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that vs. what Options
nima_persian
Posted: Friday, May 9, 2014 4:12:54 AM
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Money is all that I need.

Money is all what I need.

Which one is right? or which one have not you ever seen? and is there any difference between them?



Much Ado About Nothing (TO BE OR NOT TO BE).
frosty rime
Posted: Friday, May 9, 2014 7:08:48 AM

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hi

"MOney is all what I need" is wrong.
=> Money is all I need.

"MOney is all that I need" is correct.

devil rides vocabularies.
nima_persian
Posted: Friday, May 9, 2014 8:27:45 AM
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Thank you so much.

But, why is it wrong?Think

Much Ado About Nothing (TO BE OR NOT TO BE).
Momsey
Posted: Friday, May 9, 2014 9:55:28 AM
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what is a question word. What do you need? I need money. What money? I need the money for a deposit. Well, that is all the money that I can give you. Do you need anything else? No, money is all I need.
coag
Posted: Friday, May 9, 2014 10:14:28 AM

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Hello Momsay,

Are you a native English speaker?

Regards,

coag
Chessapprentice
Posted: Friday, May 9, 2014 10:22:00 AM

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As a matter of fact, "what" is commonly used as a relative pronoun in many nonstandard varieties of English, as one can easily confirm by taking a look at the definition of the word on this very website: http://www.thefreedictionary.com/what (def. 4). However, this usage is unacceptable to traditional grammar.

"SI VIS PACEM PARA BELLUM."
frosty rime
Posted: Friday, May 9, 2014 10:46:21 AM

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It's because 'what' already contains 'all' in itself.
When 'What' is used as a relative pronoun, it equals "the thing which".
"All:" in the sentence we are discussing plays the same role as "the thing".

However, I become dumbstruck and am left speechless to find the following sentence "This is the man what I saw in the park yesterday" in the TDF of which link already is given in Cehssapprentice's thread.

I think the sentence should be "This is the man that/who(m) I saw in the park yesterday."

Think Think

I think we should wait for more answers to this matter.





devil rides vocabularies.
Chessapprentice
Posted: Friday, May 9, 2014 10:50:37 AM

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Why, lights, what's the surprise? I'm not even a native speaker of English, and, notwithstanding, have come across this usage quite a few times. It's just the way people talk. Tune in your ears.

"SI VIS PACEM PARA BELLUM."
frosty rime
Posted: Friday, May 9, 2014 10:50:46 AM

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Do you know why?

It's because the TFD is wrong.


Whistle Whistle

devil rides vocabularies.
thar
Posted: Friday, May 9, 2014 10:55:33 AM

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Wot that quote is, bruvver, is not any old 'non-standard English', it is wot us yobs call "uneduca'ed slang".

Seriously, I don't think many would claim it is an kind of dialect - it is just very bad English. And a lot of English-speaking people speak very 'bad' English at times. But most know it is non-standard, and use it only in just informal situations.

If you ignore the terrible grammar of that quote, and just treat is as a natural variation, then yes, it is not uncommon. But I bet that a lot of people who would say that in the street to their (edit - their friends) would speak much better in a different situation. If any native speaker were unable to say that sentence correctly in the appropriate situation it would show them to pretty uneducated, and not very bright.
nima_persian
Posted: Friday, May 9, 2014 10:55:50 AM
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nima_persian wrote:

Money is all that I need.

Money is all what I need.

Which one is right? or which one have not you ever seen? and is there any difference between them?





If we consider the word all as an adverb, not as a noun, what would you like to say?

Much Ado About Nothing (TO BE OR NOT TO BE).
frosty rime
Posted: Friday, May 9, 2014 10:57:26 AM

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thar wrote:
Wot that quote is, bruvver, is not any old 'non-standard English', it is wot us yobs call "uneduca'ed slang".

Seriously, I don't think many would claim it is an kind of dialect - it is just very bad English. And a lot of English-speaking people speak very 'bad' English at times. But most know it is non-standard, and use it only in just informal situations.

If you ignore the terrible grammar of that quote, and just treat is as a natural variation, then yes, it is not uncommon. But I bet that a lot of people who would say that in the street to their would speak much better in a different situation. If any native speaker were unable to say that sentence correctly in the appropriate situation it would show them to pretty uneducated, and not very bright.




