The Free Dictionary  
mailing list For webmasters
Welcome Guest Forum Search | Active Topics | Members

DOES GOD EXISTS Options
idk
Posted: Friday, April 03, 2015 7:19:00 AM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 7/29/2014
Posts: 1,144
Neurons: 5,470
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Jacobusmaximus,

You sound as if you are a preacher?

So I have a question for you. Why is that when people believe that the Bible is the word of God that they pick and choose only the parts they believe when they quote it as 'proof' of the existence of God. Other parts are ignored.

Do YOU really believe that the Bible is the word of God and is not just a history book full of allegories and fables meant to teach?





It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so. Anon
jacobusmaximus
Posted: Friday, April 03, 2015 7:24:40 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 4/17/2009
Posts: 10,895
Neurons: 341,278
Location: Glasgow, Scotland, United Kingdom
Helenej wrote:
jacobusmaximus wrote:
It's that yawning gulf again between Believers and non-Believers.
If people were all alike, would it be possible for us all to enjoy each other's company, disputing here?

Speaking in worldly terms, if people were all 'nice' I am sure we could all get along fine and engage in disputes without falling out. But in Spiritual terms, people are all alike - they are all sinners, whether they are in Christ or not, and sinners sin because they are sinners, not sinners because they sin. However much alike we are we are still human, subject to human weaknesses of fear, suspicion, jealousy and so on. These weaknesses cause us to fall out with one another, no matter how 'nice' we are, or try to be.

It occurs to me, Helene, that I should say a word about the term 'in Christ' as it might seem odd to someone who does not feel comfortable with Scripture. At the time of the Flood, those who were in the Ark with Noah were saved. Those who were not in the Ark perished. So if you are in Christ you will be saved. If you are not in Christ you will perish.


jacobusmaximus wrote:
Helenej wrote:
Why are there so many non-believers who are good people and who will never kill, steal, bit or commit adultery?
How can you judge who is a non-believer?
I was talking about my relatives, friends and neighbours, so I know that for sure.


jacobusmaximus wrote:
They are still sinners and they will still sin but if they keep doing sins they are not Believers.
Then you are not a believer either. If you were a believer, you wouldn't call others' opinions 'absolute nonsense' and 'crap'.

So now you are an expert on Spirituality Helene? I am a Believer, and if I think certain opinions are absolute nonsense or crap I will say so. If such terms are unjustified I will answer to God - not to you.


jacobusmaximus wrote:
There is no order such as you have given in the process of becoming a Christian. It all happens at the same moment.
How do you know? (Guess if I'm 'avin' a laff askin' this question).


jacobusmaximus wrote:
Accepting Christ as your saviour means repenting (turning away from) your sins and submitting your life to God.
If I have succeeded in repenting my sins and turning away from them, then, I guess, my heart is pretty good. I wonder what change God is going to bring in my heart after my heart has become good? (Your words: "God can bring about a change in the heart of man to make things better").


I hope that one day you will find out how God can change you once you are in Christ.

I remember, therefore I am.
jacobusmaximus
Posted: Friday, April 03, 2015 7:38:17 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 4/17/2009
Posts: 10,895
Neurons: 341,278
Location: Glasgow, Scotland, United Kingdom
idk wrote:
Jacobusmaximus,

You sound as if you are a preacher?

I am a retired Lay Preacher.

So I have a question for you. Why is that when people believe that the Bible is the word of God that they pick and choose only the parts they believe when they quote it as 'proof' of the existence of God. Other parts are ignored.

This is a big question. Believing that the Bible is the word of God is only the first step in understanding the ways of Christ. Like having a book on Mathematics. You still have to learn all that it means. It is a common error, even amongst devout Believers, to base a theory - even a sermon - on a single Bible verse or portion of Scripture. When you leave out other parts that's when your theory collapses, like a bridge or other building where the Engineer has missed or ignored certain structural calculations. This is why, in the Reformed Christian Church, we do not simply accept the Preacher's word. We have, or should have, our Bibles opened in front of us.

Do YOU really believe that the Bible is the word of God and is not just a history book full of allegories and fables meant to teach?


I really believe that the Bible is the inspired word of God.


