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US soldier goes off and kills 16 civilians Options
offroad
Posted: Monday, March 12, 2012 2:48:47 PM

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I'm not from the US, but I must say... I smell sh*t, and let me the reinforce this idea: it stinks!

This poor soldier must be punished, but it's important to know he is under command. It was not his idea to invade that country and try to restablish order and take many lives (daily) in the process.

Another fact that is well known by all, but once in a while it is nice to repeat, is this: Those people are very revengeful.

jacobusmaximus
Posted: Monday, March 12, 2012 3:47:53 PM

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offroad wrote:
I'm not from the US, but I must say... I smell sh*t, and let me the reinforce this idea: it stinks!

This poor soldier must be punished, but it's important to know he is under command. It was not his idea to invade that country and try to restablish order and take many lives (daily) in the process.

Another fact that is well known by all, but once in a while it is nice to repeat, is this: Those people are very revengeful.


Sure they are very revengeful, and they will understand that they are not alone in that. American combat troops are very revengeful too, but in the main are well disciplined, even when their comrades are blown up by a roadside bomb that somehow the civilians manage to avoid. Occasionally, however, a soldier under a great deal of pressure remembers 9/11 and other atrocities, snaps and goes on the rampage. It happens on both sides. Remember the Afghan policemen who turned their guns on U.S. soldiers killing many. The dead were the children of innocent Americans who probably didn't even want their sons to be in Afghanistan in the first place. Innocent people should never be victims, but wait and see how many innocent children are murdered by the Taliban when NATO has gone from Afghanistan. This kind of thing happens in war. It always will and it will always get worse until one side puts up their guns and says "let's work this out".

I remember, therefore I am.
martyg
Posted: Monday, March 12, 2012 4:57:15 PM
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nuts and lunatics should not get away with crap like this.

we have another one of these miscreants in jail and awaiting trial in the usa. a usa service man (muslim) went on a tear and mercilessly
mowed down a bunch of innocents.

what's taking so long to bring this culprit to justice? and also his cohort in afghanistan?
Tovarish
Posted: Monday, March 12, 2012 8:16:12 PM

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News this morning is of a massacre of civilians, men, women & children, this one was in Syria.

Each side is blaming the other, but they are all Syrians.

Who is going to scream for justice there?
HWNN1961
Posted: Monday, March 12, 2012 8:25:28 PM

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This last cluster of events:

1. A man on the last of his multiple deployments, in a land where the enemy smiles to your face then waits till you turn your back on him to blow you away snaps and kills innocent people.

For which there will surely be violent protests, as though this was somehow official American policy!

2. A so-called "ally" wearing an Afghan Army uniform murders two US officers in cold blood.

For which there was a notable lack of protest from the outraged Afghani citizenry!

3. The stupid buring of the Koran, followed by the horrendous overblown and violent protests by people who seem apt and eager for any excuse to protest anything and everything American.


Enough!!!

It's time to go:

After 10 years there, the Afghan military is still inept. In 10 years a sharp troop can become a senior NCO in the US military, an Officer can grow to command hundres of men as a Major. By now, they should only need advisors. Instead they are at best a joke, and at worst dangerous. Their hearts aren't in it.

A great deal of blood, sweat and tears were expended to win over the Afghani people. They repay us with the kind of vitriolic hatred only a blood enemy should be capable of.


We leave, but with a warning. We are watching. If the Taliban builds new terrorist camps, or allows Al Queda to do so, we return...just long enough to obliterate the threat.

Gone is the false choice that either we go in and Nation build, or else have to watch the terrorists rebuild their network there. We're not falling for that one anymore. Your nation is a heaven or a hell as you desire. But, if you let the thugs train on your soil for attacks on the US or our allies: drones, special forces, and guided bombs off them.



"Be without fear in the face of your enemies. Be brave and upright that God may love thee. Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death. Safeguard the helpless, and do no wrong". (Knight's Oath, Kingdom of Heaven)
Tovarish
Posted: Monday, March 12, 2012 8:34:40 PM

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I dont think they are worth saving.
Tovarish
Posted: Tuesday, March 13, 2012 1:59:35 AM

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My symphany to the people that were killed in Afghanistan, men, women and children.

The terrible events that have happened over the past year, this soldier appears to have snapped with too much war, multiple tours to Iraq and now to Afghanistan.

The Afghan soldiers that has not been brought to trial for killing Australian and allied soldiers.

