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Same song, verse ad nauseum - Islam is NOT a violent religion Options
Hope2
Posted: Monday, September 17, 2012 11:28:20 PM

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Tov, Good.

Will it be enough to stop them?

Most of the trouble in the world is caused by people wanting to be important. T. S. Eliot
Tovarish
Posted: Tuesday, September 18, 2012 1:46:38 AM

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Its a start, and only time will tell how strong the community is.

One of the men arrested was already under the watch of ASIO, and has an arrest sheet of multiple pages, nice bloke.

The mother of a little child (4'ish, with the banner saying behead those who insult Allah)

and another baby in a pusher has handed her self into Police, DOCs were looking for her too.

It is so nice to have confidence in your Police Force.

I sincerely hope for the Muslim community, that they can sort these thugs out.
Ray41
Posted: Tuesday, September 18, 2012 3:54:49 AM

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The '#####' that put the offending video on You Tube previously lived in Melbourne (though he had come to Australia from a foreign country),and had a web site, from which he spread his hatred and bile. I understand that he was a Mullah, which I presume made him a Muslim, but, due to the content of his web site he was 'disowned' by the Islamic movement. He was virtually thrown out of Australia. He then 'became?' a Coptic Christian after moving to England, from where he moved on to America. He has a police record and was still under probation when he posted that inflammatory clip so could be in more trouble.
Errors and omissions accepted as it was on the news last night and I didn't quite get it all.
Google pulled the clip(or stopped You Tube) from being accessible in Libya,Yemen and another country, but, although the US Government could ask Google to delete the clip, Google do not have to comply!!!! A spoke person for Google said that 'freedom of speech, etc. etc, blah blah, would not justify them removing said clip.Sick
The fact that many people have died, in my mind, places a lot of responsibility/blame at their feet.

The clip, when one looks at the evidence, points to the fact that '#####' deliberately set out to cause the very sequence of events that took place. For what purpose? I can think of more reasons than I have time to type!!!

In Sydney the police were sent to control a non-violent protest which quickly got out of control when a number of radicals took over, gathering further like minded individuals via mobile phone. To see unconscious police officers with blood pouring from their heads being dragged back to safety by fellow members was a sickening sight. It is not what we, as Australians, want to see.
To see Islamic leaders trying to stop the the radicals, (but to no avail), was a very positive aspect which showed that the vast majority did not want violence. The police will have excellent film footage from which to identify the trouble makers and have told them to give themselves up 'before' the police come knocking on their door.

The Islamic leaders have condemned outright what took place saying that Australia has only ever offered peace and freedom of worship and that freedom had been abused.
There was, among the many carrying 'hate' placards, a young child with one stating the beheading of all who insult Allah (as Tov posted earlier). The appropriate government department are tracing the parents of this child as they consider it child abuse. These irresponsible parents were caught on film actually taking photos of the child waving the placard.Sick

The intriguing part that I cannot fathom is why the US Embassies were targeted in the first place? The US did not post the clip, it was a person who originally came from an Islamic State who just happened to be in the US at the time.

Freedom of speech is a privilege, not a right. To see it abused in such a way, and to see it defended by the Internet social network owners sucks.Shame on you

Hope2 wrote;
ONE idiot set this up, I think to coincide with 9/11, and only A FEW around the world have decided to riot.

In a nutshell Hope, only too easy to spread hate and violence when social networking is so irresponsibly monitored and so readily misusedBrick wall

EDIT:
Had to make a trip to town while typing, so big gap from start to finish, and I see that Tov has an update on the child.

While I live I grow.
percivalpecksniff
Posted: Tuesday, September 18, 2012 4:57:43 AM

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I agree Ray that the video was very offensive and calculated to disrupt. However that does not allow for murder and mayhem the world over. The actions of some Muslims over Europe and other parts of the world are off the wall. Why attack and kill the American ambassador and target Americans for with intent to maim and kill when it was the act of a lone man?

We had a program in our country that academically traced the path of Islam in a reasoned way, and challenged long held views... it was an objective piece and in no way designed to offend. Yet what do we see? The program had to be withdrawn due to threats from the Muslim community.