I remember, therefore I am.
Helenej
Posted: Friday, April 03, 2015 8:30:29 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 9/24/2013
Posts: 1,595
Neurons: 8,375
Location: Kiev, Kyiv City, Ukraine
jacobusmaximus wrote:
So now you are an expert on Spirituality Helene? I am a Believer, and if I think certain opinions are absolute nonsense or crap I will say so. If such terms are unjustified I will answer to God - not to you.

Okay, I do not insist on your answering if you don't wish. Just listen to me.

If you call someone's opinion 'absolute nonsense' or 'crap', you actually say in a rude form that that person is stupid. Moreover, you said those humiliating words publicly. I don't think you would feel good if anyone said the same about your mental abilities. I'm sure you would feel humiliated, too. Your precious textbook teaches you , "All those things, then, which you would have men do to you, even so do you to them: because this is the law and the prophets." (Matthew, 7:12). You make sins by violating the law. Those who make sins are not believers, therefore you are not a believer. (Your words: " They are still sinners and they will still sin but if they keep doing sins they are not Believers.")

P.S. Well, when you admit that, Jacob, get into our boat: at least it's funnier here.
:)
jacobusmaximus
Posted: Friday, April 03, 2015 10:17:58 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 4/17/2009
Posts: 10,895
Neurons: 341,278
Location: Glasgow, Scotland, United Kingdom
Helenej wrote:
jacobusmaximus wrote:
So now you are an expert on Spirituality Helene? I am a Believer, and if I think certain opinions are absolute nonsense or crap I will say so. If such terms are unjustified I will answer to God - not to you.

Okay, I do not insist on your answering if you don't wish. Just listen to me.

If you call someone's opinion 'absolute nonsense' or 'crap', you actually say in a rude form that that person is stupid.

No I don't, Helene. I am referring to the opinion, not the person.



Moreover, you said those humiliating words publicly.

Opinions expressed on an open Forum invite open responses. This Forum has a facility for sending and receiving Private Messages if preferred.


I don't think you would feel good if anyone said the same about your mental abilities.

I have not referred in any way to the mental abilities of any Poster.


I'm sure you would feel humiliated, too.

No. Your posts, Helene, are about as rude as I have experienced so far on this Forum and I don't feel humiliated.


Your precious textbook teaches you....

My precious textbook? Not yours? Do you mean the Bible you hate and laugh at? When you live by it Helene, you may quote it to me. Until then I would ask you not to address me on this matter again as I shall not address you.


"All those things, then, which you would have men do to you, even so do you to them: because this is the law and the prophets." (Matthew, 7:12). You make sins by violating the law. Those who make sins are not believers, therefore you are not a believer. (Your words: " They are still sinners and they will still sin but if they keep doing sins they are not Believers.")

P.S. Well, when you admit that, Jacob, get into our boat: at least it's funnier here.
:)


I remember, therefore I am.
Helenej
Posted: Friday, April 03, 2015 3:23:38 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 9/24/2013
Posts: 1,595
Neurons: 8,375
Location: Kiev, Kyiv City, Ukraine
jacobusmaximus wrote:
Helenej wrote:
If you call someone's opinion 'absolute nonsense' or 'crap', you actually say in a rude form that that person is stupid.
No I don't, Helene. I am referring to the opinion, not the person.

Opinions aren't birds in the air, they all belong to people. By criticizing an opinion, you indirectly criticize mental abilities of the person who has expressed it.
Also, when criticizing an opinion, considerate people try to mind their words, let alone devout people.



jacobusmaximus wrote:
Helenej wrote:
Moreover, you said those humiliating words publicly.
Opinions expressed on an open Forum invite open responses.

You are right, but for this reason people ought to mind their words even more carefully.


jacobusmaximus wrote:
Helenej wrote:
I don't think you would feel good if anyone said the same about your mental abilities.
I have not referred in any way to the mental abilities of any Poster.

See what I wrote above.


jacobusmaximus wrote:
Your posts, Helene, are about as rude as I have experienced so far on this Forum ...

My posts are rude? If so, I'm ready to repent my sins right away.
Could you kindly name the words or phrases in my posts that are rude so that I can start improving immediately?

I wonder if they are as rude as your 'absolute nonsense' and 'crap'?


jacobusmaximus wrote:
Do you mean the Bible you hate and laugh at?

You think if you find interest in worshiping inanimate objects, like, flower pots, then others should be interested in hatred of them, too? Believe me, I would never spend my emotional energy on relationship with things.


jacobusmaximus wrote:
When you live by it Helene, you may quote it to me. Until then I would ask you not to address me on this matter again as I shall not address you.