The lack of understanding of the culture of the country, on one hand, and the lack of gratitude of the people trying to help, on the other.

MTC
Posted: Tuesday, March 13, 2012 3:45:22 AM
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For those who remember the Vietnam War the similarity with the My Lai massacre comes immediately to mind. Details vary, but the theme is the same: Battle-fatigued troops snap and run tragically amok. At this early stage of investigation we don't know all the facts, but what we do know appears damning. Incidents of this type in a war where friend and foe cannot be distinguished are entirely predictable, if still inexcusable. Many questions remain. Did the accused soldier act alone? Did he evidence any signs of snapping before the incident? If so, did he receive psychological treatment? If not, why did his superiors allow him to remain on the front lines with a deadly weapon in his hands?

Bigger issues arise beyond those of this individual case: Should soldiers be allowed or even forced to extend their tours of duty in Afghanistan considering the risk a breakdown poses to themselves and others as this incident plainly illustrates? Policy makers who have decided that for geopolitical reasons it is necessary for American forces to remain in Afghanistan beyond their normal tours of duty will sit safely behind their desks remote and immune from indictment for misfeasance, but a lone soldier will bear the full force and fury of the law if he is judged guilty of war crimes. The American public which elected the policy makers, Democrats and Republicans alike, shares responsibility for this atrocity, an unpleasant fact they will not be eager to accept.

Gone is the rationale of revenge which rightfully brought America to Afghanistan in the first place. Osama Bin Laden is dead. The Taliban who we routed will return as inevitably as the tide on our departure. We cannot prevent this outcome by maintaining an unpopular and corrupt regime. Nor can we expect the Afghans to appreciate our efforts to give them the democracy they never had. They, like the Vietnamese and the Iraquis before them will always view us as an unwelcome occupying force. These are some of the more important lessons of Vietnam which we should have learned, but which we so clearly have not. Just as in Vietnam, in Afghanistan we are building castles in the bloody sand.




Tovarish
Posted: Tuesday, March 13, 2012 5:14:26 AM

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There are more similarities than the My Lai massacre,

The questionable entry into Iraq and Afghanistan wars,

The Training Companies, trying to train the ARVN and Afghans,who were having two bob each way with their loyalty.

Countries that are anti American, Brits, Australian & NZ armies for being there, other than the financial contribution of course.

Countries that will inevitably go back to their historical linkages with other countries.

Oh yes, then there is Syria who wants Western assistance for their civil war, that can not be assisted by the Arab League because they either

don't have the troops, expertise or intent.

Who are more connected with Iran & Veneswaler,..... but come help us and have your soldiers give their lives and their futures for us, and

when we get some semblance of peace we expect you to leave.

Did I mention Governments that couldn't run a Friday Night chook raffle at the local pub without taking bribes?

OK, that's an Aussie woman's dummy spit who has been picking up the remnants of a war for a long, long time.
MTC
Posted: Tuesday, March 13, 2012 4:23:22 PM
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In further support of the possible connection between the soldier's violent "snap" and multiple tours of duty, see http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/multiple-combat-tours-linked-mental-strain-disease-174554188.html. He was on his fourth tour of duty. His legal defense is emerging, if not the policy makers' defense for allowing him to remain.
Geeman
Posted: Tuesday, March 13, 2012 5:23:53 PM

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One of the more unpleasant realities of life is that with war comes war crimes. Any war other than, perhaps, those "weekenders" that occasionally happen and aren't much more than a snatch & grab (Grenada, Panama) is going to end up traumatized soldiers and corrupt officials who rob, cheat, lie and murder.

That's not to say that one should always oppose a war automatically. Sometimes the crimes that go with the combat are actually fewer than those committed by the "enemy" if left alone. However, one of the things people should consider when they support a war is that sooner or later the people who actually participate are going to wind up in situations that most people don't dream of, and some will make the wrong choices. One must weigh the inevitability of war crimes against the crimes committed in the first place by those being opposed as a guiding principle when deciding whether to go to war or not.
HWNN1961
Posted: Tuesday, March 13, 2012 6:40:00 PM

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More information coming to light:

As I was driving home tonight, I heard that the individual got some kind of "dear John" letter from home.

Apparently the wife was leaving him and taking the kids.

So, the guy is already stressed after unending tours in war zones...now he's losing his family?!

Not to excuse the behavior, but, this is a bit much for one person to have to take.