I watched that program and found its content interesting, and I am not in any way anti-Muslim. I have repeatedly said on this forum that I believe the vast majority of Muslims are peace-lovers. It remains a fact, however, that there is a groundswell of Muslims in certain lands that are easily aroused to uncalled for actions, in response to perceived insults.

Yes, freedom of speech should not be abused, but neither should the lives and property of others come under threat.

We must not excuse the actions of those who consider it their right to burn, destroy and kill simply because they are offended. The video was stupid, ill-conceived and wrong, but it pales into insignificance when set against the actions of those who took offence.

We must not, in an effort to be fair-minded, minimise the violence. The uprisings are far worse than the film.


It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. Aristotle
Tovarish
Posted: Tuesday, September 18, 2012 5:35:41 AM

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I believe the man in question is an Egyptian.

It is a privelage to live in Australia, and a privelage that I also believe can be revoked.

Pantomime
Posted: Tuesday, September 18, 2012 6:18:06 AM

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The movie has been on line for almost a year and they would have stumbled upon it on 11/09.

This must be a coincidence.

Poor skeleton couldn't attend the ball, he had no body to go with.
Tovarish
Posted: Tuesday, September 18, 2012 6:39:44 AM

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Really?, that answers a few questions.
Blooper
Posted: Tuesday, September 18, 2012 7:35:19 AM

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Ray41 wrote:

The intriguing part that I cannot fathom is why the US Embassies were targeted in the first place? The US did not post the clip, it was a person who originally came from an Islamic State who just happened to be in the US at the time.


Similar logic with Bush's when he decided to go to Afghanistan.

Maybe they want The US to hand over the film maker so they can punish him.



"Wherever ye are, death will find you out, even if ye are in towers built up strong and high!" (An-Nisa':78)
percivalpecksniff
Posted: Tuesday, September 18, 2012 8:00:18 AM

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You said Blooper: Maybe they want The US to hand over the film maker so they can punish him.


Possibly Blooper, but that does not excuse their behaviour. One does not need much of an imagination to conclude what form that punishment might take. Death for certain, and abuse and beheading are likely.

I won't justify America's and others entry into Afghanistan. Their raison d'etre was that Afghanistan harboured Al Quaeda and terrorist camp... that is their justification.


My guess though, whatever one may say about such intervention is that the female population feel a sense of freedom and self worth now.


It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. Aristotle
Blooper
Posted: Tuesday, September 18, 2012 8:17:19 AM

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As a muslim, how do I deal with the abuse toward our beloved Prophet?

My reaction for example, when I heard about cartoons in Denmark,
"Those cartoons must not be Muhammad (pbuh), no way! Why should I believe them? Why should I approve their imagination? They are not muslims, they know very little about Islam and Muhammad (pbuh).

Never ever be pictures, motion pictures, paintings, statues of Muhammad (pbuh). Simple.

"Wherever ye are, death will find you out, even if ye are in towers built up strong and high!" (An-Nisa':78)
percivalpecksniff
Posted: Tuesday, September 18, 2012 8:24:54 AM

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You have a right to feel the way you do Blooper, and to express those feelings. May you always retain that freedom... I support your right to freedom of expression and viewpoint. That, of course, is as far as it goes.

Others have the right to freedom of expression, which one hopes they will carry out responsibly.

What one does not have the right to do is to kill, maim, murder and destroy simply because one is offended.

Does anyone in their right mind think God is pleased with such behaviour? It is a man-made reaction, nothing more and nothing less.

If you want to exercise indignation Blooper then why not get angry over the Iraq/Iran war in which Muslims slaughtered Muslims in the name of Allah and Muhammhad. Surely that was far more wicked than a film, however outrageous.



It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. Aristotle
niblick
Posted: Tuesday, September 18, 2012 9:40:34 AM
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As expected, liberals rush to make such excuses and denials of outrageous behavior as they might.

@Ray: In the United State, freedom of speech is a right and not a priviledge.

Has everyone forgotten the killing of those who insult Allah merely by trying to practise their own religion?

Is it unknown to the educated people who write in this forum that clitoridectomy is still widely
practised by Muslims in the Middle East and Africa?

