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Praise the Lord, my dog is a Catholic... Options
Ms. B. Have
Posted: Monday, May 28, 2012 7:02:48 PM

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Taliesin ap Elphin wrote:
I am rather biased against it, because I do not consider to be inspired by God, but rather simply written by a person who felt like writing something.

Ofcourse we always believe that what we believe is the truth, when it comes to religion no one believes something he/she thinks is untrue.

But how do you know that what you believe is true? How do you know which text is inspired by God and which one is not? If you know your own psychology it is easy to say: When I read something that is confirming what I believe then it is true and inspired by God, but when I read something that is contradicting my believe then it is false and not inspired by God. Perception selects and makes the world we believe in. But what if? What if what I believe is not true but false? How do I find out that what I believe is wrong if I only accept information that confirms my believe? By doing so I can trap myself inside a false religion for the rest of my life.

I think God has thought about this problem and the outcome of His thinking was that He gave us something what we call: “intelligence”. And I believe God wants us to use that intellect He gave us, not only to build weapons and rockets, but also to check our religion. We should always check what we believe, if it can be right or maybe is wrong, with the use of our intelligence. Therefore I think science should never conflict with our religion, and if science proofs that what I believe is wrong, I should not change or deny science, but I need to change my believe, and by doing so I come closer to the truth and closer to God. That is why I think that with the help of science we can come even closer to God than our forefathers have been, who had a lot less information and knowledge than we do have now. With the help of science we can find and undo an awful lot of mistakes our churchfathers made and solve many of the misunderstandings and misinterpretations of mediaeval theologues, who still believed that the earth was flat and the centre of the universe. By doing so it will bring us much closer to the historical Jesus and His true teachings than our bishops who attended the Councils of Nicaea.

If you want to know more about apocryphal texts and understand them, you also have to know the time and culture in which the were written and read, and the social and political circumstances of that time. A good introduction are the books of Professor Bart D. Ehrman, a New Testament scholar at University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill:

Misquoting Jesus: The Story Behind Who Changed the Bible and Why

Jesus, Interrupted: Revealing the Hidden Contradictions in the Bible (And Why We Don't Know About Them)


And more about the apocrypha and the Gospel of Thomas:

Lost Christianities: The Battles for Scripture and the Faiths We Never Knew.

Lost Scriptures: Books that Did Not Make It into the New Testament


Ofcourse this professor is under attack, many Christians do not want to know what he has to tell, because many Christians fear the truth about their religion more than the Pharisees feared Jesus. But why should we fear truth and reality?
If there is a God, and you have a soul to be saved, never fear the truth! The truth about God and your religion can and will never harm your soul, but a false believe based on misunderstanding and falsifications can. So use your intellect and do not fear science.

And for the rest you can find everything HERE


Perception selects, and makes the world we see.
Ms. B. Have
Posted: Tuesday, May 29, 2012 9:38:50 AM

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Taliesin ap Elphin wrote:
Thank you Ms. B. Have for your time and effort to answer my question.

Or do I misquote you here?

I'm always wondering why so many orthodox and evangelical Christians like to play Russian Roulette with their Soul. Believing that they know and understand the “Word of God” while refusing to know when, why and by who that word was written and denying the historical knowledge we have about early Christianity. That is like pulling the trigger without checking where the bullet is.

That's why I take these “Words of God” seriously:


2 Jesus said, "Those who seek should not stop seeking until they find. When they find, they will be disturbed. When they are disturbed, they will marvel, and will reign over all. [And after they have reigned they will rest.]"

3 Jesus said, "If your leaders say to you, 'Look, the (Father's) kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you. Rather, the kingdom is within you and it is outside you.

When you know yourselves, then you will be known, and you will understand that you are children of the living Father. But if you do not know yourselves, then you live in poverty, and you are the poverty."

34 Jesus said, "If a blind person leads a blind person, both of them will fall into a hole."

39 Jesus said, "The Pharisees and the scribes (i.e. pastors and theologues) have taken the keys of knowledge and have hidden them. They have not entered nor have they allowed those who want to enter to do so.

49 Jesus said, "Congratulations to those who are alone and chosen, for you will find the kingdom. For you have come from it, and you will return there again."

107 Jesus said, The kingdom is like a shepherd who had a hundred sheep. One of them, the largest, went astray. He left the ninety- nine and looked for the one until he found it. After he had toiled, he said to the sheep, 'I love you more than the ninety- nine.'