Jacob, God teaches you to "have love for your neighbour as for yourself " (Matthew, 22:39), and you even forbid me to talk to you. Are you sure you are a believer?
Moreover, you've chosen to participate in a public forum and a public forum implies that any participant has the right to express their opinions and comment on others' sayings.


Epiphileon
Posted: Saturday, April 04, 2015 6:23:57 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 3/22/2009
Posts: 3,937
Neurons: 57,384
Jacobmaximus wrote:
You are saying that Jesus was not the Christ. Indeed you imply that all the claims he made for himself are bunkum. That makes Jesus out to be supremely evil.


I remember this as the Lord, liar, or lunatic argument, it was a chapter in a book I read by Josh McDowell, "Evidence that Demands a Verdict." To a believer this seems like an iron clad argument, I know I thought so. The problem is that as a believer you assume that the Gospels are an accurate account, of what a perhaps actual person said. I would not dispute that a person named Jesus existed in the first century, whether he actually said every word that comes to us in the Gospels though is highly disputable.

The story of the Gospels, and the formation of the early church, could easily come about by entirely human agency. Jesus may even have been an itinerant preacher, the Sermon on the Mount, and the parables, may even have been spoken by him. I imagine if someone(s) was inclined at that time to improve the plight of the common Jew, and rejected the Jew/Gentile division, that embellishing the story of this mans life, in order to bring about a new social structure, and or belief set to address that issue would have been an appealing prospect. That is just one possibility that I came up with, entirely off the cuff.
Christianity came to be by the work of the same forces that have led to all religions, and it makes perfect sense as the next step after mono-theism and the external locus of control that the Old Testament describes. The progression to an internal locus of control, which is clearly what is taught in the New Testament, also makes perfect sense in the evolution of mind.

So no I am not implying that Jesus was a liar or a lunatic, only that the claims made of him in the Bible are not true.

That entire issue though is not why I could no longer believe in Him. It was taking the Bible as a whole, and its own testimony that it is the word of God, that caused the initial destruction of faith. I do not know how you see evolution and the Bible as compatible, from my understanding of it, they clearly are not. I believe the trend within Christendom to make this concession is a compromise. A compromise of necessity so that folks whose nature demands rationality of their beliefs can continue to accept the Bible as what it claims.

Since the initial destruction of my faith, many more reasons why the God of the Bible does not make sense have become apparent. Going into all of those is unnecessary. If evolution happened the Bible has a major error. If the Bible has such an error it cannot be the word of the God it describes. If the Bible is not the word of God, then it is of the same origin and authority of all the other various existent religions' documents, and offers no evidence for the existence of God, or gods for that matter.

I do not believe in the God of the Bible, I reach that conclusion by reason alone, there is no faith involved.



Question authority. How do you know, that you know, what you know?
jacobusmaximus
Posted: Sunday, April 05, 2015 3:40:50 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 4/17/2009
Posts: 10,895
Neurons: 341,278
Location: Glasgow, Scotland, United Kingdom
Epiphileon wrote:
Jacobmaximus wrote:
You are saying that Jesus was not the Christ. Indeed you imply that all the claims he made for himself are bunkum. That makes Jesus out to be supremely evil.


I remember this as the Lord, liar, or lunatic argument, it was a chapter in a book I read by Josh McDowell, "Evidence that Demands a Verdict." To a believer this seems like an iron clad argument, I know I thought so. The problem is that as a believer you assume that the Gospels are an accurate account, of what a perhaps actual person said. I would not dispute that a person named Jesus existed in the first century, whether he actually said every word that comes to us in the Gospels though is highly disputable.

Not just highly disputable, but never claimed anywhere in Scripture. The Gospels are according to Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. Although of the utmost importance and regarded as reliable enough to be included in the Biblical canon, they were never meant to stand alone, but to be understood in the light of the whole body of Scripture. It is a common error to hang your hat on one verse, one portion, or one aspect of Scripture. People who do ultimately find they have chosen a rubber hook.