Let each religious faith be practised by its adherents without interference from others and without interference
into the affairs of those who believe differently.
pedro
Posted: Tuesday, September 18, 2012 10:15:52 AM

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niblick wrote:
As expected, liberals rush to make such excuses and denials of outrageous behavior as they might.

@Ray: In the United State, freedom of speech is a right and not a priviledge.

Has everyone forgotten the killing of those who insult Allah merely by trying to practise their own religion?

Is it unknown to the educated people who write in this forum that clitoridectomy is still widely
practised by Muslims in the Middle East and Africa?

Let each religious faith be practised by its adherents without interference from others and without interference
into the affairs of those who believe differently.



Not sure what you are saying here niblick. From your last statement one infers that it is wrong for muslims to interfere with a Westerner's beliefs (eg by killing them) but it also infers that it must be wrong to interfere with a muslim's faith (eg by criminalising female circumcision). I am in no way in favour of such a barbaric practice (and I would put male circumcision up alongside such a barbaric folly). I rather think it is difficult to disentangle such moral and ethical 'rights' but I might suggest that ones fellow human beings' health and welfare should come before the luxury of a religious belief (IMHO).

All good ideas arrive by chance- Max Ernst
Jyrkkä Jätkä
Posted: Tuesday, September 18, 2012 2:51:07 PM

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niblick wrote:
As expected, liberals rush to make such excuses and denials of outrageous behavior as they might.



Can you explain what you mean?


In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.
niblick
Posted: Tuesday, September 18, 2012 2:58:46 PM
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pedro wrote:
niblick wrote:
As expected, liberals rush to make such excuses and denials of outrageous behavior as they might.

@Ray: In the United State, freedom of speech is a right and not a priviledge.

Has everyone forgotten the killing of those who insult Allah merely by trying to practise their own religion?

Is it unknown to the educated people who write in this forum that clitoridectomy is still widely
practised by Muslims in the Middle East and Africa?

Let each religious faith be practised by its adherents without interference from others and without interference
into the affairs of those who believe differently.



Not sure what you are saying here niblick. From your last statement one infers that it is wrong for muslims to interfere with a Westerner's beliefs (eg by killing them) but it also infers that it must be wrong to interfere with a muslim's faith (eg by criminalising female circumcision). I am in no way in favour of such a barbaric practice (and I would put male circumcision up alongside such a barbaric folly). I rather think it is difficult to disentangle such moral and ethical 'rights' but I might suggest that ones fellow human beings' health and welfare should come before the luxury of a religious belief (IMHO).




It seems to me that one point might be that all of the politically correct liberals that tote the party line
about the Muslim religion being one of peace might want to take into account honor killings, the killing of
Christians, dhimmitude, clitoridectomy and so on. What you or I am in favor of is of little consequence in
the face of what is stark and real.
Truthseeker
Posted: Tuesday, September 18, 2012 5:28:51 PM

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niblick wrote:


It seems to me that one point might be that all of the politically correct liberals that tote the party line
about the Muslim religion being one of peace might want to take into account honor killings, the killing of
Christians, dhimmitude, clitoridectomy and so on. What you or I am in favor of is of little consequence in
the face of what is stark and real.


Applause Applause

Everyone thinks of changing the world, but no one thinks of changing himself. Leo Tolstoy
Tovarish
Posted: Tuesday, September 18, 2012 7:59:55 PM

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Thank goodness, at Federation we, Australia has the seperation of Church and State.

You may have religeous opinions and rules BUT, when living in a country like Australia, we have Civil rules.

The rule of Law superceeds Religeous rules.

No, you as a Muslim parent cannot castrate your little girls in Australia.

A Muslim Doctor and nurse were charged here last week with this offence, it is Child Abuse.

If as a Muslim person cannot accept that these are the Laws of our country, then it is quite simple, choose a Muslim Country.

As our Police Commissioner Skippionni, said yesterday, you will be caught, you will be charged and you will suffer the consequences of our

Courts.

dusty
Posted: Tuesday, September 18, 2012 9:18:12 PM

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niblick wrote:
As expected, liberals rush to make such excuses and denials of outrageous behavior as they might.