Gospel of Thomas.


Perception selects, and makes the world we see.
Taliesin ap Elphin
Posted: Tuesday, May 29, 2012 12:55:32 PM

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Yes, Ms. B. Have...Thank you for your time and effort to answer my question. But if you could, do you think you could quote Scripture from the canon when talking to me? Because I'm still wrestling with the Gospel of Thomas in my mind.

"Unless someone cares a whole lot about something, nothing is going to change. It's not." - Dr. Seuss
jacobusmaximus
Posted: Tuesday, May 29, 2012 1:01:14 PM

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Ms. B.Have says "...But how do you know that what you believe is true?"

There is very little that we really know. Much of what we think we know we actually only believe by faith. For example, I believe that my mother is my birth mother, but I don't actually know that. I only believe by faith. But it is a faith built on sound reason. That is, I trust my mother to tell me the truth. So I believe by faith that my mother, is my birth mother. But I don't know that. In the same way I believe by faith that the Bible is the Word of God, but I don't know that either. However, I live as though I know it, and I think that is all anayone can do this side of heaven.

I remember, therefore I am.
almostfreebird
Posted: Tuesday, May 29, 2012 1:17:09 PM

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jacobusmaximus wrote:
Ms. B.Have says "...But how do you know that what you believe is true?"

There is very little that we really know. Much of what we think we know we actually only believe by faith. For example, I believe that my mother is my birth mother, but I don't actually know that. I only believe by faith. But it is a faith built on sound reason. That is, I trust my mother to tell me the truth. So I believe by faith that my mother, is my birth mother. But I don't know that. In the same way I believe by faith that the Bible is the Word of God, but I don't know that either. However, I live as though I know it, and I think that is all anayone can do this side of heaven.




Then you can't use the word "know" positively.

Tom: Who's that woman, Jacob?
Jacob: I don't know but I believe she is my mother, that's what she said.




Ms. B. Have
Posted: Tuesday, May 29, 2012 3:17:04 PM

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Ofcourse I could quote the New Testament Taliesin ap Elphin, but I won't. It would make no sense because your interpretation of these quotes would be completely different than my interpretation. We do not speak the same language when it comes to quoting the Bible. As long as you are wrestling with the Gospel of Thomas in your mind, my only advice is: “study”. Study everything there is to know about the first few ages of Christianity and the literature they produced, and make up your mind about it based on knowledge instead of superstition.

And that is what I'm talking about jacobusmaximus, not about things we have to believe because it is impossible to know, but about gathering the knowledge there is, so that we grow in knowledge and understanding. With this new knowledge and understanding we can reform our believe when ever that is necessary. But for that we need the courage to leave the herd, because as long as we are afraid to leave the floc, we are not free and able to search, and will never find.

“Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you.”

That was what Jesus said, not: “Obey the scribes and pharisees” or “Follow your pastor”, but: "Find your own way because the Kingdom of God is not "there" or "there" but inside you." That was why the Jewish clergy wanted to get rid of this guy, he was preaching disobedience to the authorities! That is something your church doesn't allow you to know, because on disobedience we can not build churches and powerful organisations. Therefore al the Christian documents that contained to much of these teachings had to be destroyed and were declared heretic. And now we have a New Testament we cannot truly understand anymore because the most important point of Jesus teachings was left out or obscured. That is why these rediscovered apocrypha's are so helpful in understanding the canonical scriptures. But as long as we prefer to obey our pastors and follow the floc, we will never find the truth about what we are told to believe.


Perception selects, and makes the world we see.
jacobusmaximus
Posted: Wednesday, May 30, 2012 8:55:27 AM

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almostfreebird wrote:
jacobusmaximus wrote:
Ms. B.Have says "...But how do you know that what you believe is true?"

There is very little that we really know. Much of what we think we know we actually only believe by faith. For example, I believe that my mother is my birth mother, but I don't actually know that. I only believe by faith. But it is a faith built on sound reason. That is, I trust my mother to tell me the truth. So I believe by faith that my mother, is my birth mother. But I don't know that. In the same way I believe by faith that the Bible is the Word of God, but I don't know that either. However, I live as though I know it, and I think that is all anayone can do this side of heaven.




Then you can't use the word "know" positively.

Tom: Who's that woman, Jacob?
Jacob: I don't know but I believe she is my mother, that's what she said.


