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A just fear of an imminent danger, though there be no blow given, is a lawful cause of war. Options
Daemon
Posted: Monday, February 20, 2012 12:00:00 AM
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A just fear of an imminent danger, though there be no blow given, is a lawful cause of war.

Francis Bacon (1561-1626)
MTC
Posted: Monday, February 20, 2012 4:06:38 AM
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Bacon anticipates the "preemptive self-defense " rationale which the Bush and Blair administrations advanced before the invasion of Iraq. Bush and Blair attempted to justify the invasion by claiming Saddam Hussein possessed stockpiles of Weapons of Mass Destruction("WMD") which he was willing to use against his own people and the U.S., but had not as yet. The war was necessary to prevent their (WMD) use, Bush and Blair contended. However, an extensive search for WMD after the Iraq War produced no results. As it became clear there were no stockpiles of WMD in Iraq, it became expedient to shift the rationale for the War. That is another story.

Notice Bacon does not specify who or what is in "imminent danger." Likely he meant the country which initiates the self-defensive war. But this is not necessarily the case. In fact, the War was allegedly also launched to protect the Iraqis from attack by their own leader. It was they, "a third party," who were also in danger, Bush and Blair argued.

The concept that nations have rights to self-defense just like individuals is called "the domestic analogy." Some argue that the analogy breaks down because unlike individuals, nations can continue to make war even after the threat is eliminated. There is no requirement that only "proportional force" be used in war as there is in individual self-defense.

Expect Israel to trot out the "preemptive self-defense" doctrine if it launches a strike against Iran.






jacobusmaximus
Posted: Monday, February 20, 2012 4:17:31 AM

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"...Expect Israel to trot out the "preemptive self-defense" doctrine if it launches a strike against Iran." MTC.

You are pre-judging Israel MTC. By 'trot out' you obviously mean make an excuse. Israel would have a reason - Iran has sworn to wipe Israel off the map. So if Iran coughs, it's dead.

pedro
Posted: Monday, February 20, 2012 4:56:27 AM

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Unfortunately, we know from past experience that even allowing weapons inspectors to determine whether the enrichment programme is for domestic energy would not placate all. (Just as small companies are creating enough competition in the UK to lower energy bills too)

"Millions long for immortality who don't know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon" Suzanne Ertz
seansarto
Posted: Monday, February 20, 2012 6:32:33 AM

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I have come in time to understand that without physically entering Iraq and routing out the networks of fear and obedience a regime like Saddam had established that Iraq would have continued playing cat and mouse with the issue of FOREVER..and thus it would have become an ally to any organization with a similar grudge against the USA....and an imminent danger...by using coy tactics..Like Pakistan does...and to an extent China..It is quite curious to me how noone of the liberal demeanor in the USA or even Europe questions the Gulf War of 1991...What grounds did the US have for greenlighting Iraq's response to Kuwait, only to then rebuke it back then...That seems the heart of the matter....That betrayal created the just cause for the Iraq Invasion.
Christine
Posted: Monday, February 20, 2012 7:36:25 AM

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So you were talking to Bush.

I am carrying my heart~I am carrying my rhythm~I am carrying my prayers~But you can't kill my spirit~It's soaring and strong (Paula Cole's Me Lyrics)***We are not human beings having a spiritual experience. We ARE spirtual beings having a human experience.(T.deChardin)***There are only two ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle. (Albert Einstein)



jcbarros
Posted: Monday, February 20, 2012 12:59:10 PM
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Justa bella quibus necessaria.
floyd
Posted: Monday, February 20, 2012 4:45:48 PM
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Well, Sensarto, lots-of-people spent decades convinced that our cold war with the Soviets would never end without a world war with real weapons of mass destruction. The Soviets were sure to play cat-and-mouse FOREVER. Lots-of-people wanted the US to launch a pre-emptive strike.

Those lots-of-people were dead wrong, weren't they?

Does that give you any pause?

Your friend of the liberal demeanor in the U.S.,

floyd

“When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace.”
Jimbob
Posted: Monday, February 20, 2012 6:10:03 PM

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The Works of Lord Bacon : with an introduction essay Volume 1 : by Francis Bacon
XIX. OF EMPIRE.

It is a miserable state of mind to have few things to desire, and many things to fear: and yet that commonly is the case of kings, who being at the highest, want matter of desire, which makes their minds more languishing: and have many representations of perils and shadows, which make their minds the less clear. And this is one reason also of that effect which the Scripture speaketh of, "that the king's heart is inscrutable." For multitude of jealousies, and lack of some predominant desire, that should marshal and put in order all the rest, maketh any man's heart hard to find or sound. Hence it comes likewise, that princes many times make themselves desires, and set their hearts upon toys; sometimes upon a building; sometimes upon erecting of an order; sometimes upon the advancing of a person; sometimes upon obtaining excellency in some art, or feat of the hand; as Nero for playing on the harp; Domitian for certainty of the hand with the arrow; Commodus for playing at fence; Caracalla for driving chariots; and the like. This seemeth incredible unto those that know not the principle, That the mind of man is more cheered and refreshed by profiting in small things, than by standing at a stay in great. We see also, that kings that have been fortunate conquerors in their first years, it being not possible for them to go forward infinitely, but that they must have some check or arrest in their fortunes, turn in their latter years to be superstitious and melancholy: as did Alexander the Great, Dioclesian, and in our memory Charles the Fifth, and others; for he that is used to go forward, and findeth a stop, falleth out of his own favour, and is not the thing he was.