Applause Applause Applause

devil rides vocabularies.
Chessapprentice
Posted: Friday, May 9, 2014 10:58:32 AM

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nima_persian, you should use the first sentence, but the second does exit, and they mean the same.

"SI VIS PACEM PARA BELLUM."
Chessapprentice
Posted: Friday, May 9, 2014 11:06:05 AM

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And lights, I suggest you take a look at this article, on page 18: http://www-personal.umich.edu/~mdover/website/Social%20Welfare%20Policy%20Main%20Folder/Professional%20Writing%20for%20Policy%20Practice/checklistPDF-Urban_AAE.pdf, and realize there's much more to this issue than just "bad English". However, as the table there shows, backed by sociolinguistic research, that feature seems to have been receding lately from both Southern American English and AAVE.

"SI VIS PACEM PARA BELLUM."
nima_persian
Posted: Friday, May 9, 2014 11:30:57 AM
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nima_persian wrote:
nima_persian wrote:

Money is all that I need.

Money is all what I need.

Which one is right? or which one have not you ever seen? and is there any difference between them?





If we consider the word all as an adverb, not as a noun, what would you like to say?


Much Ado About Nothing (TO BE OR NOT TO BE).
frosty rime
Posted: Friday, May 9, 2014 11:59:32 AM

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Chessapprentice wrote:
And lights, I suggest you take a look at this article, on page 18: http://www-personal.umich.edu/~mdover/website/Social%20Welfare%20Policy%20Main%20Folder/Professional%20Writing%20for%20Policy%20Practice/checklistPDF-Urban_AAE.pdf, and realize there's much more to this issue than just "bad English". However, as the table there shows, backed by sociolinguistic research, that feature seems to have been receding lately from both Southern American English and AAVE.


I bet you are very proud to have street dogs' ears.
Or possibly you hear yourself saying it all the time.

devil rides vocabularies.
Luker4
Posted: Friday, May 9, 2014 12:11:11 PM

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[nima_persian wrote:]
[nima_persian wrote:]
[nima_persian wrote:]

Money is all that I need. sounds good

Money is all what I need. sounds bad

Which one is right? or which one have not you ever seen? and is there any difference between them?







If we consider the word all as an adverb, not as a noun, what would you like to say?


You can say "money is all I need" simpler way

Chessapprentice
Posted: Friday, May 9, 2014 4:36:35 PM

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All right, lights, you're right when you say that the selfsame person that uses "what" as a relative pronoun is not likely to make the same choice in a moral formal situation. Otherwise, they could indeed be considered uneducated by most people, since this grammatical feature occurs mainly in lesser-educated speech, but not only. You were precise when you mentioned that this way of speaking is more commonly found in street talk--this is actually a well-known stereotype. This is the point I was trying to make. Both "that" and "what" functioning as relative pronouns are possibilities allowed by the inner linguistic system of the English language--forget about traditional grammar when I say that. The question regarding why one is preferred over another has nothing to do with one being correct and the other wrong. This choice is conditioned by historical and socioeconomic reasons--that is, what are the varieties used by the middle class. These varieties will be considered correct simply because they are the ones used by those with more power in society. If you analyze it with an open mind, you'll notice that the sentence "It's the poor what gets the blame" has the same effectiveness as "It's the poor who gets the blame" does--it gets its meaning across. In fact, the grammatical feature you called "bad English" is very common in other languages, as a speaker of any romance language knows--in Spanish, for example, the word "que" is both a relative pronoun as well the equivalent of "what" in standard English. The French, however, being more logical (since you like stereotypes) have specialized the uses of the word: "que" for "what", and "qui" for "that, who". Therefore, if we were to take your remarks to the extreme, we would have to consider all Romance languages incorrect, illogical tongues, all spoken by not very bright people.

"SI VIS PACEM PARA BELLUM."
Chessapprentice
Posted: Friday, May 9, 2014 4:42:10 PM

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PS. I would like very much to be able to use "what" as a relative pronoun and other features of "street talk". But unfortunately, they only teach standard English in school. Furthermore, I would have to belong to these groups to be a legitimate user of their varieties.

"SI VIS PACEM PARA BELLUM."
Luker4
Posted: Saturday, May 10, 2014 7:01:56 AM

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"Money is all what I need" I don't think this sentence is very romantic Whistle Whistle
Jennifer Cummins
Posted: Tuesday, February 5, 2019 2:38:15 PM
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According to Michael Swan, "what" can be replaced with "the thing that" so for example:

Money is what I need --> Money is (the thing that) I need.