The story of the Gospels, and the formation of the early church, could easily come about by entirely human agency. Jesus may even have been an itinerant preacher, the Sermon on the Mount, and the parables, may even have been spoken by him. I imagine if someone(s) was inclined at that time to improve the plight of the common Jew, and rejected the Jew/Gentile division, that embellishing the story of this mans life, in order to bring about a new social structure, and or belief set to address that issue would have been an appealing prospect. That is just one possibility that I came up with, entirely off the cuff.
Christianity came to be by the work of the same forces that have led to all religions, and it makes perfect sense as the next step after mono-theism and the external locus of control that the Old Testament describes. The progression to an internal locus of control, which is clearly what is taught in the New Testament, also makes perfect sense in the evolution of mind.

So no I am not implying that Jesus was a liar or a lunatic, only that the claims made of him in the Bible are not true.

That entire issue though is not why I could no longer believe in Him. It was taking the Bible as a whole, and its own testimony that it is the word of God, that caused the initial destruction of faith. I do not know how you see evolution and the Bible as compatible, from my understanding of it, they clearly are not. I believe the trend within Christendom to make this concession is a compromise. A compromise of necessity so that folks whose nature demands rationality of their beliefs can continue to accept the Bible as what it claims.

I am genuinely in the dark about your assertion that the Bible is its own testimony that it is the Word of God. How do you arrive at that opinion, please?


Since the initial destruction of my faith, many more reasons why the God of the Bible does not make sense have become apparent. Going into all of those is unnecessary. If evolution happened the Bible has a major error. If the Bible has such an error it cannot be the word of the God it describes. If the Bible is not the word of God, then it is of the same origin and authority of all the other various existent religions' documents, and offers no evidence for the existence of God, or gods for that matter.

I do not believe in the God of the Bible, I reach that conclusion by reason alone, there is no faith involved.


Before the destruction of your faith in Christ did you Believe all that the Bible said about Jesus? I mean, did you Believe in your heart (and did you teach your students) that Jesus was born of the Virgin, turned water into wine, raised the dead, walked on water, rose from the dead and ascended to Heaven? If you did believe these and other such claims made about Jesus, did you come to that belief by reason or by faith?

I remember, therefore I am.
Epiphileon
Posted: Sunday, April 05, 2015 5:38:44 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 3/22/2009
Posts: 3,937
Neurons: 57,384
jacobusmaximus wrote:
Epiphileon wrote:
Jacobmaximus wrote:
You are saying that Jesus was not the Christ. Indeed you imply that all the claims he made for himself are bunkum. That makes Jesus out to be supremely evil.


I remember this as the "Lord, liar, or lunatic argument," it was a chapter in a book I read by Josh McDowell, "Evidence that Demands a Verdict." To a believer this seems like an iron clad argument, I know I thought so. The problem is that as a believer you assume that the Gospels are an accurate account, of what a perhaps actual person said. I would not dispute that a person named Jesus existed in the first century, whether he actually said every word that comes to us in the Gospels though is highly disputable.

Not just highly disputable, but never claimed anywhere in Scripture. The Gospels are according to Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.

Nor did I intend to say that they do stand alone only that, in the context of the "Lord, liar, lunatic, argument," only if Jesus made the claims he is purported to have, that the argument makes any sense at all.

So no I am not implying that Jesus was a liar or a lunatic, only that the claims made of him in the Bible are not true.
The quoted portion of what I wrote above, was in direct counterpoint to an assertion that you had made, do you see how my counterpoint is valid? One of the problems I have with such discussions is that when I make counterpoints, they are often not directly replied to.

That entire issue though is not why I could no longer believe in Him. It was taking the Bible as a whole, and its own testimony that it is the word of God, that caused the initial destruction of faith. I do not know how you see evolution and the Bible as compatible, from my understanding of it, they clearly are not. I believe the trend within Christendom to make this concession is a compromise. A compromise of necessity so that folks whose nature demands rationality of their beliefs can continue to accept the Bible as what it claims.

I am genuinely in the dark about your assertion that the Bible is its own testimony that it is the Word of God. How do you arrive at that opinion, please?

