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What Did Edison and Contemporaries Do to Humankind? Options
Hope2
Posted: Wednesday, July 31, 2013 9:52:34 AM

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We watched an interesting David Suzuki 'Nature of Things, Lights Out', last night.

Only in the past 130 years have humans had light that is not natural. They are discovering that light may be a two-edged sword. Not enough sleep in pure darkness can affect melatonin production and lack of it is implicated in studies of causation of breast cancer, and getting enough in prevention of osteoporosis and Alzheimer's. Possibly others. Heart attack survival was reduced excessively in ICU lit rooms.

However, the cure is to wear a mask and get dark sleep. The advisability of taking a hormone as a supplement is not yet known. They are fitting truck drivers and shift workers with glasses that block out certain wavelengths of light. Blue is for being awake, red is for your night lights.

Using a computer, iPad or TV before bedtime can delay melatonin production for up to
1 1/2 hours.

See this website for advice about light, sleep, and circadian rhythms.

http://www.cbc.ca/natureofthings/episode/lights-out.html?subpage=qa

This is about the film which aired last Thursday. I wish you could have seen it in its entirety.


http://www.cbc.ca/natureofthings/episode/lights-out.html

Edison did not invent the first electric light bulb, but instead invented the first commercially practical incandescent light. So we can blame him somewhat for our need to make the benefits of electric lights outweigh the risks.


Most of the trouble in the world is caused by people wanting to be important. T. S. Eliot
Hope2
Posted: Thursday, August 1, 2013 3:22:28 PM

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There was a lot of interest shown in a thread here a while ago about how to lose weight. The reason I mention weight here too, is because lack of sleep causes weight gain. You keep eating hoping to make yourself feel better.

As an older person who occasionally has sleep problems, we are looking in to making some changes re our lighting. Also, getting rid of incandescent bulbs for the environment is on the radar here. What we are waiting for is some higher watt bulbs to be developed. Also, we do not know what kind is the best. All I know is that they must not have mercury in them. Anybody know what kind will give off a warmer light?

The iPads, computers, and TVs are now off at least 1 1/2 hours before bedtime.

Most of the trouble in the world is caused by people wanting to be important. T. S. Eliot
RuthP
Posted: Thursday, August 1, 2013 4:07:51 PM

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Hope2 wrote:
There was a lot of interest shown in a thread here a while ago about how to lose weight. The reason I mention weight here too, is because lack of sleep causes weight gain. You keep eating hoping to make yourself feel better.

As an older person who occasionally has sleep problems, we are looking in to making some changes re our lighting. Also, getting rid of incandescent bulbs for the environment is on the radar here. What we are waiting for is some higher watt bulbs to be developed. Also, we do not know what kind is the best. All I know is that they must not have mercury in them. Anybody know what kind will give off a warmer light?

The iPads, computers, and TVs are now off at least 1 1/2 hours before bedtime.

If you are using old-fashioned incandescent bulbs, they give off a warm light from any usual household wattage.

If you are using efficient florescent or LED 'bulbs', then you need to look at the 'K' number (K for Kelvins), which indicates the wavelength of the light the bulb is producing. If the K-number is around 3,000 you have a warm white light, which is in the mid-upper incandescent range. If you have around a 5,000 K-number, you have a cool-white. Some grow-light 'bulbs' will be around 6,000 or 6,500K, which approximates cloudy outdoor light.

'Screens' for computers run across a broad range from 5,500 (mostly older or itty-bitty) to 10,500. The latter is bright noon-style daylight. It's easy to see why computers and TVs are a poor idea before bed, though if it doesn't bother you . . .