You can also think of it as the answer to a question:

What do I need? Money.

Money is what I need.

When we use "that", it is a restrictive adjective clause that describes the noun in further detail:

Money is a thing. It is a thing I need.

Money is a thing that I need.

You cannot replace "that" with "the thing that" in this sentence, as seen below:

Money is a thing the thing that I need. WRONG

So you cannot use "what" here either:

Money is the thing what I need. WRONG



Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Wednesday, February 6, 2019 3:12:43 AM

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Hello Jennifer.
Welcome to the forum.

You are right - "what" can be replaced by "the thing that" (or "the thing which"). And your examples are correct, too.

Money is what I need = Money is the thing that I need = Money is the thing which I need = Money is the thing I need. (Either
'that' or 'which' can be used in restrictive relative clauses - or nothing, sometimes - but only "comma which . . . comma" in non-restrictive clauses.)


However, the original sentence is "Money is all that I need".
The sentence being questioned is "Money is all what I need."

One could not say "Money is all the thing that I need"



Wyrd bið ful aræd - bull!
Romany
Posted: Thursday, February 7, 2019 10:38:16 AM
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"It's the poor what gets the blame" is a line from a song concerning the difference between rich and poor. It's deliberately written like that as it's the poor, uneducated person who is saying it.

And that's the point. Just because Thar mentioned this form being used "in the street" - does not suggest it is "street slang". He meant that, with their mates, uneducated people do say it - and all manner of grotesque grammar! But if they had to speak to anyone formally, they would speak more slowly, think about what they are saying, and make the attempt to "talk proper".

If they didn't know it's usage was limited only to those who were uneducated...it would merely prove that they themselves were of that group.

I see that even the dictionary entry above referred to it being "non-standard", so am at a loss to know why it was included: - except if it is very commonly used error in the USA - as "Who done it?" is in England, and "I don't want to, but." in Australia.

Street slang is a kind of dialect with it's own "rules", syntax and vocabulary. One still has to learn it. Whereas bad grammar such as that we are discussing is just that. Bad grammar.

Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Sunday, February 10, 2019 1:21:23 PM

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Chessapprentice wrote:
. . . taking a look at the definition of the word on this very website: http://www.thefreedictionary.com/what (def. 4). However, this usage is unacceptable to traditional grammar.
Yes, That's true, the Collins Dictionary, on that page, shows:
Quote:
4. not standard which, who, or that, when used as relative pronouns: this is the man what I saw in the park yesterday.

However, if you look further in Collins (on the same page in The Free Dictionary), you will see this note:
Quote:
Be Careful!
Don't use 'what' in defining or non-defining relative clauses. Don't say, for example, 'The man what you met is my brother' or 'The book what you lent me is very good'. Use who, which, or that, or don't use a relative pronoun at all. For example, say 'The man who you met is my brother' or 'The man you met is my brother'.


Wyrd bið ful aræd - bull!
Jai Krishan
Posted: Monday, February 11, 2019 5:51:45 AM

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Thank you for your article. I have read through some similar topics! However, your article gave me a very special impression, unlike other articles. I hope you continue to have valuable articles like this or more to share with everyone!
Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Monday, February 11, 2019 6:30:49 PM

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Jai Krishan wrote:
Thank you for your article. I have read through some similar topics! However, your article gave me a very special impression, unlike other articles. I hope you continue to have valuable articles like this or more to share with everyone!
Hello Jai Krishan.
Welcome to the forum.

The Collins COBUILD English Usage is quoted in many (but not all) pages in The Free Dictionary. - it is particularly useful in questions concerning "small common words" - who/whom, that, which, what, and so on.
It has short articles describing how these words are used - which is much more useful than a simple definition, as you see in most dictionaries.



Wyrd bið ful aræd - bull!
Andrewsam1
Posted: Monday, April 1, 2019 5:15:54 AM
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Money is all what I need" I don't think this sentence is very romantic
BobShilling
Posted: Monday, April 1, 2019 5:29:26 AM
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Andrewsam1 wrote:
Money is all what I need" I don't think this sentence is very romantic
It's not correct, either, as we were told nearly five years ago.
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