@Ray: In the United State, freedom of speech is a right and not a priviledge.

Has everyone forgotten the killing of those who insult Allah merely by trying to practise their own religion?

Is it unknown to the educated people who write in this forum that clitoridectomy is still widely
practised by Muslims in the Middle East and Africa?

Let each religious faith be practised by its adherents without interference from others and without interference
into the affairs of those who believe differently.


I haven't any liberals claim that the murders were not wrong

The point most people are trying to make is that NO freedom comes without responsibility. Anybody that put out "bait" loses much of their legitimate right to complain when the bait is taken. People who care about what happened and are working for peace will be outraged by both the abusers of free speech and the murders.

Attitudes taken such as Niblick's and Truthseeker's are not as ignorant as they read.

A people or an entire country will never keep the freedoms they have if they exercise those rights and freedoms irresponsibly.

Irresponsibility also includes crossing the lines clearly drawn out between right and wrong by employing tactics that are increasingly subtle .

Those who cannot see how damaging producing such a horrible video is to all who labor for amicable foreign relationships are either lying or else they will not be able to recognize how wrong it is to kill in reaction to the ignorant's video.

Those who claim the killings to be wrong but not the intent of the video are not quick enough to realize how see through such political statements are.

It is as if they do not hear how loud their subtle ways scream out to even those who are hard of hearing.

To be concerned of the fate of the world is not bad, but bearing false witness is to not be
Ray41
Posted: Tuesday, September 18, 2012 11:21:58 PM

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@niblick and Truthseeker;

Liberals?

Even Russia recognizes the threat emanating from attempts at deliberately antagonising a certain part of society, and the subsequent consequences.
As dusty pointed out, no one has condoned any killings, but we are losing a lot of good people because of the abuse of the so-called 'right to free speech,etc.' without due discretion.

You have some good points in that post dusty.



http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=8535106

A Russian Cabinet minister says authorities will block access to YouTube if it refuses to take down an anti-Islam film that has sparked violence around the world.

While I live I grow.
Tovarish
Posted: Wednesday, September 19, 2012 3:25:40 AM

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I havn't see the video and have no intention of wasting my brain cells on drivel.

As one of our former posters said it has been on Utube for 12 mths.

It seems to be that someone/group were searching for a trigger, the castration of the two little girls didnt do it, neither did the young man

charged with terroist material, all in Australia in the last few weeks.

Strange values.



jacobusmaximus
Posted: Wednesday, September 19, 2012 6:43:47 AM

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Blooper wrote:
As a muslim, how do I deal with the abuse toward our beloved Prophet?

My reaction for example, when I heard about cartoons in Denmark,
"Those cartoons must not be Muhammad (pbuh), no way! Why should I believe them? Why should I approve their imagination? They are not muslims, they know very little about Islam and Muhammad (pbuh).

Never ever be pictures, motion pictures, paintings, statues of Muhammad (pbuh). Simple.


Blooper - just so you know: Muslims are infuriated when their Prophet is insulted. They want to kill those who insulted him. That is a significant Muslim way. Believing Christians don't like it when insults are aimed at Jesus, and Jesus is more than a Prophet - he is God in the flesh and now in Glory. We are insulted when it is said that he is only a Prophet, as you Muslims do (God is not insulted of course; He is too great to be insulted). But Christians do not lose the place over this, because our God doesn't need mere man to deal with His detractors. He will do that in His time.

I remember, therefore I am.
Tovarish
Posted: Wednesday, September 19, 2012 7:13:15 AM

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As I reported previously, a Doctor & a nurse have been charged with castration of 2 little girls, (5&7), tonight an adittional 4 woman have

also been charged.

Keep up the good work AFB.
Blooper
Posted: Wednesday, September 19, 2012 7:25:09 AM

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jacobusmaximus wrote:
We are insulted when it is said that he is only a Prophet, as you Muslims do (God is not insulted of course; He is too great to be insulted).

I hope you aren't offended when we say pork is "haram" to be eaten.


"Wherever ye are, death will find you out, even if ye are in towers built up strong and high!" (An-Nisa':78)
dusty
Posted: Wednesday, September 19, 2012 7:27:26 AM

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I am thinking you mean genital mutilation, not castration, but the weird thing is that I have never heard of that being a practice of a follower of Islam.