Whatabout, Tom: Who's that woman Jacob?
Jacob. That's my Mum. (Thinks, I never give it a second thought, do I?) Now that is believing by faith.

I remember, therefore I am.
Ms. B. Have
Posted: Wednesday, May 30, 2012 9:39:44 AM

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jacobusmaximus wrote:
almostfreebird wrote:
jacobusmaximus wrote:
Ms. B.Have says "...But how do you know that what you believe is true?"

There is very little that we really know. Much of what we think we know we actually only believe by faith. For example, I believe that my mother is my birth mother, but I don't actually know that. I only believe by faith. But it is a faith built on sound reason. That is, I trust my mother to tell me the truth. So I believe by faith that my mother, is my birth mother. But I don't know that. In the same way I believe by faith that the Bible is the Word of God, but I don't know that either. However, I live as though I know it, and I think that is all anayone can do this side of heaven.


Then you can't use the word "know" positively.

Tom: Who's that woman, Jacob?
Jacob: I don't know but I believe she is my mother, that's what she said.


Whatabout, Tom: Who's that woman Jacob?
Jacob. That's my Mum. (Thinks, I never give it a second thought, do I?) Now that is believing by faith.


Now I really “lost” you Jacob!

First you are telling us that the only way to save our souls for eternity is to accept Jesus as our Lord and saviour, otherwise our soul is doomed for ever, but now you are telling that there is no need to use our intelligence to check if what we believe is the right stuff! In fact you are saying here: “As long as I believe it is OK, no matter what I believe.” Do I taste the taste of "(double)-predestination" here? ("double-predestination." ---> God decides if I believe and what I believe so I do not have to check that myself because I cannot change that without Gods will)



Perception selects, and makes the world we see.
Taliesin ap Elphin
Posted: Wednesday, May 30, 2012 9:58:56 AM

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I'm going to take a stab at what I think Jacob is shooting for. I think that he's not saying that we don't use our intellect to attempt to check whether or not we're 'correct' in our beliefs, but rather that, because of our intellect, we understand that we cannot understand everything, and so trust what we "know" of Scriptures, and furthermore, trust God (specifically, the Holy Spirit). Jacob, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

"Unless someone cares a whole lot about something, nothing is going to change. It's not." - Dr. Seuss
Ms. B. Have
Posted: Wednesday, May 30, 2012 10:22:34 AM

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107 Jesus said, The kingdom is like a shepherd who had a hundred sheep. One of them, the largest, went astray. He left the ninety- nine and looked for the one until he found it. After he had toiled, he said to the sheep, 'I love you more than the ninety- nine.'

Than maybe you, Taliesin ap Elphin and jacobus, belong to the ninety- nine, and I am the one who the shepherd loves more!

(75) Jesus said, "Many are standing at the door, but it is the solitary who will enter the bridal chamber."

Than maybe you, Taliesin ap Elphin and jacobus, are the ones standing at the door while you see me entering the bridal chamber!
If you are satisfied with that, I am satisfied too.

34 Jesus said, "If a blind person leads a blind person, both of them will fall into a hole."

In case it turns out that you both are the blind men here, than pray Jesus to send me, and I will come flying to you to save your poor souls out of that damn'd hole!


Perception selects, and makes the world we see.
Ms. B. Have
Posted: Wednesday, May 30, 2012 10:33:32 AM

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Taliesin ap Elphin wrote:
.....so trust what we "know" of Scriptures, and furthermore, trust God (specifically, the Holy Spirit)


But how do you "know" that you "know" the scriptures if you refuse to "know everything" there is to "know" about it? If you refuse to read and study the apocrypha's because you believe that they are heretic, than maybe you will never find out how corrupted the canon of the NT is?

Or:
Trust God and the Holy Spirit but do not trust your pastor and the men who wrote and changed the Bible! Because than you could turn out to be a blind man who was leaded by a blind man.

(Hope God thought about some rescue-dogs in Heaven...)


Perception selects, and makes the world we see.
Taliesin ap Elphin
Posted: Wednesday, May 30, 2012 1:19:33 PM

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Ms. B. Have wrote:
107 Jesus said, The kingdom is like a shepherd who had a hundred sheep. One of them, the largest, went astray. He left the ninety- nine and looked for the one until he found it. After he had toiled, he said to the sheep, 'I love you more than the ninety- nine.'

Than maybe you, Taliesin ap Elphin and jacobus, belong to the ninety- nine, and I am the one who the shepherd loves more!

