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Praise the Lord, my dog is a Catholic... Options
RubyMoon
Posted: Monday, April 30, 2012 3:21:35 PM
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I should probably explain why I told my Biology students that their pet dogs will go to Heaven when they die.

Since there is some Scripture-Quoting going on here, I've always been mystified by the following: And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen. (John 21:25)

To me, this says that we don't know far more than we do know about the Life of Christ. So many, many times I've wondered what He told the children who gathered about Him, and especially about the one "little one" He must have certainly taken upon His lap and comforted.
That little child who was crying over the recent death of a beloved pet and friend. I visualize a very simple scene and conversation where the child says "Lord, will my dog be with me in Paradise…?" … What a sincere and innocent question for a child to ask. And so, I wonder what He said.

Maybe many of you have taken your own child into your lap when you were asked the same question… What did you say?

When I was little I well remember sitting in my father's lap… "But, Daddy, will I see my dog in Heaven someday?" He most solemnly stared into my eyes and wiped away my baby-tears with a gentle and reassuring hand and said YES. Such a great peace would wash over me, and I was out the door in no time skipping around the field catching butterflies with enthusiasm and a light heart.

What a harmless question. What a harmless answer considering all the evil and hypocrisy in the world which has no quick-and-easy remedy, only complex, cyclic rhetoric.

I never brought up the dead-dog-soul (or some variation) subject in class, some of my students did (every semester). And I never did NOT answer (to the best of my ability) their off-topic (hmmm?) questions. Afterall, Biology is 'the study of life'.
These types of questions - will I see my dog again, etc., were usually asked by one brave teary-eyed student, but the classroom atmosphere would become solemn with expectation…
I would say YES and a discussion would follow with all sorts of theories thrown into the mix. The best thing to come of it was how much better most of them did on the next exam (a few days later).

This thread if full of interesting opinions, arguments, links, etc. I've enjoyed all of it!

But, no, jacobmax, I'm not "making Jesus a liar" because I believe dogs go to heaven. That's a harsh statement and not your shot to call (in my opinion). And respectfully (and I do 'see' where you're coming from), I would think long and hard about returning here and even hinting such. Here's why: you would then be saying that my father was making Jesus a liar, and that implies a very grave sin. In my mind that means you are telling me (no, actually judging and deciding) that my father, a man of tremendous Faith and Grace, of honor and dignity, a scientist, artist, poet, craftsman, musician… may possibly be burning in hell right now.
SilvatungdaViel
Posted: Monday, April 30, 2012 3:34:53 PM

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dusty
Posted: Monday, April 30, 2012 5:45:14 PM

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While I understand the view that all life is sacred, because I also share that view, there are examples of having to do work that favors adherence to a hierarchy. I do not believe that humans must leave it up to fate and suffer an insect infestation without killing the insects to be free of infestation (here I use the term insect to mean true insect, bugs, acarids such as lice and ticks. I DO NOT MEAN any e-term for humans or other slang term for bugs or insects)

I even understand having to exterminate members of my own class, mammalia, for I do not believe that my Lord wanted human beings to suffer the diseases associated with rodents infesting food supply storage.And again I mean rodents as mice and rats and not any slang term or e-terms for humans or any other species. I mean only those whose order is that of Rodentia.

But I do believe there are lines that can be crossed wherein killing those whom I listed above is wrong. It is wrong to kill a mouse in the woods, or even a poisonous spider or snake. If I were camping and there was one in my tent, it would be a different story with regards to the poisonous species but I could certainly understand people who were upset at me for doing so (if I flushed a mouse out of my tent but exterminated a rattle snake in the same situation.

I do believe that all species have their place here and I do not believe we were meant to live in Antarctica to be free from pests and unconscious human behavior. While there are certainly things that need to be worked out regarding humans and their behavior, I am adamantly against the use of subtlety as I believe if you refuse to use open and direct communication that those in charge of moderating the process of accounting for all opinions should not have to suffer passive aggressive behavior nor put in the extra time it takes to decipher convoluted talk.

When tactics used in politics are such that the very topics and issues discussed and presented to the public are so far from the truth of the matter or simplified to the point that they are not at all what is going on, it becomes pointless to have a democratic public vote.

Deception in what is presented to the public should not be tolerated. We have gotten way to far away from an honest distinction between fact and opinion and it is destroying my countries democratic system.





To be concerned of the fate of the world is not bad, but bearing false witness is to not be
dusty
Posted: Monday, April 30, 2012 5:58:14 PM

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Thank you SilvatungdaViel, I share the belief that only humans have the ability to be evil. I cannot in good conscience consider the serpent nor the shark to be evil. They are symbolism of what human being are capable of after our species rose above the existence in innocence.