The flip side of this problem is that we spend a great deal more time inside than we did--speaking in an evolutionary sense. Bright light, at the right time of the day also helps set the cycle. In the best of all worlds, bright, blue light in the morning through mid-to-late afternoon, then dimmer, warmer light in the late afternoon-through-evening is what you want.
dusty
Posted: Friday, August 2, 2013 5:54:42 AM

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Wasn't Henry Ford one of his contemporaries? I thought I had seen that they were at least acquaintances, cause Ford did many more things than just brought affordable cars to the average working man. He also pioneered organized Service Departments, who job it was to specifically, periodically check in just to see how everything was going. It affect was that it made people fell cared for, that they would care so much about people, and those departments were for the people, by the people, quite possibly the first ever truly selfless organizing of group who genuinely cared, which was unmistakable, as when people are direct and transparent that sense of genuousness stick out like a good kind of sore thumb, or in between the pointer and the ring finger

To be concerned of the fate of the world is not bad, but bearing false witness is to not be
Hope2
Posted: Friday, August 2, 2013 8:10:06 AM

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Dusty, Ford and Edison were good friends. Their inventions and accomplishments changed the world in many good ways. However, there are unwanted side effects to everything.

Ruth - thanks for the info. We are renovating our kitchen and when we pick up the new lights we are going to look into replacing bulbs throughout the house with energy efficient and user friendly bulbs. I agree - we all need to be out in the sun during the day.

Most of the trouble in the world is caused by people wanting to be important. T. S. Eliot
dusty
Posted: Friday, August 2, 2013 2:46:44 PM

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Seriously though, I do know exactly what you mean. About a year ago I read a great book under the title of "Brilliant" by Jane Brox.

There are many things about the history of Human Beings on Earth that really had a much bigger impact then we realize, but it is only because we forget to remember. It is important to sometimes reflect on how our lives were changed, both for the good and bad.

We often have a problem with choosing to deny that there are any negative effects that come with things that we believe the benefits outweigh the negative aspects to such a degree that what bad came with it is considered negligible, but forgetting to remember is never a good thing, if that makes sense

To be concerned of the fate of the world is not bad, but bearing false witness is to not be
Hope2
Posted: Friday, August 2, 2013 5:18:45 PM

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Well said, Dusty!

Most of the trouble in the world is caused by people wanting to be important. T. S. Eliot
MANJUICEBUBBLES
Posted: Friday, August 2, 2013 8:16:39 PM

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Contemporary knowledge can sometimes be very obsolete. An example would probably be "filler" words because they have evolved into countless people incessantly trying to explain and exemplify themselves, but failing because of the disgusting fillers.

"Foolishness is indeed the sister of wickedness."
Hope2
Posted: Friday, August 2, 2013 8:39:07 PM

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What is a 'filler' word, Hamerbro?

Most of the trouble in the world is caused by people wanting to be important. T. S. Eliot
dusty
Posted: Friday, August 2, 2013 9:21:28 PM

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to be honest, I had to look up the word "contemporary" to make sure I wasn't associated Edison with Ford out of context, so before I posted, I wanted to make sure my assertion of guilt fit the crime I spoke of. But I can assure you the Edison's actions were much more a part of Ford's less than self-less concern for humanity, than to simply take place during self-same time.

I wonder if Hamerbro is speaking of words that have no other purpose than to cover the truth and keep the knowledge of from the realization of those not aware of the facts.

It is kind of like those ancient myths of Heaven and Hell, only in this parallel the only reason that Hell is necessary, is because without people working themselves into the ground everyday, day in and day out, there can be nobody benefiting from it by doing nothing.

I think what Hamerbro is saying is he disgusted by the fact that those benefiting have gotten so out of touch that everything is on the verge of crumbling down to non-existence of Human Being in the world we call earth, which to some is known as Heaven and to others Hell. Much like Hamerbro is upset with filler words, I too feel sick to my stomach about these alleged truths, the fact that those who called yesterday Heaven because they excluded those they had no authority to exclude.

My stomach is turned by that fact that we are so close to the verge of a chain reaction that would mean extinction because there are those who thought Heaven should be like a free ride paid for by the works of those in a hell (which was created so that their heaven could be possible, without their personal need to take part in the maintenance)

I don't know what upsets me more, but at first glance I am just going to assume that the reason dying would be better the living according their terms and definitions of right and wrong, I would have to say the bulk of my disgust is because of those who called the earth Heaven yesterday, they are just as scared of doing the work to deserve life in Heaven, as they are afraid of Heaven disappearing altogether.

and it is scary to think that are home, this earth, is controlled by those who do not understand the law of thermodynamics.