(75) Jesus said, "Many are standing at the door, but it is the solitary who will enter the bridal chamber."

Than maybe you, Taliesin ap Elphin and jacobus, are the ones standing at the door while you see me entering the bridal chamber!
If you are satisfied with that, I am satisfied too.

34 Jesus said, "If a blind person leads a blind person, both of them will fall into a hole."

In case it turns out that you both are the blind men here, than pray Jesus to send me, and I will come flying to you to save your poor souls out of that damn'd hole!


I must ask where you're getting those verses from. Because the version of the Bible I read says that
1) We should behave like Jesus Christ.
2) We should not show partiality.
3) It never mentions Jesus saying "I love you more than the ninety-nine."

Looking at points (1) and (2): If we are to behave like Jesus, but not show partiality, then I think it is logical and safe to believe that Jesus does not show partiality. Therefore, he would not say, "I love you more than the ninety-nine."

"Unless someone cares a whole lot about something, nothing is going to change. It's not." - Dr. Seuss
Ms. B. Have
Posted: Wednesday, May 30, 2012 6:34:03 PM

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Taliesin ap Elphin wrote:
I must ask where you're getting those verses from. Because the version of the Bible I read says that
1) We should behave like Jesus Christ.
2) We should not show partiality.
3) It never mentions Jesus saying "I love you more than the ninety-nine."

Looking at points (1) and (2): If we are to behave like Jesus, but not show partiality, then I think it is logical and safe to believe that Jesus does not show partiality. Therefore, he would not say, "I love you more than the ninety-nine."


I must ask where you're getting those verses from.


From the Gospel of Thomas ofcourse, which is not in the canon of the New testament probably because it gives to much authority to the individual christian and women. A dangerous document for those who wanted to found a church in which everyone has to obey the pope and women have to shut their mouth.

Because the version of the Bible I read says that
1) We should behave like Jesus Christ.

Indeed we should! And Jesus was crucified because he misbehaved in the eyes of the clergy. He did not obey the Pharisees and scribes and even not the laws of the Jewish bible. And if we behave like Jesus we will be like Jesus, a son or daughter of His father.

2) We should not show partiality.
3) It never mentions Jesus saying "I love you more than the ninety-nine."


It is not about the way Jesus or God loves us, it is not a parable about the shepherd but about the sheep, we should ask ourself what is the reason why the shepherd loved the sheep that went astray more than the others who followed the shepherd. To understand that you have to ask yourself what was that sheep doing that made him walk astray? The answer is, he did what Jesus told us to do: “seek”

When you've lost something, let say a bunch of keys, and you have to search for it, then you have to look everywhere, because it would be a miracle if you find your keys on the first spot where you look. First you are searching on wrong places, where the keys are not, before you find them on the spot where they are. If you do not take the risk to look on the wrong place for your keys, you will never come to the right place. It's the same thing with finding the Kingdom of God. First you will have to look on places where you will not find it, then you are going astray, until you find what you were looking for. And the parable tells you that when the sheep goes astray, the shepherd will search for the sheep and find it! When you search for the Kingdom of God, the Kingdom of God will come to you. If you don't search, you will not be found.

Matthew 25:14-30 and Luke 19:12-28 about the talents is telling the same story, the slaves who spend the talents, risking to loose them, gain more and get a rewarded, the slave who is afraid to loose the talent does not gain more and loses everything.

That was what Jesus taught his disciples, salvation does not come from the scriptures, nor from the church (scribes and pharisees), not even from Jesus Himself, because if that was so then why He had to teach his followers? Salvation comes from finding the Kingdom of God by searching it, till you've found it. And because of that the shepherd loves the sheep who go astray more than those who do not have the courage to search until they find.

2 Jesus said, "Those who seek should not stop seeking until they find. (Gospel of Thomas)


How can I do that if I have to stay in the church where I was born and copy my pastor? I cannot serve two masters! Only those who dare to leave the herd to search for themself until they find will be found.



