Mark Luke and John did so and their accounts also show that the resurrected Jesus appeared to his disciples on numerous occasions thereafter. At one point to upwards of 500 witness on one occasion


Paul wrote this and

1 Corinthians 15:3-7 (NIVUK)

For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Cephas and then to the Twelve. After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. Then he appeared to James, then to all the



‘hysterical female’ you say? Do I detect a note of disdain or misogyny here?


'Life is too short to be eaten up by hate.'
Absurdicuss
Posted: Tuesday, June 17, 2014 10:09:45 PM

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To be fair I am professing here publicly my belief in Jesus Christ, God incarnate, savior and Lord, King of Kings, Prince of peace who will return again to rule in righteous love. I believe the biblical narrative of history from the Genesis account of creation to the Revelation given to the apostle John on Patmos.

***********************************************

Let us focus solely on the central figure in human history by beginning with some nearly unanimously agreed upon facts from biblical scholars on both sides of the believer equation.

1. Jesus of Nazareth is a historically verified person.

2. He was put to death by crucifixion.

3. On the third day the tomb was found to be empty.

4. The empty tomb does not prove resurrection.


These four points are widely accepted amongst scholars.





"Now" is the eternal present.
jacobusmaximus
Posted: Wednesday, June 18, 2014 2:59:56 AM

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'The empty tomb does not prove resurrection'.

The smoking gun proves nothing either - only that it has recently been fired. But when added to other evidence it points to an undeniable truth. 'Other evidence' in this case includes Jesus' forewarning that he would be crucified and that on the third day he would rise from death. In addition he was seen alive by many people after being buried.

I remember, therefore I am.
tunaafi
Posted: Wednesday, June 18, 2014 5:59:10 AM

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Absurdicuss wrote:

Let us focus solely on the central figure in human history by beginning with some nearly unanimously agreed upon facts from biblical scholars on both sides of the believer equation.

1. Jesus of Nazareth is a historically verified person.

2. He was put to death by crucifixion.

3. On the third day the tomb was found to be empty.

4. The empty tomb does not prove resurrection
These four points are widely accepted amongst scholars.


The first three of those are not widely accepted by scholars.
jacobusmaximus
Posted: Wednesday, June 18, 2014 6:51:36 AM

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tunaafi wrote:
Absurdicuss wrote:

Let us focus solely on the central figure in human history by beginning with some nearly unanimously agreed upon facts from biblical scholars on both sides of the believer equation.

1. Jesus of Nazareth is a historically verified person.

2. He was put to death by crucifixion.

3. On the third day the tomb was found to be empty.

4. The empty tomb does not prove resurrection
These four points are widely accepted amongst scholars.


The first three of those are not widely accepted by scholars.


tunaafi, Abs said biblical scholars. Which biblical scholars are you referring to in your post?

I remember, therefore I am.
ithink140
Posted: Wednesday, June 18, 2014 7:18:19 AM

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TUNA. Pontius Pilate the man who conducted the trial of Jesus, is historically recognised, and Jesus is referred to in The Works of Josephus...I have a copy. Besides which his life and works have affected whole civilisations and changed the course of history.

He started others thinking along different lines.

Will Durant ( 1935-75) an American writer, historian, and philosopher said: “That a few simple men should in one generation have invented so powerful and appealing a personality, so lofty an ethic and so inspiring a vision of human brotherhood, would be a miracle far more incredible than any recorded in the Gospels

The Historians’ History of the World made this comment: “The historical result of Jesus’ activities was more momentous, even from a strictly secular standpoint, than the deeds of any other character of history. A new era, recognised by the chief civilisations of the world, dates from his birth.”

He is referred to by Tacitus ( a first century historian)...Pliny ...Suetonius

Even the calendar was altered in his recognition B.C.E & C.E ... B.C & A.D


NB. Jesus did not die on a cross, he died on a stake. In reference to the instrument of Christ’s death the Bible writers use the noun stauros 27 times the verb stauroo on 46 occasions and xylon five times. Stauros in both Koine and classical Greek means an upright stake and bears no reference to a cross.

The noted Greek scholar W. E. Vine has this to say: Quote.. “STAUROS (σταυρός) denotes, primarily, an upright pale or stake. On such malefactors were nailed for execution. Both the noun and the verb stauroo, to fasten to a stake or pale, are originally to be distinguished from the ecclesiastical form of a two beamed cross.” Greek scholar Vine then mentions the Chaldean origin of the two-piece cross and how it was adopted from the pagans by Christendom in the third century C.E. as a symbol of Christ’s impalement.—Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, 1981, Vol. 1, p. 256.unquote



'Life is too short to be eaten up by hate.'
Absurdicuss
Posted: Wednesday, June 18, 2014 7:26:00 AM

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Exactly J-Max.