There is actually an extensive argument for the Bible being the word of God, it was a key and foundational component of the entire doctrine of the Bible as I understood it. I didn't think you disagreed with this; however, if you want to specifically debate that issue I'm afraid I will beg off. It would take an extensive amount of my time and effort to reconstruct the entire argument. I do remember that a few of the specifics were the exhortations to meditate in His word day and night, Paul's statement of "all scripture is God breathed, the fact that it is God's authoritative message to mankind of his covenants and the way of salvation.
It may just be a semantic difference, but what I meant to indicate is that the Bible testifies of its self that it is the word of God, not that its mere existence is that testimony. Besides how could Moses or anyone for that matter, have written Genesis, other than by transcription of God's account?
As well, of course no verse can be taken out of context, or interpreted apart from the entire doctrine of the Bible, that is basic exegesis. Nor does any Bible believing Christian attempt to understand the Bible outside of a state of prayerful meditation, after all it is only the indwelling of the Holy Spirit that allows for any effort on our part to amount to anything other than "filthy rags."
Regardless my point was that in my understanding of the Bible, evolution could not have been the process by which humans came to be. God would have known before His first word of creation that for many this point in its self would have been sufficient condition for people to consider the Bible as no more than they considered any other historical religious documents.


Since the initial destruction of my faith, many more reasons why the God of the Bible does not make sense have become apparent. Going into all of those is unnecessary. If evolution happened the Bible has a major error. If the Bible has such an error it cannot be the word of the God it describes. If the Bible is not the word of God, then it is of the same origin and authority of all the other various existent religions' documents, and offers no evidence for the existence of God, or gods for that matter.

I do not believe in the God of the Bible, I reach that conclusion by reason alone, there is no faith involved.


Before the destruction of your faith in Christ did you Believe all that the Bible said about Jesus? I mean, did you Believe in your heart (and did you teach your students) that Jesus was born of the Virgin, turned water into wine, raised the dead, walked on water, rose from the dead and ascended to Heaven? If you did believe these and other such claims made about Jesus, did you come to that belief by reason or by faith?
Yes of course I did, after all God does not lie, nor does it make sense that he would mislead his children. I came to those beliefs, by faith, but that faith also did not glaringly contradict reason. The God of the Bible would not have created the universe in such a way that, the reason he created in us, could see no reason for His existence. That would be contradictory to His nature.


Question authority. How do you know, that you know, what you know?
Epiphileon
Posted: Sunday, April 05, 2015 5:55:31 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 3/22/2009
Posts: 3,937
Neurons: 57,384
[Romany wrote:
I don't think the question of whether there is a god or not is terribly important:

Good morning Rom, I saw this earlier and wanted to let you know I intend to address this issue. I have thought about this a lot. It is not the belief its self that matters, but the effect that the belief has through religions that very definitely matters. I'm not sure when I will get to that post, I am in the midst of some pretty exciting discovery, and adjustments to previously held notions on the nature of the human experience. I am currently working on a post about that titled "Freedom Evolves," the other matter will need my complete attention and I can not give it right now.

Question authority. How do you know, that you know, what you know?
tunaafi
Posted: Sunday, April 05, 2015 6:45:58 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 6/3/2014
Posts: 4,420
Neurons: 53,312
Location: Karlín, Praha, Czech Republic
Romany wrote:
don't think the question of whether there is a god or not is terribly important


I wish that were so, but I think it is important. For hundreds of years Jews slaughtered non-Jews, Christians slaughtered and tortured non-Christians and each other, and Muslims slaughtered and tortured non-Muslims and each other. The horrors continue today in some parts of the world.

The greatest tragedy, in my opinion, is that some at least of these torturers and murderers sincerely believe that there is a god, and that they are serving him (for he is invariably male) by their crimes.

Some tens or hundreds of thousands of years after humans developed the ability to think in a way (as far as we know) that other animals cannot think, some humans are still not very far advanced in their understanding of the universe. We cannot prove that there is not a god, but we need to strive to educate people so they are aware that the lack of any real evidence of a deity, particularly a personal god like the one of the monotheistic religions means that there is not the slightest justification at all for abusing other human beings in the name of a god.
Helenej
Posted: Monday, April 06, 2015 3:12:45 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 9/24/2013
Posts: 1,595
Neurons: 8,375
Location: Kiev, Kyiv City, Ukraine
tunaafi wrote:
Romany wrote:
don't think the question of whether there is a god or not is terribly important
[color=indigo]

I wish that were so, but I think it is important. For hundreds of years Jews slaughtered non-Jews, Christians slaughtered and tortured non-Christians and each other, and Muslims slaughtered and tortured non-Muslims and each other. The horrors continue today in some parts of the world.