"Be without fear in the face of your enemies. Be brave and upright that God may love thee. Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death. Safeguard the helpless, and do no wrong". (Knight's Oath, Kingdom of Heaven)
HWNN1961
Posted: Tuesday, March 13, 2012 6:42:39 PM

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More information coming to light:

As I was driving home tonight, I heard that the individual got some kind of "dear John" letter from home.

Apparently the wife was leaving him and taking the kids.

So, the guy is already stressed after unending tours in war zones...now he's losing his family?!

Not to excuse the behavior, but, this is a bit much for one person to have to take.

"Be without fear in the face of your enemies. Be brave and upright that God may love thee. Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death. Safeguard the helpless, and do no wrong". (Knight's Oath, Kingdom of Heaven)
HWNN1961
Posted: Tuesday, March 13, 2012 6:47:37 PM

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Further thoughs:

Right now, there are thousands and thousands of "lifers"...people that have made the military their career that have been to the war zones over and over and over again.

The man or woman that signs up for 4 years and does one, maybe two tours of duty in war zones has a risk of PTSD and other problems. But, the psychological damage that is incurred by those that go back time and again is so much worse.

The USA has a ticking bomb on its' hands: eventually these folks will begin to retire from the service. How on earth to do they re-acclimate to civilian life after wartime stress measured in decades, not in years?

One can only hope that the VA sees this coming, that funding for treatment is generous and is timely...

Or scenes like those in Afghanistan may well be coming to a street near you.

"Be without fear in the face of your enemies. Be brave and upright that God may love thee. Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death. Safeguard the helpless, and do no wrong". (Knight's Oath, Kingdom of Heaven)
Tovarish
Posted: Tuesday, March 13, 2012 8:02:59 PM

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How long is the usual tour of duty for Brits & US soldiers?
HWNN1961
Posted: Tuesday, March 13, 2012 9:26:06 PM

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Tov,

For the US it varies by the branch of service and the misson but, in general it can range from 6 months to 13 months. Some Reserve units that I worked with were sending people for shorter tours of 90 days.

A soldier or airman then comes home for training. I'm not sure how long the break between tours has to be.



"Be without fear in the face of your enemies. Be brave and upright that God may love thee. Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death. Safeguard the helpless, and do no wrong". (Knight's Oath, Kingdom of Heaven)
MTC
Posted: Wednesday, March 14, 2012 12:30:45 AM
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Regarding the "ticking time bomb" PTSD problem for American society in general, and the challenge faced by the governmental agency charged with the responsibility of treating traumatized veterans, the Veterans Benefits Administration (formerly the "VA") knows it has a significant problem on its hands and has been responding to the challenge for some time. (Not nearly enough for some.) PTSD claims for Iraq and Afghanistan veterans are multiples of those filed by veterans of previous wars. Still, the veterans with PTSD I have represented are generally satisfied with the medical treatment they have received. In addition to providing treatment at hospitals and clinics, the VBA has among other responses set up hotlines and outreach centers, special treatment for victims of rape (another source of PTSD), and somewhat relaxed the rules governing service connection for PTSD. No amount of treatment, however, will cure some of the more serious cases. It is a condition even mildly traumatized veterans live with for a lifetime. As I see it, confronting the Kafkaesque VBA bureaucracy is the greatest difficulty most veterans will face.
Tovarish
Posted: Wednesday, March 14, 2012 2:02:33 AM

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Research on PTSD that I have read, offered some guide lines.

If a combatant was debriefed with in half an hour of an engagement, it was some what successful, up to a maximum of three times.

Any engagements greater than five there was little or no results.

Post war psych treatment as an outpatient or in a facility, seem to show no improvement what so ever, all the vet is left with is a life time

of medication.

These meds have a good effect during the day time, but the night terrors never stop.

There are many interpretations of 'innocent victims'
MTC
Posted: Wednesday, March 14, 2012 3:55:32 AM
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Here is a link to the VBA website that covers PTSD and available treatment: http://www.ptsd.va.gov/public/pages/treatment-ptsd.asp
Maggie
Posted: Wednesday, March 14, 2012 2:11:20 PM

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HWNN1961 wrote:
Further thoughs:

Right now, there are thousands and thousands of "lifers"...people that have made the military their career that have been to the war zones over and over and over again.

The man or woman that signs up for 4 years and does one, maybe two tours of duty in war zones has a risk of PTSD and other problems. But, the psychological damage that is incurred by those that go back time and again is so much worse.

