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It is the same with man as with the tree ... The more he seeketh to rise into the height and light, the more vigorously do... Options
Daemon
Posted: Thursday, January 2, 2014 12:00:00 AM
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It is the same with man as with the tree ... The more he seeketh to rise into the height and light, the more vigorously do his roots struggle earthward, downward, into the dark and deep—into the evil.

Friedrich Nietzsche (1844-1900)
Professor
Posted: Thursday, January 2, 2014 12:54:45 AM

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Daemon wrote:
It is the same with man as with the tree ... The more he seeketh to rise into the height and light, the more vigorously do his roots struggle earthward, downward, into the dark and deep—into the evil.

Friedrich Nietzsche (1844-1900)


I am not sure i agree with this. I do think the higher one rises, the more targeted he becomes. It is like the largest tree in the forest attracts the bolt of lightening.

"You reveal your character by what you do with what you have."
Chaireas
Posted: Thursday, January 2, 2014 2:02:11 AM

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Professor wrote:
Daemon wrote:
It is the same with man as with the tree ... The more he seeketh to rise into the height and light, the more vigorously do his roots struggle earthward, downward, into the dark and deep—into the evil.

Friedrich Nietzsche (1844-1900)


I am not sure i agree with this. I do think the higher one rises, the more targeted he becomes. It is like the largest tree in the forest attracts the bolt of lightening.


Are you sure he is referring to other people targeting the one who seeks to rise? I have not read anything by Nietzsche except except his little treatise on history, but I understood this quote as referring to the same person throughout, i.e. that "the roots" are part of "the tree" and do not indicate other people trying to bring him down.
CheVegas ☁️ ✈ ☁️
Posted: Thursday, January 2, 2014 3:22:45 AM

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"Keep your feet on the ground and keep reaching for the stars." ~Casey Kasem

(Or, was it Scooby-Doo's pal, Shaggy, who said that?)

;-)

MelancholicRobot
Posted: Thursday, January 2, 2014 3:26:47 AM

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I partially agree with Friedrich on this one, I mean in some instances this might be applicable just as it would fail to be in others...there are people who have risen to heights of various aspects of their life without living a life filled with evil...or at least we can agree that its doable...because if its not I'll probably go paranoid on most of our leaders and other well known experts of different fields..this quote reminds of Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde in a certain way.
CheVegas ☁️ ✈ ☁️
Posted: Thursday, January 2, 2014 3:33:20 AM

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Addendum: If anyone is interested in reading Thus Spoke Zarathustra, please consider the Barnes & Noble Classics edition. It's translated by Clancy Martin with an introduction by Kathleen Higgins and Robert Salomon.

I've been told it's the most accurate translation of his ideas. While I can't verify the claim, I do own it and can attest to its elegance.

Franklyn Wesley
Posted: Thursday, January 2, 2014 4:17:22 AM

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i think this man is right,those who greedily aspire to shoot high can stop at nothing...including using evil methods to haul them up.
Chaireas
Posted: Thursday, January 2, 2014 4:43:05 AM

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Chevegas wrote:
While I can't verify the claim, I do own it and can attest to its elegance.


That is a valid point, far too less often addressed. I love an elegant book.
CheVegas ☁️ ✈ ☁️
Posted: Thursday, January 2, 2014 5:45:24 AM

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Chaireas wrote:
I love an elegant book.


Me too. I enjoy poring through Amazon book reviews to find translations that suit me.

In addition to Nietzsche, I found a great version of Albert Camus' The Stranger translated by Matthew Ward--it has a very natural flow.

Also, I'm loving Dostoyevsky immensely more these days thanks to new translations by the husband and wife team of Richard Pevear and Larissa Volokhonsky. They do a wonderful job of capturing the author's humor and idioms, and give it a graceful and modern feel. (No disrespect to Constance Garnett; she's wonderful in her own right.)

When it comes to classic Heavyweights like these, a great translation can help get them consumed and digested. I'm happy Moby Dick (my favorite novel) was written in English! Drool
Guto André
Posted: Thursday, January 2, 2014 6:38:13 AM

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That's the reason of so incredibly overall rich people.
tom k.
Posted: Thursday, January 2, 2014 7:02:46 AM

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so, a tree sinking its roots down deep into the earth is sinking them into evil...I guess the gentleman is demonstrating another step down into his syphilitic insanity
Tanaque
Posted: Thursday, January 2, 2014 8:17:07 AM
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Franklyn Wesley wrote:
i think this man is right,those who greedily aspire to shoot high can stop at nothing...including using evil methods to haul them up.


I think you got it spot on, sort of there is a price to pay for everything in life or a more existencial view would be the yin and yan, good and evil, light and dark etc..
progpen
Posted: Thursday, January 2, 2014 8:52:13 AM

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I think his simile can be valid, but does not have to be. And I think the metaphor of the earth being evil, if taken too literally, can confuse his intent.

In general, people who focus only on reaching great heights do not bother themselves with how they get there.

Do not pray for easy lives. Pray to be stronger men.
pedro
Posted: Thursday, January 2, 2014 9:14:01 AM

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The problem with Nietzsche's philosophy is that if you accept his ideal ubermensche it implies an untermensche to go with it. I am not sure to what extent he inflenced Hitler but he certainly shared some of his racial ideas . He was an eminently exciting and quotable writer when I first encountered him in my youth. It is only after rereading him years later that I realise that his ideal world didn't have room for everyone. And yes he was half bonkers, even before he started kissing horses.