To be concerned of the fate of the world is not bad, but bearing false witness is to not be
Articulate Dreamer
Posted: Thursday, August 15, 2013 4:01:00 AM

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Loved the post and the links, Hope. Had read about melatonin's possible link with cancer but osteoporosis was news. And now even diabetes and depression...


Hope2 wrote:
What is a 'filler' word, Hamerbro?


y'know, i mean , like, generally, actually, basically,. . .

By and large these are terms that can be dispensed with in conversation,y'know. I mean like, that's what i was taught generally in linguistics and though basically we're veering away from the thread's purpose like, right? Still fillers y'know serve a purpose of strengthening identification like.

"...hold infinity in the palm of your hand and eternity in an hour"
leonAzul
Posted: Sunday, August 25, 2013 1:35:52 PM

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Hope2 wrote:

As an older person who occasionally has sleep problems, we are looking in to making some changes re our lighting. Also, getting rid of incandescent bulbs for the environment is on the radar here. What we are waiting for is some higher watt bulbs to be developed. Also, we do not know what kind is the best. All I know is that they must not have mercury in them. Anybody know what kind will give off a warmer light?

The measurement unit you are looking for is lumens, not watts.

Already, compact fluorescent lamps (CFL) are much brighter per watt than typical incandescent bulbs—typically three times as bright—which makes them less wasteful, both in the energy that they consume and the heat they emit. They also can last a lot longer, so over all they are more economical, even though they cost more per bulb. The two main drawbacks is that they can only emit a limited spectrum of light, and they are almost impossible to make without involving potentially toxic waste.

Light emitting diode (LED) technology is becoming affordable, is even more efficient, and can produce a very broad and controllable spectrum. This is the technology to watch. While the life expectancy of the old lamps is measured in months and that of the CFLs in years, good quality LEDs can last for decades.

Further in the future, organic light emitting diodes (OLED) have the potential to be even more economical and much less of a pollution hazard, but like any other new technology, it will take some time for the engineering problems to be be worked out that will make them generally affordable.


"Make it go away, Mrs Whatsit," he whispered. "Make it go away. It's evil."
Hope2
Posted: Monday, August 26, 2013 11:40:59 AM

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Hi Leon,

Thanks, yeah 'lumens'. Plus I never understood why they used Kelvin, a heat measurement, to measure light hues. So I just googled it. (Don't know what I would do without websites!)

http://www.3drender.com/glossary/colortemp.htm


We checked out some LED and there are none yet equivalent to100 watts in incandescent bulbs, about 1600 lumens.

http://homeguides.sfgate.com/lumens-vs-watts-led-bulbs-78825.html

Lumens Light bulb
watts Fluorecent
/ LED
watts
375 lm 25 W 6.23 W
600 lm 40 W 10 W
900 lm 60 W 15 W
1125 lm 75 W 18.75 W
1500 lm 100 W 25 W
2250 lm 150 W 37.5 W
3000 lm 200 W 50 W


Right now they are only equivalent to 60 watts. They are expecting/hoping to get some equivalent to 100 Watts this fall, so we are waiting. We like 50/100/150 incandescent trilights in our reading lamps. Not sure if that will ever be available in LED or even necessary.

We have some halogen now for specific purposes, (curio cabinet for crystal) but they are a blue light and get hot.

The above is the sum total of my knowledge about light bulbs. Which is a lot more than recently. I shall be watching with interest for these OLEDs you mention!

Most of the trouble in the world is caused by people wanting to be important. T. S. Eliot
Hope2
Posted: Thursday, August 29, 2013 5:37:24 PM

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Leon, or any interested person,

If you happen to notice this post now, Consumer Reports October 2013 has a whole article explaining about lights. It tells which ones to get for each room in the house and also notes their testing results recommending the ones they found to be superior.

Most of the trouble in the world is caused by people wanting to be important. T. S. Eliot
leonAzul
Posted: Monday, September 2, 2013 8:20:18 AM

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Hope2 wrote:
Leon, or any interested person,

If you happen to notice this post now, Consumer Reports October 2013 has a whole article explaining about lights. It tells which ones to get for each room in the house and also notes their testing results recommending the ones they found to be superior.