Although I really cannot say that that was your message intended in providing the links. So if it was, I tend to agree.

To be concerned of the fate of the world is not bad, but bearing false witness is to not be
Ms. B. Have
Posted: Monday, April 30, 2012 7:04:47 PM

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dusty wrote:
Deception in what is presented to the public should not be tolerated. We have gotten way to far away from an honest distinction between fact and opinion and it is destroying my countries democratic system.

I consider all life equally sacred without any distinction related to the form or usefulness of the animal or vegetable. The funny fly walking over my monitor-screen is just like me a child of nature and of God if God exists, and I claim no more right to live and be happy as that adorable fly, that now is looking for a cosy place on my screen to leave his droppings, has. But life and death are indissoluble connected, flies have to be eaten by creepy spiders otherwise within a couple of month the sky will be black of less funny flies coming to eat me. Killing is commanded by nature and by God if God exists.

I do not know if my fly has a soul, but believing he has helps me a lot. Killing a fly with a soul before he paste his poops on my screen will be more easy to do knowing that I do him the favour to spend more time in heaven than I will.

But actually I miss the point what this has to do with democracy? In democracy deception is always used to gain votes, without lies no politics, proving that the most politicians belong to a lower life form than my recently deceased brother fly who never lied to me. Don't put the blame on my fly, In fact I will not tolerate that.


Perception selects, and makes the world we see.
dusty
Posted: Monday, April 30, 2012 8:18:46 PM

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Ms. B. Have,

I am not blaming any fly, souless or with soul, so I don't know if you not tolerating that blame is directed at me or what exactly you are speaking of metaphorically.

If you are saying that my mention of it means I am the metaphorical fly, I can edit out anything you don't want on your post. As for politics, I am already well aware of the power held by those in the industry of politics, I have experienced their abuses first hand. I would rather suffer whatever threats they imply then live in fear or intimidation.

To be concerned of the fate of the world is not bad, but bearing false witness is to not be
Ms. B. Have
Posted: Monday, April 30, 2012 9:33:35 PM

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Oh no dear please don't take me wrong, your life is not at all at stake. If you will be my metaphorical fly on my screen, please do so, I will not at all intimidate but only give you a complete freedom to leave behind what ever you consider me worthy enough for, without me repaying you any hope on a premature courtesy visitation at our Lord creator's. I was only wondering what exactly the connection is between the first and the last part of your post. What have deception and the destroying of your countries democratic system to do with our respect for the innocent living part of creation or our soul searching for them? I'm only that blond that I need some more explanation. Here in my country we have a politcal party for animals in our parliament, I voted twice for them, maybe that will fill in the gap in my comprehension?



Perception selects, and makes the world we see.
dusty
Posted: Monday, April 30, 2012 11:19:16 PM

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Thank you for the clarification Be,

Because I wasn't clear and I am not sure a reply allows for enough characters to address it properly. Then there is the whole thing about people getting upset that the subject is not brought up in a new thread. But anyway, it has to do with the whole idea of innocence and accountability. Although I do believe that all humans will be held accountable for their actions and for the way their actions directly (and indirectly) affect the lives or even the perceptions, of other people. There is no "perfect" system that has been devised as a set of rules with which to guide a government, unless all branches of said government actions are ethical, transparent, and laws enacted are
applied equally and universally, and if they aren't then being transparent about it the only ethical work around.

I believe that the current state of my beloved country is a perfect example of how a near perfect system of governing will fail, no matter what the status of power and world influence when those governing bodies and branches fail to understand the level of sacred responsibility that their government job entails. The People remain innocent when the leaders fail to be honest in their choice of tactics to present who they are to the public (ie how they represent)

So I guess in all fairness, it was off topic

To be concerned of the fate of the world is not bad, but bearing false witness is to not be
jacobusmaximus
Posted: Tuesday, May 01, 2012 3:05:58 AM

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RubyMoon wrote:
I should probably explain why I told my Biology students that their pet dogs will go to Heaven when they die.

Since there is some Scripture-Quoting going on here, I've always been mystified by the following: And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen. (John 21:25)

To me, this says that we don't know far more than we do know about the Life of Christ. So many, many times I've wondered what He told the children who gathered about Him, and especially about the one "little one" He must have certainly taken upon His lap and comforted.
That little child who was crying over the recent death of a beloved pet and friend. I visualize a very simple scene and conversation where the child says "Lord, will my dog be with me in Paradise…?" … What a sincere and innocent question for a child to ask. And so, I wonder what He said.