This link has some of his more extreme views- yes it's out of context, and has an agenda, but you would be hard pushed to defend some these now;

http://www.worldfuturefund.org/wffmaster/Reading/Quotes/Nietzsche%20Quotes.htm

All good ideas arrive by chance- Max Ernst
Bully_rus
Posted: Thursday, January 2, 2014 9:47:37 AM
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Quote:
The more he seeketh to rise into the height and light, the more vigorously do his roots struggle earthward, downward, into the dark and deep--into the evil."

"Yea, into the evil!" cried the youth. "How is it possible that thou hast discovered my soul?"

Zarathustra smiled, and said: "Many a soul one will never discover, unless one first invent it."

Just had a "funny" thought, maybe Nietzsche invented the Hitler? It was matter of time after book...
Tina M.
Posted: Thursday, January 2, 2014 12:25:33 PM
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It is only the trees that are firmly rooted in the ground that have the capacity to grow tall. Balance is fundamental to existence. When Eucalyptus trees are planted in areas they are not adapted to, they are prone to fall over.

Shadows exist in a duality based world. One can run from one's shadow but will not get far. What is the "way out," solution or "golden path?" Acceptance.
capitán
Posted: Thursday, January 2, 2014 12:52:40 PM

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_For a man to reach the highest light must he go to into the deepest dark?

_According to the philosophy of Yin and Yang, light can't exist without darkness, and a man's capability to do right is equally proportioned to the capability to do evil. However, does this mean that a man has to do wrong in order for him to be able to do right? I don't think so.

_Curiously, for a man somewhat pure in his heart doing good is relatively easy, I think. It is the man that knows evil, that perhaps it was his nature, that does a greater good when he acts right. Don't you think? For how does the man without knowledge of how wrongdoers behave will try to compare himself to them? In other words, how can the purest soul judge evil?

_And I still have another question: what is most admirable, the good man that naturally behaves as such, or the bad man that fights against his nature and behaves as a good man? Which one reaches the highest light? It is like those who have tasted the bitter taste of pain or sorrow all their lives that can taste a sweeter happiness, or as I once read somewhere: only a warrior knows true peace.

_What do you think?
Verbatim
Posted: Thursday, January 2, 2014 2:30:46 PM
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Daemon wrote:
It is the same with man as with the tree ... The more he seeketh to rise into the height and light, the more vigorously do his roots struggle earthward, downward, into the dark and deep—into the evil.

Friedrich Nietzsche (1844-1900)


Thanks to Bully rus for the expanded quote from "Thus Spake Zarathustra". Why did Nietzsche choose the symbolic counter action of the downward struggling roots,
to the light and hight rising action in the identical tree? Because Zarathustra had been there before, he understood the youth whose turmoil he was addressing.

His advice for the soul-searching youth is found at the end of Zarathustra's discourse in Chapter 8, http://www.literaturepage.com/read/thusspakezarathustra-47.html

Quote ""Ah! I have known noble ones who lost their highest hope. And then they disparaged all high hopes.

Then lived they shamelessly in temporary pleasures, and beyond the day had hardly an aim.

"Spirit is also voluptuousness,"--said they. Then broke the wings of their spirit; and now it creepeth about, and defileth where it gnaweth.

Once they thought of becoming heroes; but sensualists are they now. A trouble and a terror is the hero to them.

But by my love and hope I conjure thee: cast not away the hero in thy soul! Maintain holy thy highest hope!--"" End quote

Perhaps this also addresses capitan's valid questions and conclusions.

DarkMoon
Posted: Thursday, January 2, 2014 4:46:06 PM

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It can also be a warning, don't go into the forests after dark. Shhh
Jeri2
Posted: Thursday, January 2, 2014 6:55:45 PM

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Chevegas wrote:
"Keep your feet on the ground and keep reaching for the stars." ~Casey Kasem

(Or, was it Scooby-Doo's pal, Shaggy, who said that?)

;-)

Absurdicuss
Posted: Thursday, January 2, 2014 9:58:14 PM

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Galatians 5:17 The flesh wars against the soul.



Welcome to the forums Jeri

"Now" is the eternal present.
Listening . . .
Posted: Friday, January 3, 2014 12:28:54 PM

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Most replies seem to lean with the "glass is half empty" tendency. I think the basic law of physics would require deeper roots if you aim higher - More stability for the added height/distance! Dancing
Verbatim
Posted: Friday, January 3, 2014 8:42:33 PM
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Listening . . . wrote:
Most replies seem to lean with the "glass is half empty" tendency. I think the basic law of physics would require deeper roots if you aim higher - More stability for the added height/distance! Dancing


That stands to good reason, one could see the benefit of deeper roots for the "tree aiming at height and light" as it rises.

Nietzsche was concerned with the darkness of the direction that growing roots take, symbolically the evil. Perhaps he had Newton's third law of motion in mind:
"To every action there is always an equal and opposite reaction". And so Zarathustra's discourse warned, that there are opposite reactions in the soul
every time it seeks elevation, but overall Nietzsche's message is positive. Think
CheVegas ☁️ ✈ ☁️
Posted: Friday, January 17, 2014 6:51:13 AM

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pedro wrote:
The problem with Nietzsche's philosophy is that if you accept his ideal ubermensche it implies an untermensche to go with it. I am not sure to what extent he inflenced Hitler but he certainly shared some of his racial ideas . He was an eminently exciting and quotable writer when I first encountered him in my youth. It is only after rereading him years later that I realise that his ideal world didn't have room for everyone. And yes he was half bonkers, even before he started kissing horses.

This link has some of his more extreme views- yes it's out of context, and has an agenda, but you would be hard pushed to defend some these now;

http://www.worldfuturefund.org/wffmaster/Reading/Quotes/Nietzsche%20Quotes.htm


Ricky Gervais's take on it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3hjv-2bBlw
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