The USA has a ticking bomb on its' hands: eventually these folks will begin to retire from the service. How on earth to do they re-acclimate to civilian life after wartime stress measured in decades, not in years?

One can only hope that the VA sees this coming, that funding for treatment is generous and is timely...




For once, at least in theory, I agree with you. Angel
I, like you, hope the VA will anticipate and be able to handle this issue. Sadly, the VA is not without its detractors with regard to the quality of health care it offers.
Let's hope - and pray if that is a part of the accepted regimen.

"The nearest thing to eternal life we will ever see on this earth is a government program." - Ronald Reagan
HWNN1961
Posted: Wednesday, March 14, 2012 6:55:57 PM

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Maggie,

If there ever was a subject to agree upon, it's surely this one.

One of my favorite sayings goes like this:

"If you always agree with me, then only one of us is thinking". Not sure who said it, but I've kept it over the years.

The corollary that should go with it is something like this:

"If we never agree, then it's personal". Let's not let it be personal. You and I will doubtless disagree much of the time. That's OK though, you don't learn a thing from someone that always agrees with you.

"Be without fear in the face of your enemies. Be brave and upright that God may love thee. Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death. Safeguard the helpless, and do no wrong". (Knight's Oath, Kingdom of Heaven)
Geeman
Posted: Thursday, March 15, 2012 4:29:36 PM

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A couple of years ago I was talking to a cousin who is a LA Sheriff, and he was telling me about their jail. He was telling "war stories" about his job. It seems there is a special part of the jail for the mentally disturbed inmates because they can't be put in with the regular population, and that "ward" was the source of a lot of his anecdotes. Some of the people there are actually TOO violent to be put with the violent offenders, others would simply be victimized.

"A lot of those guys are Iraqi War soldiers," he said. (This was around the time we were heading BACK to Iraq under Bush 2, so he meant the first Gulf War.)

"Man, that's terrible," I said. "The VA can't do anything to help because they are in jail?" I asked.

"What? No, that's not what I mean. These are IRAQI War veterans. They're from Iraq. They were in the Iraq Army. Republican Guards."

It seems a certain number of guys we bombed the ever-lovin' Hell out of eventually made their way over to America, along with the mental problems that result from surviving that kind of experience. Once here, the predictable thing happens: they snap, commit a crime, are rendered homeless, isolated, etc. and wind up in jail awaiting trial.

If you think about the number of Vietnamese who came over here after we abandoned that country, it starts to make sense. I'm sure a lot of those guys were similarly traumatized, and had comparable issues once they tried to participate in civilian life, plus the issues with being an immigrant in the first place.

So, when it comes to making war, it seems we needn't only think about the fact that our own veterans are going to have problems when they come back. We also have to recognize that we are going to have to deal with the problems of the soldiers on the other side too....
Jeech
Posted: Friday, March 16, 2012 6:25:08 PM

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Nothing new in it except the soldier did it himself, without any official permision. If he's punished then all the democratic institutions should also be punished for all the irrisponsibilities which have been causing death to a million Muslims lives in Iraq and Afghanistan and Pakistan and Libya and on. The blood is sure, on the hands of democratic institutions of the so called revenging Empire.

Nothing new, many, many innocent women and children have been killed with the approval of American presidents since the war is on.

I wonder how such a partisan act vibrates the western media.

*It's wonderful to know that all languages are Greek if not understood.*
Jyrkkä Jätkä
Posted: Friday, March 16, 2012 7:16:34 PM

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So, Jeech,
if a Sunni arsonist sets a Shiite mosque on fire in Bruessels,
that must be Obama's fault, too?
(http://pakobserver.net/detailnews.asp?id=145101)

Do you have any statistics of how many Afghans have been killed by talebans and how many by Americans in last ten years?
Or Pakistanis?
Libya?

Don't just throw things here without any facts behind them.



In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.
Tovarish
Posted: Friday, March 16, 2012 7:40:50 PM

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OH Jeech, if you could open both your eyes we could all have a meaningful conversation.

Who killed the 47 people in Syria with their hands bound, men, women & children, did the evil West do that too?


Yes, GM, when the boat people came to Australia after the Vietnam War.

Many without identification papers, so they were taken on face value that many were ARVN soldiers.

They were given the same benefits as Aussie Vets, including psych counseling.

So many of these Vietnamese immigrants and their children have made meaningful contributions to our way of life.