Applause
And the murder of 147 Christian students in Kenya four days ago is another page in the imaginary book about religious hostility.
Romany
Posted: Monday, April 06, 2015 5:54:39 AM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 6/14/2009
Posts: 12,872
Neurons: 39,250
Location: Brighton, England, United Kingdom
Tuna,
Taking one part out of context does indeed change the meaning of what I said:-

I went on to try to clarify what I meant: whether one side of this particular debate is proved wrong and one right some day doesn't matter as much as what one DOES with this information. Humankind is inclined to kill, maim and destroy those whose opinions differ. So even if a godhead were finally, definitively proved or disproved, the human condition would not change.
Romany
Posted: Monday, April 06, 2015 6:57:20 AM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 6/14/2009
Posts: 12,872
Neurons: 39,250
Location: Brighton, England, United Kingdom
Jacob, you wrote:-

"I have to say that it was wrong of your teachers to claim that the four Gospels were not the work of their putative authors."

Yet I feel entirely grateful for having been educated in the way I was. We were always taught to search out empirical proof.

For when I went on to study Ancient History I, unlike many others, suffered no dichotomy or confusion between empirical and learned input.

While you may have studied The Bible for many years in isolation (i.e. as a stand-alone text), I've also devoted years to studying this ancient collection of texts (Plus the ones that have been included, removed, banned, changed and copied from other sources)...but in the context of OTHER ancient texts.

When one does so, of course, many questions arise that are impossible to answer within a framework of modern (well 2000+ years) thinking.

How, faced by a text which pre-dates the beginnings of the Jewish people or the Jewish religion, would I have felt if I had believed that the first code of behaviour had been the ten commandments? Hammurabi, centuries before the events in the Jewish texts, came up with over 140 codes - among them 'an eye for an eye'.

Almost every civilisation before the Bible was written has a Flood story - complete with doves being sent out and animals two by two. Pre-Jewish civillisations from the Babylonians to the early Egyptians and others in between, feature virgin births, Trinities, death and resurrection on the third day.

Yet all these texts claim that it was THEIR gods who brought about all these things: gods whose names now crumble into dust but are believed to be the "wrong" gods.

One of the most exciting and intriguing discoveries over the last 100 years has been that of Gobekli Pepe - a settlement...and a religion... which has excited the whole historical world and completely changed the time-line of human development. This is a civillisation which existed 7,000 years before even Stonehenge, when Humankind was always thought to be pre-historic.

Yet the indisputable fact that this settlement and others existed, and had a god or gods 8,000 years before Genesis was written, causes me no conflict, confusion or shock; does not cause me anguish or change my way of being; does not make me cast around in puzzlement; nor anger me.

It's one of the most exciting finds I can imagine.

So, yes. I thank my teachers for equipping me to find empirical thought to be every bit as exciting and mind-blowing as any myth or legend.

I've taken instruction from Imans, Rabbis, Sages, Pastors; from totemic religious, from Rastafarians, from African Witch-doctors, from Samoan children. I've learned a lot from primary texts (originals), from translated texts, from interpreted texts, and from the texts of great thinkers, philosophers and revolutionaries.

Could I state whether a god exists or not from this lifetime journey? Nope. But I can certainly state that humankind has undeniably been fascinated by the idea of gods or a god for far, far longer than most people realise.
Helenej
Posted: Monday, April 06, 2015 7:40:46 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 9/24/2013
Posts: 1,595
Neurons: 8,375
Location: Kiev, Kyiv City, Ukraine
Romany wrote:
Humankind is inclined to kill, maim and destroy those whose opinions differ. So even if a godhead were finally, definitively proved or disproved, the human condition would not change.


Okay, let's take it for granted that humankind is inclined to kill, maim and destroy those whose opinions differ.

Of course, this particular discussion makes no difference to the cause of peace in the world. But let's imagine there were millions of such discussions and atheists had managed to convince believers that there is no god. In that case people would have one reason to kill, maim and destroy less.
will
Posted: Monday, April 06, 2015 9:50:14 AM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 6/29/2009
Posts: 1,036
Neurons: 4,152
Romany wrote:
I went on to try to clarify what I meant: whether one side of this particular debate is proved wrong and one right some day doesn't matter as much as what one DOES with this information. Humankind is inclined to kill, maim and destroy those whose opinions differ. So even if a godhead were finally, definitively proved or disproved, the human condition would not change.

I think that's a cop out, Romany.