For informational purposes only, I would like to share this link:
http://1000bulbs.com/category/75-100-watt-equal-led-light-bulbs/

Please note that the prices vary greatly from about $18.00 per lamp, up to more than $50.00 per lamp for the premium goods.

Still, considering that the average incandescent lamp has a life expectancy of 750 to 1,000 hours, compared to LEDs that last from 25,000 to 50,000 hours and consume 1/5 of the current while emitting comparable luminosity, LED lamps are becoming a reasonable and economical option.

I haven't read the Consumers Reports article yet, but I would hope that it discusses another aspect of choosing appropriate lighting, the spectrum of light emitted. Even now, LEDs that are rated at only 80 lumens carry a warning not to shine them directly at a person's eyes because the frequencies they emit are capable of doing damage. In other words, not only the "white point" (often expressed in degrees Kelvin from the standard reference to the spectra emitted by filaments heated to such temperatures) is significant, but also the the total spectral content. Thus, some LEDs of lesser luminosity can be more effective than other types of lamps.

Unfortunately, there is no easy way to compare them, and at these prices, experience does not come cheap.



"Make it go away, Mrs Whatsit," he whispered. "Make it go away. It's evil."
Hope2
Posted: Monday, September 2, 2013 11:05:44 AM

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Thanks, Leon. I shall check into this aspect and also reread the Consumers' article. Hopefully when I ask these questions of the lighting salesman when we pick up our new fixtures, he will be knowledgeable too. We want a warmer light.

Quote Leon - " I haven't read the Consumers Reports article yet, but I would hope that it discusses another aspect of choosing appropriate lighting, the spectrum of light emitted. Even now, LEDs that are rated at only 80 lumens carry a warning not to shine them directly at a person's eyes because the frequencies they emit are capable of doing damage. In other words, not only the "white point" (often expressed in degrees Kelvin from the standard reference to the spectra emitted by filaments heated to such temperatures) is significant, but also the the total spectral content. Thus, some LEDs of lesser luminosity can be more effective than other types of lamps."

Most of the trouble in the world is caused by people wanting to be important. T. S. Eliot
leonAzul
Posted: Wednesday, October 2, 2013 1:44:35 AM

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I just recalled this article and thought it would be good to share a link to it in this topic.

See the light: New coatings could propel LEDs into mainstream
Quote:
A Portland LED specialist is using a $150,000 grant to further develop a coating material that could help users save billions in lighting costs.

Pacific Light Technologies believes its coating could increase the efficiency of light-emitting diodes by up to 50 percent, as well as generate rays that emit "warmer tones" as opposed to the bluish-white light the LEDs typically emit.

The company's offering could further eradicate the use of toxic heavy metals in the products and slash manufacturing costs.

http://sustainablebusinessoregon.com/articles/2013/08/see-the-light-new-coatings-could-propel.html?page=all



"Make it go away, Mrs Whatsit," he whispered. "Make it go away. It's evil."
Hope2
Posted: Wednesday, October 2, 2013 7:58:00 AM

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Leon,

Thanks.

Wow. I hope they are successful. This could be huge for the environment! Costs less, non toxic, and reduces electricity use.

Where do we invest?

Most of the trouble in the world is caused by people wanting to be important. T. S. Eliot
Wobbles
Posted: Sunday, October 6, 2013 7:35:25 PM
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Leon,

Up here in Canada, I can buy LED bulbs manufactured by Phillips that have various spectral properties. I've chosen two types: white balanced and something closer to incandescent bulbs. Both seem better than the compact fluorescent bulbs. But LED bulbs are expensive, although they last a long time (18 years at 3 hours per day). My bulbs will outlast me.

Hope,

Besides all the items you've mentioned, I also think that all those street and building lights have erased our starry nights. I used to be able to see the Milky Way. Now, I can only do that if I am in the hills away from city.

Along this line of modern intrusions, I also find the incessant noise of a city most annoying. The last time I was in a truly quiet place was when dog Storm and I were out hiking in a gentle snow. We had descended into a bowl where the snow fell perfectly downward. I stood there and listened to the silence with complete rapture.