However, on the same continent in different parts of Africa I have heard about such vile practices.

As far as terrorist activity, I am not so sure some of the reported "foilings" are what they claim to be. All over the interwebs there is propaganda being spread against Muslims that appears to have no other reason other than to incite hatred and rage. I know there isn't a lot to do for all the employees earning extremely generous salaries
in Homeland Security here in the states, so I start to wonder if they maybe get a little trigger happy.

To be concerned of the fate of the world is not bad, but bearing false witness is to not be
jacobusmaximus
Posted: Wednesday, September 19, 2012 1:05:05 PM

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Blooper wrote:
jacobusmaximus wrote:
We are insulted when it is said that he is only a Prophet, as you Muslims do (God is not insulted of course; He is too great to be insulted).

I hope you aren't offended when we say pork is "haram" to be eaten.


Nope.

I remember, therefore I am.
RuthP
Posted: Wednesday, September 19, 2012 2:15:16 PM

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Tovarish wrote:
Really?, that answers a few questions.

The film was in English. Clips from the film were translated into Arabic shortly before (I don't know how long) September 11th and re-posted.
dusty
Posted: Thursday, September 20, 2012 4:55:31 PM

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RuthP wrote:
Tovarish wrote:
Really?, that answers a few questions.

The film was in English. Clips from the film were translated into Arabic shortly before (I don't know how long) September 11th and re-posted.



I highly doubt it was Muslim who speaks Arabic that was the one to translate it. So after a couple of years of getting no bites on the bait these despicable lowlifes put out, they took it a step further and had it translated.

Even on a forum as reputable as TFD we still have people spreading vicious, false rumors about the Muslim faith, like clitoris circumcision. Not to mention the false assertion is used in conjunction with another false assertion which is that it is Muslim practice to commit murder.

Then we have the tired old Republican strategy being used which is reverse psychology, or attempting to argue in favor of something, but because it the principles are twisted into something NOT true, it sounds ludacris, like saying we shouldn't interfere with Muslim religion, but then lists two practices that are NOT part of the followers of Islamic faith.

That subtlety, and subsequent denial of said tactics will eventually push anybody over the edge. It is a shame that both the diplomats and those of Muslim faith pay the ultimate price for the sake a political posturing when a party clings to inferior ideology, core beliefs, and principles.

When tragedy happens, people will be outraged not only at those who took the bait, but also at those who bait hooks trolling for trouble, or those that labor to up the anty because the bait had not been taken.

Even a steelhead can be hooked when they are in a period of not feeding, but only when the lure is smacked against their nose, and even then they only strike out of self defense.

The people of the world must stand up to both forms of aggressors. We do not want a world where are children are fooled into being paranoid by "the enemy" when often it is the enemy who is just as much a victim as the innocent ones whose blood was shed. In order to stop the world from becoming a hell hole we must ban together, both Muslim and Christian, and any other faith as well as those without faith. Faith is less important than what is critical. The critical things we cannot be is liars, instigators, and murderers.

For they are the deadly recipe for atrocities committed against US, the People of The World.

To be concerned of the fate of the world is not bad, but bearing false witness is to not be
Blooper
Posted: Friday, September 21, 2012 9:19:38 AM

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Just seen 2 leaders of the 2 biggest Indonesian Islamic organisations on national tv. Calling for peaceful protests or demonstrations and not to get provoked. Violents acts or vandalism is like eating* the bait.
Coincidentally*, in the end, one leader said that "if christians say Jesus (pbuh) was God, that's not an insult to Islam because that's their faith".

*can't find better words

"Wherever ye are, death will find you out, even if ye are in towers built up strong and high!" (An-Nisa':78)
Tovarish
Posted: Tuesday, September 25, 2012 6:15:38 AM

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Isnt Jesus the son of God?, I get confused.

Your English is just fine Blooper.

Apparently there are 70 groups of Muslims in Sydney, with each practicing a different style of their faith.

These differences are due to their country of origin, and live in different suburbs,

some are more peace loving than others.