I will endeavor to demonstrate that it was the appearances of Christ coupled with the crucifixion and empty tomb, among other evidences, which convinced the disciples and later, Saul of Tarsus, and the skeptical brother of Jesus - James that He was the promised one, the Christ Messiah.

But for now I'm off to work.




"Now" is the eternal present.
tunaafi
Posted: Wednesday, June 18, 2014 3:07:27 PM

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ithink140 wrote:
TUNA. Pontius Pilate the man who conducted the trial of Jesus, is historically recognised, and Jesus is referred to in The Works of Josephus He is referred to by Tacitus ( a first century historian)...Pliny ...Suetonius


Have you read this? http://www.truthbeknown.com/pliny.htm

Quote:
Even the calendar was altered in his recognition B.C.E & C.E ... B.C & A.D


The Christian practice of numbering years from the alleged date of the birth Of JC was widely used only in Christian countries until comparatively recently. Although there are other systems, this year-numbering system is now widely recognised. This is not because of any universal recognition of JC, but because Christian Europeans and their descendants in America conquered/colonised/dominated most of the world by the end of the 19th century.
ithink140
Posted: Wednesday, June 18, 2014 4:21:45 PM

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Yes Tuna I read it and it makes not a jot of difference. All four historians I mentioned referred to Jesus as an historical figure... and no one in their right mind denies that Tacitus Pliny and Suetonius existed as did Josephus. We have Tacitus's writings and Pliny's Naturalis Historia And by Suetonius a set of biographies of twelve successive Roman rulers, from Julius Caesar to Domitian, entitled De Vita Caesarum. I myself have the complete works of Josephus wherein he mentions Jesus.


How you can ignore the impact he had has made on the world is beyond me and the fact that they changed the calendar to accommodate this fact is a powerful indictor of the real existence of Jesus the man. I am convinced.

I repeat this quote since it has such force: Will Durant ( 1935-75) an American writer, historian, and philosopher said: “That a few simple men should in one generation have invented so powerful and appealing a personality, so lofty an ethic and so inspiring a vision of human brotherhood, would be a miracle far more incredible than any recorded in the Gospels

I am happy in my belief in veracity of Christ's existence both in the first century and now.



'Life is too short to be eaten up by hate.'
Listening . . .
Posted: Wednesday, June 18, 2014 6:19:30 PM

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Jacob, You said

"Listening - you say you respect my right to believe and live in my chosen comfort zone. Yet your next words clearly show that you do nothing of the kind. You obviously condemn anyone who holds views that are what you would call 'narrow, evangelical', but you have your own beliefs, you say. What is your authority for your beliefs, please? I hold mine from the teachings of Scripture and from the experience of walking in the Light of God. You don't, obviously. So where does your beliefs come from?"

Apologies if my words were harsh or offensive. I have a very hard time accepting a statement that other beliefs are somehow less powerful than the beliefs that are given from Christ. I was offended to hear "On Christ the solid rock I stand, all other ground is sinking sand." To me this is simply rude as I do not stand on Christ's solid rock. I view all individual beliefs as "solid rock" to the individual.

You antagonize with your scripture as your authority. I will not reveal my authority - it is mine alone and I do not have to prove my authority against yours.

I wish you only the best and only hope that you might consider that your belief system is not necessarily what you think it may be. Mine might not be, either but I live in this world treating others with fairness, kindness, and love. I don't need Jesus to tell me that is the right thing to do.
Tim0101
Posted: Monday, November 24, 2014 9:30:04 AM

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Brick wall faith can not be explained.
jacobusmaximus
Posted: Monday, November 24, 2014 12:09:46 PM

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Tim0101 wrote:
Brick wall faith can not be explained.


Maybe not, but it can be experienced.

I remember, therefore I am.
Harrison P
Posted: Thursday, December 18, 2014 9:28:24 PM

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I believe that all these theories could have happened such as God created the world by how the big bang is described as.
Trichakra
Posted: Thursday, September 15, 2016 12:05:21 AM

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Whats your point? Please clear it..
Absurdicuss
Posted: Sunday, October 02, 2016 1:43:54 AM

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Anyone interested in the question of the authenticity of the gospel of the Christ might find some persuasive arguments in the following works:

Simon Greenleaf - Testimony of the Evangelists. Greenleaf was a prominent legal mind who contributed substantially to the rules of evidence in American jurisprudence.