Joe
Hope2
Posted: Sunday, October 6, 2013 11:32:36 PM

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Wobbles,

Your last post made me very nostalgic too. Before my husband retired, we lived in the country for seventeen years. Then for years we lived six months of the year on an island in Northern Ontario. There were 26 cottages on the island and most of them were summer residents, so for four months we had the island to ourselves. (Good job my husband and I are friends, lol.) We used to walk and walk, just enjoying nature. After they rebuilt an old golf course adjoining our property, we walked it. At night it could be so black you could not see your hand in front of your face unless there was a moon. Matter of fact, my husband trashed the boat one such night on a Thanksgiving weekend going to pick up our family. He was off course on the compass. Fortunately he was not hurt because of his down filled parka, but the boat landed up on another island, missing a dock, a large rock wall, and landing between two trees. Never liked that boat anyhow. He had to feel his way across the small island so he could shout at our family waiting at the marina so they could borrow a boat. I was sitting at the lakehouse knowing it was taking far too long. I try to remember the inconveniences of living there, but all I remember is sitting on the dock in the sun, watching the gorgeous sunsets over the water, and looking at the stars and moon at night when there were any. We had all kinds of animals. Owls, a bear, deer, an albino deer, porcupines, bass, hummingbirds, ducks, loons, beavers, ferrets, fireflies, and woodpeckers as big as the cartoon one.

Now for twelve years we have lived in a condo on a busy street, can hear the traffic, and have to have blackout curtains in the bedrooms. But you do what you have to do. However, our son is moving out into the country again and we can go visit him for our walks in the country.



Most of the trouble in the world is caused by people wanting to be important. T. S. Eliot
RuthP
Posted: Monday, October 7, 2013 5:44:48 PM

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I used to live in a much smaller town. I, too, could see the Milky Way. Now, there are very few bright stars that show in my night sky. I have some hope though. As older street lighting is replaced, they are going to newer, dark-sky versions than point the light down and shield 'up' from the light. They are encouraging, though not requiring, businesses to do the same with their commercial lighting.

In theory, eventually, from the roof of a tall building, you might have a bit more of a star view. The push is to stop the light encroachment into earthbound telescopes. Of course, here in the rainy, cloudy Northwest, the idea that we'd have a serious observatory is . . . remote.
dusty
Posted: Wednesday, October 9, 2013 12:27:31 AM

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The Alvorde desert has very little light pollution and it's separated from the coast by the Coast Range and Cascade Mountains. The Cascades are tall enough that it forces the air to let go of nearly all it's moisture before passing over into Alvorde, so it gets very little rain. It takes hours to get there but it's worth it when you need a break from light pollution and the rain.

To be concerned of the fate of the world is not bad, but bearing false witness is to not be
Hope2
Posted: Wednesday, October 9, 2013 7:19:20 AM

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Most of the trouble in the world is caused by people wanting to be important. T. S. Eliot
Jyrkkä Jätkä
Posted: Wednesday, October 9, 2013 7:36:06 AM

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I can see we had just lit a candle lantern on our sauna balcony that night, Hope ;-)


In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.
Hope2
Posted: Wednesday, October 9, 2013 7:42:26 PM

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I knew it, I knew it. I said to myself, 'That little bit of light is a candle that JJ has on the sauna balcony. He must sit in the dark in the sauna, conserving energy, drinking his beer.

One of these days he is going to be surprised when we all locate his house and knock on the door and ask for a sauna! All because of a little beacon of light.

Also, please tell JJ that I like his new signature on the TFD Forum! More parents should remember those wise words.

Most of the trouble in the world is caused by people wanting to be important. T. S. Eliot
Jyrkkä Jätkä
Posted: Thursday, October 10, 2013 6:07:26 AM

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Little Prince, Antoine de Saint-Exupéry.
Some light in the darkness ;-)


In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.
jumitoprenove
Posted: Thursday, June 28, 2018 2:47:37 AM
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interesting!
Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Thursday, June 28, 2018 9:11:11 AM

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I realise that we are now "five years in the future" from the start of this topic, but this is the relatively current comparison:

For 50,000 hours of the same "luminance":

Two LED lamps costing $10 last for 50,000 hours and use power costing $42.