Maybe many of you have taken your own child into your lap when you were asked the same question… What did you say?

When I was little I well remember sitting in my father's lap… "But, Daddy, will I see my dog in Heaven someday?" He most solemnly stared into my eyes and wiped away my baby-tears with a gentle and reassuring hand and said YES. Such a great peace would wash over me, and I was out the door in no time skipping around the field catching butterflies with enthusiasm and a light heart.

What a harmless question. What a harmless answer considering all the evil and hypocrisy in the world which has no quick-and-easy remedy, only complex, cyclic rhetoric.

I never brought up the dead-dog-soul (or some variation) subject in class, some of my students did (every semester). And I never did NOT answer (to the best of my ability) their off-topic (hmmm?) questions. Afterall, Biology is 'the study of life'.
These types of questions - will I see my dog again, etc., were usually asked by one brave teary-eyed student, but the classroom atmosphere would become solemn with expectation…
I would say YES and a discussion would follow with all sorts of theories thrown into the mix. The best thing to come of it was how much better most of them did on the next exam (a few days later).

This thread if full of interesting opinions, arguments, links, etc. I've enjoyed all of it!

But, no, jacobmax, I'm not "making Jesus a liar" because I believe dogs go to heaven. That's a harsh statement and not your shot to call (in my opinion). And respectfully (and I do 'see' where you're coming from), I would think long and hard about returning here and even hinting such. Here's why: you would then be saying that my father was making Jesus a liar, and that implies a very grave sin. In my mind that means you are telling me (no, actually judging and deciding) that my father, a man of tremendous Faith and Grace, of honor and dignity, a scientist, artist, poet, craftsman, musician… may possibly be burning in hell right now.


Well, RubyMoon, I am glad you can see where I am coming from, but I have to tell you that I cannot say the same for you. You see, you are leaving God out of the equation. I can say, with sincerity, the same about my father as you say about yours, but like your father he was a sinner (or Scripture is wrong), but a sinner saved by grace. I would have told my children the same thing your father told you when your dog died. Of course I would. Who would see a child suffer when there was no need? I told them about Santa Clause - I am 'Santa Clause' every year in our Village Hall. There are things you do and say for children's comfort and joy that are not necessarily true, but that doesn't make you a liar.
But, RubyMoon, we are not dealing with children in this topic. We are discussing matters spiritual and the absolute truth is essential even if it hurts. Remeber these importnat facts:
Man is made in the image of God (dogs and cats etc., are not).
God came into the world in the form of man (not a dog).
Jesus came to save sinners (dogs etc are not sinners)
Jesus said 'no man comes to the Father except by me' (show me the dog that seeks salvation in Christ Jesus).

Look, Jesus is not going to wave a magic wand and transfom the whole of fallen creation into a perfect world. If that was His intention I am sure he would have done it by now. We have got to see beyond the world - and the universe - we live in. Heaven is a whole new Ball game. There will be greater things than man and dog. There will be greater things than sunrise and sunset. There will be more beatiful things than trees and flowers. There will be a love that is greater than anything we can experience in this life. God will 'wipe away every tear from our eyes'. There won't be any more dying to weep about. In this Heaven there will only be room for those whom God has saved. Those who are not 'in' Christ will not be there. Sorry, no unrepentant sinners, and no dogs.

I remember, therefore I am.
dusty
Posted: Tuesday, May 01, 2012 3:41:31 AM

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Jacobusmaximus,

Before I made any statements that I was prepared to stand by through thick and thin, I would at least make an attempt to learn the tongue the original works, or at least what is left of them, and from the old Greek versions, or whatever written language they were in, and read it again to see if maybe there was a little more open for interpretation then what churches have been preaching for hundreds of years.

Again, they did not have the vocabulary and more detailed terminology that we have these days as science has filled in more of the holes that to be honest, I was pretty impressed with the ways the disciples did come up with to put it in words in order to share their thoughts. I don't speak or write Greek, and I have never read the sources that the compiled bible we have today had pulled from. But I do think that there are possibly other meanings that could be behind the term "made in the image of God"

for instance, something along the lines of the DNA that every cell carries complete copies of, that have within our 46 chromosomes. Perhaps the passage meant we are fashioned the same way God is, as we are all ultimately fashioned by the same 46 chromosomes, but we do not all look close enough to one another that we easily confuse each other upon visual traits.