30% agree with the council making Monday last weeks comments.

jacobusmaximus
Posted: Tuesday, September 25, 2012 7:58:01 AM

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Blooper wrote:
Just seen 2 leaders of the 2 biggest Indonesian Islamic organisations on national tv. Calling for peaceful protests or demonstrations and not to get provoked. Violents acts or vandalism is like eating* the bait.
Coincidentally*, in the end, one leader said that "if christians say Jesus (pbuh) was God, that's not an insult to Islam because that's their faith".

*can't find better words


I am encouraged, Blooper, by your post. It is good news that a prominent Muslim should have made such a public statement, and it is good news that you are willing to share it with us on this forum.

Tovarish, The Doctrine of the Trinity is baffling, even to some theologians. Christian Doctrine teaches that Jesus was (i.e. existed) 'in the beginning', that he was not created by God, but existed as a part of God. Also existing from the beginning - i.e. - not created, was the Holy Sprit of God. Three in One. This is the Triune God that Christians believe in.
In time, God decided to save his people (all people on earth) from the penalty of sin (that is separation from God) and for this purpose he sent Jesus into the world in the form of a man. This man was begotten of God by the action of the Holy Spirit on Mary, so Mary was Jesus' mother and God was his father. So Jesus was the Son of God. That's the easy bit. It becomes complcated when we are to understand that, while Jesus lived in the world, the Triune God in heaven was not diminished. The Three-in-One still existed while Jesus lived and died as a man.


I remember, therefore I am.
percivalpecksniff
Posted: Tuesday, September 25, 2012 9:28:27 AM

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Jesus never claimed to be God, but he did admit to being God's son. He submitted himself to his Father and said he came to earth to do his Father's will, and did nothing of his on initiative. The very terminology used shows the positions of both the father and the son. The Father existed before the son and the son owes dutiful respect and submission to the father. Jesus is not God.

It was a corrupted form of Christianity that adopted the trinity in 325 C.E. at the Council of Nicea. Just as Paul foretold, they have twisted the scriptures and continue to do so. The clergy have much to answer for. They are hypocrites... do as I say but not as I do. They are supporters of war and have blood on their hands.

False Christianity supports the notion of a trinity... it is not found in the Bible and even Catholic encyclopaedias challenge it.

Death means non-existence. Death is the opposite of life which menas to exist as a living person.
God ressurected Jesus. Jesus did not resurrect himself. The trinity is bunkum.

Christian doctrine, meaning church doctrine, is not in line with scripture.


It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. Aristotle
jacobusmaximus
Posted: Tuesday, September 25, 2012 10:17:44 AM

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Having read Percivals submission I am moved to modify my opening remark, thus:
The Doctrine of the Trinity is baffling, even to some would-be theologians.

I remember, therefore I am.
percivalpecksniff
Posted: Tuesday, September 25, 2012 10:26:02 AM

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Your attempt at sarcasm, JB, does you no favours. A typical clergyman's response. I seem to recall that the religious leaders in Jesus time called the disciples unlettered and ordinary.

It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. Aristotle
jacobusmaximus
Posted: Tuesday, September 25, 2012 10:49:20 AM

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We must remember that the religious leaders in Jesus' time were the enemy. The ones who crucified Jesus. If they said such things about Jesus' disciples they were almost certainly right as the disciples were ordinary men and women.

I remember, therefore I am.
percivalpecksniff
Posted: Tuesday, September 25, 2012 10:54:20 AM

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It is not a matter of 'if' they said... they did, and it was said as they looked down their noses at Jesus choice of disciples. They called the common people amhaarets which under the religious leaders came to be derogatory term equivalent to country bumpkin .... people of the land. They felt challenged by these fishermen, and their position was threatened.

It was these 'ordinary' men and women that truly had the truth whereas the clergy of Jesus day a adulterated the Word of God... just as today.

And we must also remember that the clergy of today are the modern day Sadducees and Pharisees. What with their expensive robes and religious dress, jewels and riches and officiating at the blessing of weapons of war that were destined to kill and maim millions of their own faith.... men women and children.

Were Jesus here today he would have the same message for them as he did for the religious leaders of his day. One can easily envision such a condemnation.


It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. Aristotle
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