Five CFL lamps costing $10 last for 50,000 hours and use power costing $70.

21 incandescent bulbs costing $21 last for 50,000 hours and use power costing $300.

You can get a 25 watt LED bulb which is as bright as a 150-watt incandescent bulb. Incandescents are VERY fragile and get very hot, LEDs are not fragile and stay cool.

Most types of LED lamp have at least two colour-temperatures to choose from. They do not use hazardous materials in manufacture,

The CFL lamps were an adequate 'interim' solution, but were slow to ignite, more expensive and toxic (relatively).

Wyrd bið ful aræd - bull!
TMe
Posted: Saturday, August 18, 2018 11:20:29 AM

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Read the history achievements of these scientists before posing such questions.

I am a layman.
FounDit
Posted: Saturday, August 18, 2018 11:45:59 AM

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And if you don't have enough to worry about, there is this (for and against):

https://uab.edu/news/youcanuse/item/7258-debunking-digital-eyestrain-and-blue-light-myths

https://www.health.com/eye-health/blue-light-eye-strain

https://www.livescience.com/31949-led-lights-eye-damage.html


We should look to the past to learn from it, not destroy our future because of it — FounDit
TMe
Posted: Monday, August 20, 2018 1:19:22 PM

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Follow FounDit.

I am a layman.
Epiphileon
Posted: Tuesday, August 21, 2018 7:40:29 AM

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TMe wrote:
Read the history achievements of these scientists before posing such questions.


I am curious TMe, what is your reasoning behind this assertion?
Just because a scientist is accomplished does not mean that we should not question the dangers of those accomplishments. The discovery of x-rays and their eventual practical usage were great accomplishments; however, if we had not questioned the potential harm there would have been a lot more of it.

Question authority. How do you know, that you know, what you know?
Islami
Posted: Wednesday, August 22, 2018 12:03:41 PM
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The dispute between the Church and Galileo has long stood as one of history's great emblems of conflict between reason and dogma, science and faith. The Vatican's formal acknowledgement of an error, moreover, is a rarity in an institution built over centuries on the belief that the Church is the final arbiter in matters of faith.
At the time of his condemnation, Galileo had won fame and the patronage of leading Italian powers like the Medicis and Barberinis for discoveries he had made with the astronomical telescope he had built. But when his observations led him to proof of the Copernican theory of the solar system, in which the sun and not the earth is the center, and which the Church regarded as heresy, Galileo was summoned to Rome by the Inquisition. Forced to Recant.
More than 350 years after the Roman Catholic Church condemned Galileo, Pope John Paul II is poised to rectify one of the Church's most infamous wrongs -- the persecution of the Italian astronomer and physicist for proving the Earth moves around the Sun.
With a formal statement at the Pontifical Academy of Sciences on Saturday, Vatican officials said the Pope will formally close a 13-year investigation into the Church's condemnation of Galileo in 1633. The condemnation, which forced the astronomer and physicist to recant his discoveries, led to Galileo's house arrest for eight years before his death in 1642 at the age of 77.
Invention of incandescent light was great. Those are still in use in many countries.
If a couple of inventions proved harmful today, what about the good those have done in good old days when those were invented .
Criticizing always is not good.

To Err is human(Church also?)

Just because the writer of an article is British doesn't mean that they use English correctly-DragOnspeaker.
Hope123
Posted: Wednesday, August 22, 2018 6:31:34 PM

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Location: Burlington, Ontario, Canada
The original post was in no way a criticism. There was just a recognition that sometimes there are some drawbacks that come with the good in inventions.

Therefore sometimes adjustments have to be or can be made to alleviate any harm or risks.

For instance - Get "dark" sleep, don't have bright lights at night before bed time etc.

In fact without inventions such as the car, the lightbulb, or even nuclear energy, the modern world would not exist. But all three of those do have drawbacks that need to be addressed.

Elitism is the slur directed at merit by mediocrity. -Sydney J. Harris, journalist (14 Sep 1917-1986)
TMe
Posted: Thursday, August 23, 2018 12:32:08 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 1/12/2017
Posts: 779
Neurons: 4,943
They, to a great extent, improved the lot of mankind.

I am a layman.
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