None of are without sin, none of the living that I know of anyway, and none of US seems to be able to understand that we would be ultimately more free and much more happy and content if we had no secrets that we were ashamed enough to feel that we must not reveal them. The world could be a Heaven, perhaps even great enough to be considered God's Kingdom, but only if everyone believed in the love that Jesus taught about. So while if definitely could still be heaven if people followed the same teachings, another way to state that which could easily get go through a subtle change through translations to other written languages could be that of "no other way accept through Jesus's words"
"no other way except through Jesus and his teachings"
"no other way but to accept Jesus's lessons"
"only through Jesus and what he says is the way"
"there is no other way but through Him"

I don't mean to pick on you Jacobusmaximus, but just to bring to light that perhaps we should not let technicalities that have no straight forward, definitive yes or no examples, be things that divide people the declare the same faith, to the point that the gift of Heaven is not accepted.

So I should away from asserting one interpretation over another, and just say "are these details worth the bitter divisions they have made between the People?"

To be concerned of the fate of the world is not bad, but bearing false witness is to not be
Ms. B. Have
Posted: Tuesday, May 01, 2012 4:52:54 AM

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I'm glad we both, Dusty and I, consider my by ruthless violence destroyed life of a fly still too precious to be compared with the soul of a politician. The reason that I have been voting for the “party for animals” was that they brought in something special in politics, the idea that: “the amount of respect a society is showing towards other life-forms than humans is a criterion to measure the standard of civilisation of that society”. I share and spread this word as a gospel because when I see how mankind is bare stripping mother earth and gang-banging Gaia as a bunch of numbskulls, a civilized thought like that could shine a little light in our darkness and become mankinds salvation, or at least it can help us to destroy ourself a little more decent.

The question if God has given my dog a soul will never be answered by me as long as I'm that much bound to earth that I have to call myself a sack full bones (Don't tell my dog, she loves bones). That I as a member of mankind may be special in the eyes of God does not give me the right to treat less human brothers and sisters on this earth condescendingly and ridiculise them because they are not given a soul, the more the fact that I have no security at all that I received one myself. But playing for God and donating a soul to my dog, and trough her to every living creature on earth, I make other life-forms more equal to mine, serving myself by doing so because their salvation from humans wrath can become mankind's salvation from his own downfall caused by his own bestial behaviour. And if in the end my dog turns out to be soulless, then I hope that by giving her one by myself, I've showed myself a little more soul-worthy in the eyes of my creator. Amen.


Jacobusmaximus: "...but like your father he was a sinner (or Scripture is wrong)"

Objection! Not the scripture is wrong but your interpretation of that scripture could be wrong. We read the same book but we get an opposite message, because we both, you and I, have a different interpretation of these words.

Writing = interpret
Translating = interpret
Reading = interpret
Understanding = interpret
God's written word = an interpretation


I do not say that my interpretation is right, because I know it is only an interpretation and because of that I'm always willing to change my interpretation as soon as there is more light shining in my brains, and doing so I feel myself a little angel flying more and more towards her Heavenly Father. What you consider a truth can be completely false because of a wrong interpretation, and because of that like theories interpretations need to be tested constantly an changed as soon as they conflict with reality. In that we are equal and will always, Be.



Perception selects, and makes the world we see.
dusty
Posted: Tuesday, May 01, 2012 7:32:48 AM

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easy there Be, Like Ruby says, only the the blood line of those whom Jesus said "follow me" and kept records that their children's children's children's...etc and maybe only on each generations maternal side, might be able to better interpret the ancestors writing.

unless of course you can hear (answer) the authors voice in reading their written word. There maybe people who are alive today that could help settle some of these two thousand year old disputes. Then we can be more sure if we deserve to scream at people or if we are the ones that need to be screamed at.

I am sure there are plenty of historical records. We just need to find this Terry fellow which shouldn't be hard to do as I have never heard of Terry being a common name way back when

To be concerned of the fate of the world is not bad, but bearing false witness is to not be
percivalpecksniff
Posted: Tuesday, May 01, 2012 8:03:09 AM

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I have entertained the notion that insects go to heaven and these are my conclusions.

It is claimed in this thread that insects go to heaven. What happens then to those of us who swat a fly, debug a bed or spray fields of crops and kill the blighters? Are we guilty of murder? Should we hold a court hearing, or will one be held in heaven?

Insects are not moral beings and are not subject to scrutiny.

If these bugs have a right to life in heaven why the do they not have a right to life here?

If a wasp builds a nest in my loft I will have no compunction in eliminating them. Or if living in a tropical country I would have no qualms about spraying an infestation of cockroaches.

Praise the lord, leave the locust plague alone and let them devestate the farmers crops... after all the locusts are destined for heaven!!! Don't mess with the lords work!