They also brought in Asian Crime gangs and a massive increase of drug imports.
Truthseeker
Posted: Friday, March 16, 2012 7:46:31 PM

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Jyrkkä Jätkä wrote:

if a Sunni arsonist sets a Shiite mosque on fire in Bruessels,
that must be Obama's fault, too?



No. That would be Bush's fault.
Angel

Everyone thinks of changing the world, but no one thinks of changing himself. Leo Tolstoy
Jeech
Posted: Friday, March 16, 2012 8:35:40 PM

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So, you guys want to mix the war on terror and the rest of stunt/proxy operations in a single chopper?

*It's wonderful to know that all languages are Greek if not understood.*
Jyrkkä Jätkä
Posted: Friday, March 16, 2012 8:40:26 PM

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Jeech wrote:
So, you guys want to mix the war on terror and the rest of stunt/proxy operations in a single chopper?


No, we don't.
We also don't blame the President of United States of a car bomber killing scores in Karachi.


In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.
Jeech
Posted: Friday, March 16, 2012 9:00:07 PM

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Yesterday, Mrs Doubtfire's hen didn't lay any egg due to Obama's fart... Laughs>

You know what you're playing, JJ. Applause

*It's wonderful to know that all languages are Greek if not understood.*
Tovarish
Posted: Friday, March 16, 2012 9:29:20 PM

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There are many things I would like to ask you Jeech, but dont feel I can, because I feel you will take any comment personally.

There are things that happen in Pakistan that i would like a residents opinion, rather than a reporters view point.
HWNN1961
Posted: Friday, March 16, 2012 10:01:51 PM

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More information on the soldier in question:

It seems that the day before he snapped his friend had his leg blown off. Also, according to his counsel, he had been to Iraq 3 times, and injured twice. He (understandably) was less that enthusiastic about going to Afghanistan.

To sum up: friend maimed, wife leaves with the kids, his fourth tour in a war zone.

Once again, I hasten to add that nothing can excuse what he did. But, I mourn for that man, as I mourn for the innocent Afghanis he killed.

"Be without fear in the face of your enemies. Be brave and upright that God may love thee. Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death. Safeguard the helpless, and do no wrong". (Knight's Oath, Kingdom of Heaven)
Tovarish
Posted: Friday, March 16, 2012 11:05:47 PM

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Well he was let down by those above, who couldnt see it coming. Breaking point.

The man that killed all those unarmed people in Fort Hood, seems to have fallen down the same black hole, although he hadnt been in combat?
almostfreebird
Posted: Friday, March 16, 2012 11:09:35 PM

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Tovarish wrote:
There are many things I would like to ask you Jeech, but dont feel I can, because I feel you will take any comment personally.
There are things that happen in Pakistan that i would like a residents opinion, rather than a reporters view point.




You could use twitter.

On the day Osama Bin Laden was killed, I was following Sohaib Athar all day long and talked with some residents in Abbottabad:

Abbottabad, Pakistan



percivalpecksniff
Posted: Saturday, March 17, 2012 4:57:38 AM

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HWNN said: To sum up: friend maimed, wife leaves with the kids, his fourth tour in a war zone.

Once again, I hasten to add that nothing can excuse what he did. But, I mourn for that man, as I mourn for the innocent Afghanis he killed. unquote


I agree with that balanced view.


It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. Aristotle
percivalpecksniff
Posted: Saturday, March 17, 2012 5:16:50 AM

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Jeech. Whether one agrees with the intervention in Afghanistan or not, surely you can see it is not a war against Muslims per se? It is military action against a class of Muslim, who in turn is at war with its own people and wants to demean a section of them, namely women, and impose their will on all.

This element thinks nothing of killing its fellow Muslims in order to impose its will, or of mowing down thousands in the 9/11 massacre.

There is as much hatred between Muslims as you think there is between the West and Muslims. Do you recall the Iraqi/Iran war Jeech? Millions were killed when Muslim fought Muslim. It is the same for Professed Christians in two world wars. It is a known fact that Iranians do not like fellow Muslims in Saudi Arabia.

This is not as simple as The West against Muslims is it. It is far more complex than that. What about all the Muslims and professed Christians around the world living alongside each other in peace?

No one in this thread is supporting the actions of the soldier who killed innocent civilians, and no one is rejoicing in their deaths.

I think your stance is simplistic. There are problems with both sides.


It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. Aristotle
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