Perception selects, and makes the world we see.
almostfreebird
Posted: Saturday, December 22, 2012 6:43:46 AM

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Mrs. Robinson






And here's to you, Mrs. Robinson
Jesus loves you more than you will know (Wo, wo, wo)
God bless you please, Mrs. Robinson
Heaven holds a place for those who pray

We'd like to know a little bit about you for our files
We'd like to help you learn to help yourself
Look around you, all you see are sympathetic eyes
Stroll around the grounds until you feel at home

And here's to you, Mrs. Robinson
Jesus loves you more than you will know (Wo, wo, wo)
God bless you please, Mrs. Robinson
Heaven holds a place for those who pray

Hide it in a hiding place where no one ever goes
Put it in your pantry with your cupcakes
It's a little secret, just the Robinsons' affair
Most of all, you've got to hide it from the kids

Coo, coo, ca-choo, Mrs Robinson
Jesus loves you more than you will know (Wo, wo, wo)
God bless you please, Mrs. Robinson
Heaven holds a place for those who pray

Sitting on a sofa on a Sunday afternoon
Going to the candidates debate
Laugh about it, shout about it
When you've got to choose
Ev'ry way you look at it, you lose

Where have you gone, Joe DiMaggio
A nation turns it's lonely eyes to you (Woo, woo, woo)
What's that you say, Mrs. Robinson
Joltin' Joe has left and gone away




Related thread:

http://forum.thefreedictionary.com/postst31648_Why-do-atheists-celebrate-Christmas-.aspx













Daveski
Posted: Saturday, December 22, 2012 7:51:12 AM

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Another zombie thread brought back from the dead afb? Think

docendo discimus
Romany
Posted: Saturday, December 22, 2012 8:06:08 AM
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And the disruptive ghost of Ms.B. Have revived into the bargain. Its Xmas. We could really have done without memories of what invaded the forum around that time!
almostfreebird
Posted: Saturday, December 22, 2012 8:14:51 AM

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Daveski
Posted: Saturday, December 22, 2012 8:20:20 AM

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Romany wrote:
And the disruptive ghost of Ms.B. Have revived into the bargain. Its Xmas. We could really have done without memories of what invaded the forum around that time!


I think that afb is deliberately trying to invoke the zombie thread apocalypse. Anxious

docendo discimus
twinsonic
Posted: Saturday, December 29, 2012 11:01:39 AM

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Ms. B. Have wrote:
What do you think – do dogs have soul and do they go to heaven?

Read and have fun

But what if my dog is a sinner?



I don't know if you want a serious answer or not... but, I don't believe man has an immortal soul and goes to heaven, so dogs? No. Although, if I were in heaven there better be dogs as I need them for my personal happiness!

If dogs, then why not cats? Or birds? Then we get into any form of life.

Dogs can't "sin." Sin is a human concept. What constitutes "sin" differs so much from person to person too.

The argument between the churches was petty and inappropriate for institutions professing to live in Christ.
jacobusmaximus
Posted: Saturday, December 29, 2012 11:07:40 AM

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So, twinsonic, are arguments between peoples of different secular persuasions also petty and inappropriate considering that they generally consider themselves intellectually superior to Christians, among others?

I remember, therefore I am.
twinsonic
Posted: Saturday, December 29, 2012 12:04:26 PM

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jacobusmaximus wrote:
So, twinsonic, are arguments between peoples of different secular persuasions also petty and inappropriate considering that they generally consider themselves intellectually superior to Christians, among others?


Churches (the people representing them of course) put themselves into the position of living a godly life in imitation of Christ. They would do best to refrain from arguing in public, in such a public way.

If members, or clergy, want to get into the debate, do so in private. Otherwise it sets them up as worldwide subjects of ridicule and the butt of jokes, as seen in the article. Or, more likely, they are indeed Photoshopped, as is suggested by the comments.

If one is having a secular discussion I would doubt it would be about souls and whether a dog has one or not!

And I have never had a discussion with anyone secular who felt they were "intellectually superior to Christians"! I certainly don't feel that way. The religions of the world are filled with very intelligent people.

jacobusmaximus
Posted: Saturday, December 29, 2012 12:43:22 PM

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Matters of Doctrine are regularly discussed in private within Church Fellowhips and between different denominations. They usually come into a public forum only when introduced, or requested, by a member of the public, as in this thread.

Of course a secular discussion would not be about spiritual matters such as this OP, but people, usually non-believers, have been known to come to blows about whether or not aliens have visited the Earth. That's just for instance.

I remember, therefore I am.
almo 1
Posted: Monday, July 17, 2017 1:34:09 PM
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will
Posted: Monday, July 17, 2017 4:20:47 PM
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With respect, almo 1, was it really worth resurrecting a 5 year old thread just to post a picture of some dogs?


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