To speak now of the true temper of empire: it is a thing rare and hard to keep; for both temper and distemper consist of contraries. But it is one thing to mingle contraries, another to interchange them. The answer of Apollonius to Vespasian is full of excellent instruction: Vespasian asked him, what was Nero's overthrow? He answered, Nero could touch and tune the harp well, but in government sometimes he used to wind the pins too high, sometimes to let them down too low. And certain it is, that nothing destroyeth authority so much as the unequal and untimely interchange of power pressed too far, and relaxed too much.

This is true, that the wisdom of all these latter times, in princes' affairs, is rather fine deliveries, and shiftings of dangers and mischief's, when they are near; than solid and grounded courses to keep them aloof. But this is but to try masteries with fortune: and let men beware how they neglect and suffer matter of trouble to be prepared; for no man can forbid the spark, nor tell whence it may come. The difficulties in princes' business are many and great; but the greatest difficulty is often in their own mind. For it is common with princes, saith Tacitus, to will contradictories. "Sunt plerumque regum voluntates vehementes, et inter se contraries." For it is the solecism of power, to think to command the end, and yet not to endure the mean.

Kings have to deal with their neighbours; their wives; their children; their prelates or clergy; their nobles; their second nobles or gentlemen; their merchants, their commons; and their men of war; and from all these arise dangers, if care and circumspection be not used.

First, for their neighbours, there can no general rule be given, the occasions are so variable, save one, which ever holdeth; which is, that princes do keep due sentinel, that none of their neighbours do overgrow so, by increase of territory, by embracing of trade, by approaches, or the like, as they become more able to annoy them, than they were. And this is generally the work of standing counsels, to foresee and to hinder it. During that triumvirate of kings, King Henry the Eighth, of England; Francis the First, king of France; and Charles the Fifth, emperor, there was such a watch kept, that none of the three could win a palm of ground, but the other two would straightways balance it, either by confederation, or if need were by a war: and would not in any wise take up peace at interest. And the like was done by that league, which, Guicciardine saith, was the security of Italy, made between Ferdinando, king of Naples; Lorenzius Medices, and Ludovicus Sforza, potentates, the one of Florence, the other of Milan. Neither is the opinion of some of the schoolmen to be received, that a war cannot justly be made but upon a precedent injury, or provocation. For there is no question but a just fear of an imminent danger, though there be no blow given, is a lawful cause of a war.
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Nero : He is infamously known as the Emperor who "fiddled while Rome burned", although this is now considered an inaccurate rumour.

first, I would have to say Bacon appears to have a very good understanding of history, as he mentions names and events etc...Nero had been of some interest, It somehow seems that one can be popular for various reasons and have popular support. Although does this make him/her a wise/prudent leader when faced with perils amongst other things. Personally I think one requisition for any leader should be at least an IQ test. Something else Bacon mentions is the change over in power and control, you know is there a loss in consistency for ones/groups ideals are not necessarily the others. lastly the big question is do you start a war on the basis of injury/provocation or for fear of such things. I see Bacon says 'Just fear' meaning without doubt I suspect.



circumspect : Heedful of circumstances and potential consequences; prudent.

solecism
1. A nonstandard usage or grammatical construction.
2. A violation of etiquette.
3. An impropriety, mistake, or incongruity.

inscrutable : Difficult to fathom or understand; impenetrable. See Synonyms at mysterious

.
panama
Posted: Monday, February 20, 2012 6:13:05 PM
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Paranoia is no excuse for the so called "pre-emptive self-defense".
floccinaucinihilipilificatinator
Posted: Wednesday, February 22, 2012 6:58:30 AM
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well the point here is certainly "just", if you run around in the streets pointing a gun at everybody, ppl surely have the right to do something about it

curious how ppl point out the iran/israel question, id rather say that by this reasoning half of the world has just cause to attack the united states, also iran doesnt really give any cause for just fear, the fear is constructed by the media and quite absurd, "if attacked iran threatens to.." - who has cause for just fear here? who is threatening who?
jacobusmaximus
Posted: Wednesday, February 22, 2012 6:43:45 PM

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floccinaucinihilipilificatinator wrote:
well the point here is certainly "just", if you run around in the streets pointing a gun at everybody, ppl surely have the right to do something about it

curious how ppl point out the iran/israel question, id rather say that by this reasoning half of the world has just cause to attack the united states, also iran doesnt really give any cause for just fear, the fear is constructed by the media and quite absurd, "if attacked iran threatens to.." - who has cause for just fear here? who is threatening who?


We didn't need the media to make us fear Al Qaeda or Sadaam Hussein who gassed his own people. And the Killing Fields of Cambodia happened without any contribution from the newspapers. Pearl Harbour happened before the Press even got hold of it. What about Rwanda - did no one worry about being murdered before the genocide was reported by the press? Need I go on?
floccinaucinihilipilificatinator
Posted: Saturday, February 25, 2012 11:15:03 AM
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you needed the media to tell you that al qaeda was linked to saddam hussein (which he was not), also that there might be a mushroom cloud in the us any moment while saddam proudly inspected the new sling-shot weaponry

if you say that a state gassing its own people is a lawful cause of war im all with you, but dont pretend that this had been the position of the US at any point, the entire west gladly supported saddam and many other torture, terror and even genocide regimes as long as they were useful
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