It's assumed mankind is inclined to kill, maim and destroy, but this is demonstrably not the case with rational individuals. As you've alluded to, moral codes and values evolve and morality did not begin two thousand years ago and certainly should not have stopped then either. If we as a species chose not to kill, maim and destroy, then that will only happen with a common will based on rational objectivity; that will exists and works at various levels of society already and there is no reason it shouldn't work for the common good of all mankind.

God is a non issue. The question of god's existence is moot until a reasonable definition can be established; even devotees of the same god can't agree on 'his' nature, creed or purpose... and they never will agree as long as arrogant certitude without reason is considered a virtue.

Religious faith leaves no room for questions, doubt or humility. It allows individuals to irrationally believe they have a right to any reality they wish for. We face huge challenges as a species, but still routinely rely on a methodology that is no different than reading the entrails of chickens.

We have one planet to call home in this life, but are currently using resources as if we had many more; where will we find the will to change that, while so many hold the irrational belief that the entire universe was created for their personal salvation and an eternal life in paradise beyond this one?

How are we to tackle poverty, famine and inequality while it's considered valid to absolve ourselves of responsibility for human suffering with faith in 'god's will', or faith in myths as ridiculous as talking snakes?

We have people running countries – with nuclear arsenals – who believe the Rapture is imminent. We have countries being run by people who believe it's valid and virtuous to be guided by voices in their heads.

We have advanced to a point where mankind has the ability to wipe itself from existence, but we have not advanced beyond the widespread mental condition that sees mortality as a simple phase toward the real purpose of life.

Rational arguments can be made for, or against, all aspects of the human condition. Religious faith alone attempts to put itself above rationality. There are too many big questions and too little time to tolerate the right to personal comfort from ultimate 'truths' that are beyond challenge.

Human knowledge based on human observation is the only reality practically worth knowing.
will
Posted: Monday, April 06, 2015 10:03:07 AM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 6/29/2009
Posts: 1,036
Neurons: 4,152
Jacobmaximus wrote:
There are many other religions and their Gods, sometimes many Gods, and I wonder if atheism dismisses all of these Gods as bunkum.

Yes. That is exactly the point. There are a plethora of contradictory god hypotheses; an atheist (prefix 'a' = without and 'theist' = god/s) has a non-belief in all of them, including the Judaeo-Christian God. Ridiculous claims for all gods are equally open to ridicule.

You also have a non-belief in gods, but you crucially have one fewer non-belief than an atheist... and I'll repeat it again: do you consider your non-belief in Zeus to be based on the same kind of faith as your faith in the Judaeo-Christian God?

And vice versa?

Given your faith in Christ described in scripture, perhaps it would have been more poignant to have used the comparative (and earlier) mythology of Horus, rather than Zeus, as an example of your faith in a non-belief. Think
.
jacobusmaximus
Posted: Monday, April 06, 2015 4:07:22 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 4/17/2009
Posts: 10,895
Neurons: 341,278
Location: Glasgow, Scotland, United Kingdom
will wrote:
Jacobmaximus wrote:
There are many other religions and their Gods, sometimes many Gods, and I wonder if atheism dismisses all of these Gods as bunkum.

Yes. That is exactly the point. There are a plethora of contradictory god hypotheses; an atheist (prefix 'a' = without and 'theist' = god/s) has a non-belief in all of them, including the Judaeo-Christian God. Ridiculous claims for all gods are equally open to ridicule.

You also have a non-belief in gods, but you crucially have one fewer non-belief than an atheist... and I'll repeat it again: do you consider your non-belief in Zeus to be based on the same kind of faith as your faith in the Judaeo-Christian God?

And vice versa?

Given your faith in Christ described in scripture, perhaps it would have been more poignant to have used the comparative (and earlier) mythology of Horus, rather than Zeus, as an example of your faith in a non-belief. Think
.


My God was and still is a real person - Christ Jesus. Before I met Christ I believed that there was never such a thing as a god except in the imagination of superstitious people. I had no faith that a god existed and never gave it a thought. I could not have said I was an atheist because I had no foundation for believing that god did not exist in the hearts and minds of others. With Christ in my life I began to experience his reality and so build my faith in him and all that he claimed for himself. A Christian Believer can only believe in One God - the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. With that belief comes faith that no other God exists.