Just let these folk who claim they would not swat a fly see how they would react under a pest infection, say, of rats or cockroaches or human fleas. It is never a good idea to live in cloud-cuckoo land.

It quite plain that the notion that a squashed bug, or any other insect, goes to heaven is nothing short of ridiculous. I find it hard to credit that anyone can believe such a notion.


It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. Aristotle
jacobusmaximus
Posted: Tuesday, May 01, 2012 8:08:59 AM

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Dusty, Ms. B. Have and others who might be interested. Read the folowing three verses of scripture and tell me that I need to study Greek, Hebrew, Latin or Aramaic to understand them:
Romans 3:23, John 14:6, John 6:44.

If you like, you can tell me what you think they are saying to you.

I remember, therefore I am.
RubyMoon
Posted: Tuesday, May 01, 2012 8:58:28 AM
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You missed the whole point of my post, jacob. Your thinking and chronic scripture quoting is too one-dimensional for me, and intolerant toward all who think differently from you.
Ray41
Posted: Tuesday, May 01, 2012 9:08:44 AM

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Pope John Paul II:
'Animals Possess A Soul'

Pope John Paul II declared in a public audience
in 1990 that "also the animals possess a soul and
men must love and feel solidarity with our smaller brethren".
He said, too, that they are the "fruit of the creative
action of the Holy Spirit and merit respect," and are
as near to God as men are."

The Pope went on to say that, "animals have the breath
of life and were given it by God. In this respect, man
created by the hand of God is identical with all living
creatures. ... The existence therefore of all living creatures
depends on the living spirit/breath of God that not only
creates but also sustains and renews the face of the earth."


While I live I grow.
Ray41
Posted: Tuesday, May 01, 2012 9:10:13 AM

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"Heaven goes by favour. If it went by merit,
you would stay out and your dog would go in."
Mark Twain



"The dog is a gentleman; I hope to go to his
heaven, not man's."
Mark Twain, letter to WD Howells 1899


While I live I grow.
percivalpecksniff
Posted: Tuesday, May 01, 2012 9:19:19 AM

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Ray... not everyone quotes the pope as an authority. Not surprising considering their wicked history... presiding over the inquisitions for example.

It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. Aristotle
GeorgeV
Posted: Tuesday, May 01, 2012 9:20:18 AM

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Heaven is not a place
http://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP2HEAVN.HTM

Brain-washing starts in the cradle. - Arthur Koestler
RubyMoon
Posted: Tuesday, May 01, 2012 9:24:32 AM
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Ray41... Great ! Thanks so much for the information. Pope John Paul II was a progressive and innovative man. He said that his overwhelming love of music was his greatest sin.

Thanks George !
SilvatungdaViel
Posted: Tuesday, May 01, 2012 10:53:51 AM

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There were some early Gnostic sects that believed that physical life on earth was the real Hell and when you consider diseases, famine, the number of wars and just the overall amount of suffering observed at home and abroad who in their right mind could argue in disagreement? And the existence of mosquitoes, gnats, bedbugs, roaches and rats, etc. are just the icing on this diabolical cake and more proof again that nature doesn't neglect either, good or evil, as we see and perceive it.

I recall many years ago in an interview on 60Minutes by the late Mike Wallace with the Dalai Lama during his visit to the US there was a question posed in an effort to understand where the Dalai's head and heart stood exactly with regard to life in general. His response left me feeling that he was a bit of a fraud and only faking his 'closer than thou' relationship with God and he's doing nothing more than just filling a role. "How would you react if a mosquito landed on you?", he was asked. The Dalai Lama responded by gently brushing it away demonstrating care and caution not to hurt the poor mosquito while a big smile on his face to apparently demonstrate his belief in the sanctity of all life. This response actually annoyed me that seemed pretentious to say the least because what if that mosquito then flew over and landed on me whom it then bit giving me malaria, as a hypothetical example. His answer was also at odds with something that I had just learned before regarding some eastern religious beliefs that 'Life is the preparation for death', and he's demonstrating that that philosophy ain't good enough for a mosquito? That's why I wear my 'Excalibre' swatter on my belt at all times during 'quito season... "SMACK !!!"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hqyc37aOqT0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ptjUhuv90vs&feature=related

'DON'T TREAD ON ME'
percivalpecksniff
Posted: Tuesday, May 01, 2012 11:10:42 AM

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Hear, hear Silva

It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. Aristotle
jacobusmaximus
Posted: Tuesday, May 01, 2012 11:33:42 AM

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RubyMoon wrote:
You missed the whole point of my post, jacob. Your thinking and chronic scripture quoting is too one-dimensional for me, and intolerant toward all who think differently from you.