Lee Strobel - The Case for Christ. Strobel, an investigative journalist set about to determine whether or not there was any compelling evidence for the truth claims and belief in the Christ story.


The question of Jesus is a 50/50 proposition. Either He is or is not who He claims to have been, and is.


"Now" is the eternal present.
Romany
Posted: Sunday, October 02, 2016 5:59:03 AM
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Trichakra,

Just a thought:- it might be a good idea if you look at the dates of some of the threads you come across. This one is two years old and the person whom you are addressing is long gone - hence unable to reply to you.

The thread died a natural death because it was going nowhere - I don't think any of the participants that are still here particularly want to repeat themselves all over again?
Absurdicuss
Posted: Tuesday, October 04, 2016 3:12:20 PM

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Not so fast Rom. We've been rehashing the same core topics as seen here, in one form or another for millennia.

Let's have a revival....Amen?


"Now" is the eternal present.
pedro
Posted: Wednesday, October 05, 2016 6:12:23 AM

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We've been here before but if he rose after 3 days his intestines would have putrified and his pancreas would have begun digesting itself. An open tomb is no more proof of resurrection than the superficial resemblance of surface markings on Mars is proof of canals built by civilised aliens. The real problem, perhaps, is that if you have spent your naive trusting childhood being fed such stuff as truth, it is difficult to summon the will to admit you have been duped for all these years.

All good ideas arrive by chance- Max Ernst
Absinthius
Posted: Wednesday, October 05, 2016 6:25:11 AM

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pedro wrote:
We've been here before but if he rose after 3 days his intestines would have putrified and his pancreas would have begun digesting itself. An open tomb is no more proof of resurrection than the superficial resemblance of surface markings on Mars is proof of canals built by civilised aliens. The real problem, perhaps, is that if you have spent your naive trusting childhood being fed such stuff as truth, it is difficult to summon the will to admit you have been duped for all these years.


Unless, of course, the tomb was adequately refrigerated. Did anyone check for any power cords or large batteries when investigating the disappearance of his body? Also an incubator should have been present, one that should have been set to about 37 degrees.

Look, how about this? Let's pretend we've had the row and I've won. See? It saves a lot of effort.
jacobusmaximus
Posted: Wednesday, October 05, 2016 6:27:27 AM

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So, Pedro, what about people who come to Christ in adulthood, having never before heard of Christ?

Or, what about grown men and women who have spent their lives denying Christ suddenly accepting Him as Saviour and Lord?

And if God can raise the dead it is not beyond his capabilities to preserve his internal (and external) organs for as long as it takes. Jesus did that very thing with Lazarus.

I would offer you chapter and verse, Pedro, but you are probably quite familiar with the relevant Scripture.

I remember, therefore I am.
pedro
Posted: Wednesday, October 05, 2016 6:35:45 AM

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I have known a few such, jacobusmaximus. A common thread with two of them was being recently dumped by their all-time one and only loves. I'm not saying that that is a universal, but conversions, be they religious, political or ideological, are usually pretty emotive things. Crowds help too as Billy Graham and various cult leaders would have been able tell you.

All good ideas arrive by chance- Max Ernst
jacobusmaximus
Posted: Thursday, October 06, 2016 5:07:30 AM

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pedro wrote:
I have known a few such, jacobusmaximus. A common thread with two of them was being recently dumped by their all-time one and only loves. I'm not saying that that is a universal, but conversions, be they religious, political or ideological, are usually pretty emotive things. Crowds help too as Billy Graham and various cult leaders would have been able tell you.



34Do not assume that I have come to bring peace to the earth; I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35For I have come to turn ‘A man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. 36A man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’…

Jesus never did promise that following him would be easy.

I remember, therefore I am.
Absinthius
Posted: Thursday, October 06, 2016 5:27:57 AM

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jacobusmaximus wrote:
pedro wrote:
I have known a few such, jacobusmaximus. A common thread with two of them was being recently dumped by their all-time one and only loves. I'm not saying that that is a universal, but conversions, be they religious, political or ideological, are usually pretty emotive things. Crowds help too as Billy Graham and various cult leaders would have been able tell you.



34Do not assume that I have come to bring peace to the earth; I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35For I have come to turn ‘A man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. 36A man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’…

Jesus never did promise that following him would be easy.


Your input really doesn't place your faith in a good light Jacobus, what kind of person reads the above quote and gets inspired to follow such barbarism?.. How could you ever entertain the idea that this is not morally objectionable?.

Look, how about this? Let's pretend we've had the row and I've won. See? It saves a lot of effort.
Absurdicuss
Posted: Thursday, October 06, 2016 6:40:58 AM

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Persons expressing belief in the Gospel of Christ, by default, also believe in the supernatural.