I remember, therefore I am.
Helenej
Posted: Tuesday, April 07, 2015 2:23:12 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 9/24/2013
Posts: 1,595
Neurons: 8,375
Location: Kiev, Kyiv City, Ukraine
I wonder, if God didn't promise believers an eternal happy life after death, how many less believers there would be?
Helenej
Posted: Saturday, April 11, 2015 11:02:15 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 9/24/2013
Posts: 1,595
Neurons: 8,375
Location: Kiev, Kyiv City, Ukraine
The picture below is from the textbook of a teenager I tutor. So I read it just because I had to. A thought occurred to me after reading, "Is it possible that it was a god who was so clever so as to invent all those outer ear, ear canal, eardrum, hammer, anvil, stirrup, cochlea with liquid in it and the invisible nerves that go from the cochlea somewhere into the brain?" A god allegedly made our ears to be like that and made the cat's ears somewhat different. He developed different ears for all the numerous animals, birds and reptiles. And our hearing is only one organ of us. What about the eyes, nose with bronchi and lungs, liver and stomach and so on? Each of those are so complicated. How can I believe that there was someone so intelligent to design and create all of that?

Maryam Dad
Posted: Monday, April 20, 2015 9:06:26 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 6/13/2013
Posts: 672
Neurons: 3,363
If God doesn't exist, then Uday Hussein must be one of the luckiest man in the world. Had everything in his life; power, beautiful women, fancy cars, money. He maybe suffered only a few seconds before his death, or maybe just a 1/1000 second. Lucky bastard!

Kindness is a mark of faith. and whoever is not kind has no faith.
pedro
Posted: Monday, April 20, 2015 9:11:41 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 5/21/2009
Posts: 12,932
Neurons: 58,635
Let's hope it felt like a thousand years.

All good ideas arrive by chance- Max Ernst
almo 1
Posted: Sunday, July 16, 2017 3:48:29 PM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 10/16/2016
Posts: 889
Neurons: 3,972
Location: Fussa, Tokyo, Japan
bump
IMcRout
Posted: Sunday, July 16, 2017 3:50:52 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 5/27/2011
Posts: 33,972
Neurons: 476,501
Location: Lübeck, Schleswig-Holstein, Germany
Noooooo! Brick wall Brick wall Brick wall Brick wall

I totally take back all those times I didn't want to nap when I was younger. (Anon)
leonAzul
Posted: Sunday, July 16, 2017 6:55:29 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 8/11/2011
Posts: 8,108
Neurons: 25,716
Location: Miami, Florida, United States
IMcRout wrote:
Noooooo! Brick wall Brick wall Brick wall Brick wall


The Horror!
Sick

"Make it go away, Mrs Whatsit," he whispered. "Make it go away. It's evil."
TMe
Posted: Monday, July 17, 2017 1:05:33 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 1/12/2017
Posts: 490
Neurons: 3,109
What a horrible discussion!Brick wall Brick wall Brick wall Brick wall Brick wall Brick wall Brick wall Brick wall

I am a layman.
TMe
Posted: Friday, August 04, 2017 11:44:35 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 1/12/2017
Posts: 490
Neurons: 3,109
No. And the logic is if HE exists, your question should have been;

Does God Exist?

I am a layman.
Tanav Joshi
Posted: Wednesday, August 09, 2017 11:58:41 AM

Rank: Newbie

Joined: 4/23/2017
Posts: 2
Neurons: 40
If He exists then in souls of our body,in our mind and in our heart.We believe in god because He is in our heart,soul and in our mind.Think Think

I am an innocent infant.
almo 1
Posted: Thursday, September 21, 2017 3:37:40 AM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 10/16/2016
Posts: 889
Neurons: 3,972
Location: Fussa, Tokyo, Japan
Jyrkkä Jätkä
Posted: Thursday, September 21, 2017 4:43:19 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 9/21/2009
Posts: 39,136
Neurons: 284,583
Location: Helsinki, Southern Finland Province, Finland



In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.
Харбин Хэйлунцзян 1
Posted: Thursday, September 21, 2017 5:09:03 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 10/13/2015
Posts: 999
Neurons: 313,060
Location: Dzerzhinskiy, Moskovskaya, Russia
Jyrkkä Jätkä wrote:
They have belly buttons in every picture...

These days some people have piercing instead:



And that not only in pictures. :) So what?



აბა ყვავებს ვინ დაიჭერს, კარგო? გალიაში ბულბულები ზიან.
Users browsing this topic
Guest


Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.

Main Forum RSS : RSS
Forum Terms and Guidelines. Copyright © 2008-2017 Farlex, Inc. All rights reserved.