Chronic Scripture quoting? That is unfair RubyMoon. There are some on this topic about whom you might say that but when you say that about me you are just trying to be insulting and offensive. I try to back up my statements with scripture references and you would do well to do the same. Even better, you could refrain from mixing the Word of God with imagined scenarios and statements. It only serves to confuse you and maybe some readers. It seems that you find three fundamental Biblical truths too much to handle, so I am not surprised that you hurry to find comfort in the totally unscriptural words of the Pope.

I remember, therefore I am.
dusty
Posted: Tuesday, May 01, 2012 11:56:36 AM

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J

Romans, besides the apparent voice in that chapter and the blatant use colon and semi-colon I think few people, especially at a forum like this one, will have little trouble not arguing the details of chapter 3 and taking such hardline stances as to cause bitter divisions.

John, besides what Ruby already pointed out and then again, the same author, only now saying it "the truth" by John's use of comma, he pretty much says it that being honest is a key. I am starting to get the feeling you think a semi-colon would have been a more clear way to proceed with "no man cometh unto the Father, but by me" and after reading Romans and Galatians I can certainly understand your frustration with editors.

Jacobusmaximus, you know that linguistics and punctuations are not my forte, but at least I am trying to learn, a little bit, as far as you know, else why would I use this forum as my last ditch attempt to throw a monkey wrench into the cogs of all religion Muslim, Judaism, Christianity, and even Atheism once and for all?

But just for safety measures, maybe you or Be should go first, you know, just in case the gears start rolling again and it appears there is no way to stop it, at least the two of you would have been able to enter Heaven. And not that I don't trust the authors nor the editors and certainly I trust Jesus the Christ's words (which is why I find it weird they didn't let him get a word in written wise) because I do trust Jesus the Christ and His Father, but if either of you, again just for safety reasons and just because we all do seem to have slightly different ideas, if you wouldn't mind yelling back Yea or Neh on whether or not you each think it's worth the risk of the monkey wrench not being able to hold back the gears of spiritual death that rumble within all this dispute)

And for Our sake, once your through please much sure you enunciate between the yes or no like never before in your life, in fact, maybe before you go (just in case you do make it through) yell both yea or neh just so we know what to listen for. Because if it sounds too much alike, maybe we should use one for yes and two for get ready and three for no. Or maybe if one of you wouldn't mind tying a string around your waste.

To be concerned of the fate of the world is not bad, but bearing false witness is to not be
dusty
Posted: Tuesday, May 01, 2012 12:04:10 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 4/13/2012
Posts: 1,765
Neurons: 5,733
I can't believe this slipped my mind, why don't you take an iphone and call us from the inside, maybe even text us pictures. If you make it through why not take advantage of technology?

Percival, I never said I wouldn't exterminate a wasp's nest, I am allergic to their stings, but if Ms. B. Have doesn't choose to I would think we would each be allowed to not exterminate a wasp's nest if it is our house in Heaven, the same as she could choose to not exterminate a wasp's nest on Earth. But you wouldn't catch me over at her house without an epi-pen

To be concerned of the fate of the world is not bad, but bearing false witness is to not be
SilvatungdaViel
Posted: Tuesday, May 01, 2012 12:23:21 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 9/7/2011
Posts: 298
Neurons: 733
Location: United States, VA
Jacobus,

You're not helping the cause...


To the contrary...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4OR6dTnc5yA

'DON'T TREAD ON ME'
RubyMoon
Posted: Tuesday, May 01, 2012 12:45:29 PM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 6/30/2009
Posts: 1,666
Neurons: 4,834
Location: United States
Sorry, jacob - I stand by everything I've said. And I certainly do not "imagine" scenarios, etc. in any small way. My imagination has served me quite well.

I won't return here again to address you.

It's true, you do not help the "cause" you so deeply seem to believe in. I have a hard time understanding such a narrow-minded view and approach. It makes me sick. I don't get it. I just don't get it.
Ms. B. Have
Posted: Tuesday, May 01, 2012 6:14:42 PM

Rank: Member

Joined: 4/6/2012
Posts: 355
Neurons: 686
dusty wrote:
But just for safety measures, maybe you or Be should go first, you know, just in case the gears start rolling again and it appears there is no way to stop it, at least the two of you would have been able to enter Heaven. And not that I don't trust the authors nor the editors and certainly I trust Jesus the Christ's words (which is why I find it weird they didn't let him get a word in written wise) because I do trust Jesus the Christ and His Father, but if either of you, again just for safety reasons and just because we all do seem to have slightly different ideas, if you wouldn't mind yelling back Yea or Neh on whether or not you each think it's worth the risk of the monkey wrench not being able to hold back the gears of spiritual death that rumble within all this dispute)

And for Our sake, once your through please much sure you enunciate between the yes or no like never before in your life, in fact, maybe before you go (just in case you do make it through) yell both yea or neh just so we know what to listen for. Because if it sounds too much alike, maybe we should use one for yes and two for get ready and three for no. Or maybe if one of you wouldn't mind tying a string around your waste.