All that aside, I am proud to have elicited a serious response from the whimsical and witty mind of our one and only pedro.

Absinth - the sword of "belief" cuts both ways, turning even loved ones against each other.

Belief underpins all that we call knowledge.

Christ made absolute claims about his identity, his authority, his mission statement. The gospel accounts of his life, though intensely scrutinized for millennia are incredibly well vetted.

Yet at the end of the day "faith" in scriptural truth is required, just as "faith" in evolution theory.

I understand your claim of evolutionary factuality via the scientific method, but there remain vast gaps therein that can only be bridged by belief, faith.

Consider, if you will, that arriving at a sincere belief in a thing is not necessarily a casual acquisition.

The homicidal jihadist bomber annihilates himself in sincerity. He, apparently, really believes in a 72 virgin welcoming.


"Now" is the eternal present.
Absinthius
Posted: Thursday, October 06, 2016 6:55:54 AM

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Absurdicuss wrote:
Persons expressing belief in the Gospel of Christ, by default, also believe in the supernatural.

All that aside, I am proud to have elicited a serious response from the whimsical and witty mind of our one and only pedro.

Absinth - the sword of "belief" cuts both ways, turning even loved ones against each other.

Belief underpins all that we call knowledge.

Christ made absolute claims about his identity, his authority, his mission statement. The gospel accounts of his life, though intensely scrutinized for millennia are incredibly well vetted.

Yet at the end of the day "faith" in scriptural truth is required, just as "faith" in evolution theory.

I understand your claim of evolutionary factuality via the scientific method, but there remain vast gaps therein that can only be bridged by belief, faith.

Consider, if you will, that arriving at a sincere belief in a thing is not necessarily a casual acquisition.

The homicidal jihadist bomber annihilates himself in sincerity. He, apparently, really believes in a 72 virgin welcoming.


The quote doesn't talk about a figurative sword, that is your interpretation, your choice. Religious people jump through many of these hoops in an attempt to defend the violence and horrible parts of scripture.

Absolute faith is precisely what I object to, faith by its definition is not based on evidence. When faith leads to horrible deeds that impact others, there is no justification. None.

I'll pay you the respect of assuming you are very well aware evolution has absolutely nothing to with faith. This topic has been tackled and exhausted in plenty of literature.

Look, how about this? Let's pretend we've had the row and I've won. See? It saves a lot of effort.
jacobusmaximus
Posted: Thursday, October 06, 2016 4:16:17 PM

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Absinthius wrote:
jacobusmaximus wrote:
pedro wrote:
I have known a few such, jacobusmaximus. A common thread with two of them was being recently dumped by their all-time one and only loves. I'm not saying that that is a universal, but conversions, be they religious, political or ideological, are usually pretty emotive things. Crowds help too as Billy Graham and various cult leaders would have been able tell you.



34Do not assume that I have come to bring peace to the earth; I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35For I have come to turn ‘A man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. 36A man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’…

Jesus never did promise that following him would be easy.


Your input really doesn't place your faith in a good light Jacobus, what kind of person reads the above quote and gets inspired to follow such barbarism?.. How could you ever entertain the idea that this is not morally objectionable?.


God's Will is that all human beings should spend eternity with Him. If He has to break up a relationship to achieve His aim then He will, scripture teaches. Which is better - a happy relationship for a lifetime or a happy relationship for eternity?

I remember, therefore I am.
Absurdicuss
Posted: Thursday, October 06, 2016 6:59:18 PM

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Is faith ever absolute Absi. There's always a shade of doubt.

Yes, endless debate, millions of pages of literature. Evolutionists BELIEVE that facts confirm their beliefs while creationists, citing the very same literature BELIEVE the opposite.

Evolutionary theory i.e. abiogenesis is unprovable, yet many accept by faith that it will one day become fact.

But the OP asked: what if Jesus really rose.

If the Christ gospel was true would you be a Christian?






"Now" is the eternal present.
jacobusmaximus
Posted: Friday, October 07, 2016 4:05:21 AM

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Good to hear from you Absurdicus. As you say, doubt is always present, at least to some degree. When the Churches were full twice or three times a day they were mainly full of doubting people. Their doubts, however, did not stop them walking the walk.


I remember, therefore I am.
Absurdicuss
Posted: Friday, October 07, 2016 10:38:34 PM

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Thanks, J-Max. No doubt, absolute faith is impossible. (unavoidable double negative pun?)

Mark 9:23 "Everything is possible for one who believes."


Wouldn't it be grand if we could act in perfect faith as Jesus did?










"Now" is the eternal present.
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