Objection! I never yell'd to Jacobusmaximus, if you think so, you read it out to loud.

My beloved Jacobusmaximus and I have a totally different approach to the bible, because we stand in a totally different theological tradition. On university, many years ago before my brains started to prolapse, I was taught to study the bible in the so called “historical-critical method” or “higher criticism”, that is a branch of literary criticism that investigates the origins of ancient texts in order to understand the world behind the text. In this method we see the bible as written by men inspired by their religious believe and culture. With a little fantasy we see the bible as a kind of forum avant la lettre like this, where different people tell their own story, but a forum that was moderated by men who decided what will be published and what not. From this point of view we can deal with the idea that not everything that is written in the bible about God, sin or salvation may be seen as true. The writer can have had wrongs idea's about it, maybe a political agenda more than a religious, made mistakes or mistakes were made when the text was translated, copied or edited by someone else.

As far as I know my great Jacobus, he stands in a total other tradition where the Bible is seen as the word of God, dictated and written down without mistakes. Beside of that I grew up in a totally different religious environment than jacobusmaximus did, two traditions which divided my nation in such away that we loved to kill each other for centuries.

For that it makes no sense to me just take out one or two quotes of the Gospel and discuss the interpretation of it. We will never agree due to the totally different approach to the Bible as word of God and religion in common. I respect his point of view but do not copy it, and I respect the fact that we will never agree till the day that jacobusmaximus and I stand hand in hand before the throne of our Father who, according to my tradition, surely will make jokes about our stupid words in this forum, jokes who I probably will have to explain to jacobusmaximus, because I understand our Father better than he does. (joke)

Perception selects, and makes the world we see.
jacobusmaximus
Posted: Tuesday, May 01, 2012 6:53:27 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 4/17/2009
Posts: 10,948
Neurons: 347,928
Location: Glasgow, Scotland, United Kingdom
SilvatungdaViel wrote:
Jacobus,

You're not helping the cause...


To the contrary...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4OR6dTnc5yA


I don't follow you Silva. And I can't understand RubyMoon's ire either. Look and listen again to the link you sent me. There is, says the interviewer, and David Kinneman agrees, a lack of the transcendent in the Church (by Church I mean the visible everyday life of active, committed Christians). There is no sense of Holiness. Why? I say it is because so many Church people are convinced that they have 'arrived'. They think they don't need to continue working out their salvation. Portions of Scripture that they don't understand are put away out of reach high up in the book shelves. RubyMoon can't grasp how it is that 'Jesus did so many more things that could not, if written down, be contained in all the world's libraries. That's because you are treating the risen Christ like an ordinary man, Ruby. He wasn't. He was God. He could appear everywhere at the same time. Not just to the fishermen in their boat. While he was cooking the fish he was healing the sick, feeding the poor, raising the dead, saving the lost. Expect great things of God and the relationships and truths of this world will make way for the greatness of Heaven.

I remember, therefore I am.
HWNN1961
Posted: Tuesday, May 01, 2012 8:24:59 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 2/13/2010
Posts: 3,498
Neurons: 9,763
Ms B,

To reiterate my support for the validity of the topic, I'll quote what I wrote the other day after adding another point:

It's worth remembering that the purpose of philosophy to talk about precisely subjects like this. If you wish to explore syntax stick with the section on English grammar. If numbers are your thing, there is business, and on.

I highlight what I thought was the most important part of my post:



The topic seemed valid to me, and worthy of thought. I believe it is the Jain religion that believes all life is sacred, even the lowest forms.

Are they right? I don't know. But I allow for the possibility.

When I pray for those that I've lost, I also pray for all the souls that have passed away. Note that I didn't specify "human" souls.

What does and does not constitute a soul, and which life forms have them, I leave to God. It's enough for me to be inclusive, and remember them all when I pray.

The larger issue on display here has been a rather graphic and a telling comparision between open and closed minds based on their reactions to the subject matter. Some didn't do themselves very proud in this exercise.[/quote]

"Be without fear in the face of your enemies. Be brave and upright that God may love thee. Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death. Safeguard the helpless, and do no wrong". (Knight's Oath, Kingdom of Heaven)
SilvatungdaViel
Posted: Tuesday, May 01, 2012 8:32:26 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 9/7/2011
Posts: 298
Neurons: 733
Location: United States, VA
Basically, there are two types of Christians of which the first believes that the scriptures to some extent were written in allegory and metaphor where there are divine mysteries hidden meant to be unveiled regarding the fate and destiny of the Soul and the more radically extremist type of Christians who believe that the bible is nothing less than the literal word of God.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWAyLvSbLcE&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fg8WlXZxAgQ&feature=related

'DON'T TREAD ON ME'
Ms. B. Have
Posted: Tuesday, May 01, 2012 8:58:08 PM

Rank: Member

Joined: 4/6/2012
Posts: 355
Neurons: 686
HWNN1961 I must honestly admit that it is as clear as mud to me what you are tying to say. I read your post several times over again, but I have not the slightest idea what I should do with this information, I fear you have to give it another more specific try.




Perception selects, and makes the world we see.
jacobusmaximus
Posted: Wednesday, May 02, 2012 3:14:47 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 4/17/2009
Posts: 10,948
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Location: Glasgow, Scotland, United Kingdom
SilvatungdaViel wrote:
Basically, there are two types of Christians of which the first believes that the scriptures to some extent were written in allegory and metaphor where there are divine mysteries hidden meant to be unveiled regarding the fate and destiny of the Soul and the more radically extremist type of Christians who believe that the bible is nothing less than the literal word of God.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWAyLvSbLcE&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fg8WlXZxAgQ&feature=related


Thanks for the links Silva, but these are journalists/writers/wordsmsiths trying to make a living through discussing sensitive issues and adding a touch of humour. They pigeonhole people, just as you are doing by saying there are basically two types of Christians. You KNOW this? Did they Crucify the wrong guy back then?

I think I am probably one of the Christians you refer to who believes in the 'literal word of God'. If you mean by that that I take the words of the Bible literally you could not be more wrong. I sure do believe that the Bible is the Word of God for us today, but I am happy to acknowledge that it comprises poetry, philosophy and prophecy and much else that we should not take literally. If I may be as bold as yourself for a moment, I think you are the kind of person who takes a Scripture verse in isolation and uses it to challenge, prove or disprove something or someone. That is not helpful to anyone.

I remember, therefore I am.
Ms. B. Have
Posted: Wednesday, May 02, 2012 5:58:21 AM

Rank: Member

Joined: 4/6/2012
Posts: 355
Neurons: 686
Yes jacobusmaximus there have always been two types of Christians, that is a historical fact you are able to know if you study the urly history of the church and christianity. Jesus taught the Gospel on two different levels of comprehension. Note everyone in Jesus time like in ours was clever or educated and could read and write or had the time to study. Salvation is not done by a magic trick of God but by knowledge. The fall of man is caused by the knowledge of evil, and salvation is done by the knowledge of good. That is why Jesus was not a magician who saved some lucky souls with a bloody trick, but a teacher of the knowledge of good. But as said not everyone is able to study and understand this knowledge and that is why they are saved merciful by their believe. Therefore the followers of Jesus were divided into two groups, those who understood the knowledge “Gnosis”, and those who had to believe “Fides”, Jesus was teaching on both levels: “Who has ears to hear he will hear”.



Perception selects, and makes the world we see.
jacobusmaximus
Posted: Wednesday, May 02, 2012 6:57:17 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 4/17/2009
Posts: 10,948
Neurons: 347,928
Location: Glasgow, Scotland, United Kingdom
Ms. B. Have wrote:
Yes jacobusmaximus there have always been two types of Christians, that is a historical fact you are able to know if you study the urly history of the church and christianity. Jesus taught the Gospel on two different levels of comprehension. Note everyone in Jesus time like in ours was clever or educated and could read and write or had the time to study. Salvation is not done by a magic trick of God but by knowledge. The fall of man is caused by the knowledge of evil, and salvation is done by the knowledge of good. That is why Jesus was not a magician who saved some lucky souls with a bloody trick, but a teacher of the knowledge of good. But as said not everyone is able to study and understand this knowledge and that is why they are saved merciful by their believe. Therefore the followers of Jesus were divided into two groups, those who understood the knowledge “Gnosis”, and those who had to believe “Fides”, Jesus was teaching on both levels: “Who has ears to hear he will hear”.


Well I am so glad that you and Silva are at one. Be happy.

I remember, therefore I am.
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