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"Number" is plural? Options
LCouperin
Posted: Friday, February 10, 2012 5:43:42 PM

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I understand that the expression "There are a number of...." is correct, while "There is a number of ...." is incorrect. But we don't say "There are a group of people...," but, "There is a group of people...." Why the inconsistency?

It is like the sound of one hand clapping.
rogermue
Posted: Friday, February 10, 2012 5:59:36 PM

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'a number of' as in 'a number of people' is a common variant for 'many'. 'a group of ...' is no variant for 'many'.
Jyrkkä Jätkä
Posted: Friday, February 10, 2012 6:51:50 PM

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There were a number of people on a bus stop. Dancing Anxious Drool Applause Eh? Whistle Dancing

The bus didn't arrive on schedule so they began to wonder, Think d'oh! Not talking Pray Eh? Think Boo hoo! but had still some hope the bus would arrive soon.

After an hour or two there was a group of Brick wall Brick wall Brick wall Brick wall Brick wall Brick wall Brick wall

Whistle


I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.
mailady
Posted: Friday, February 10, 2012 9:14:10 PM

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SO funny,JJ!!!
LCouperin
Posted: Friday, February 10, 2012 11:01:43 PM

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Jyrkkä Jätkä wrote:
There were a number of people on a bus stop. Dancing Anxious Drool Applause Eh? Whistle Dancing

The bus didn't arrive on schedule so they began to wonder, Think d'oh! Not talking Pray Eh? Think Boo hoo! but had still some hope the bus would arrive soon.

After an hour or two there was a group of Brick wall Brick wall Brick wall Brick wall Brick wall Brick wall Brick wall

Whistle


But my point is that "a number" is singular.

It is like the sound of one hand clapping.
Jyrkkä Jätkä
Posted: Friday, February 10, 2012 11:35:58 PM

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The number of birds in my backyard is small.
The equivalent to the number of is the total quantity of.


I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.
RuthP
Posted: Sunday, February 12, 2012 3:17:20 AM
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LCouperin wrote:
I understand that the expression "There are a number of...." is correct, while "There is a number of ...." is incorrect. But we don't say "There are a group of people...," but, "There is a group of people...." Why the inconsistency?

The problem is that you have come to the very confusing topic of collective nouns. You are correct that collective nouns, i.e. a single word which stands for a number of individuals, usually or often take a singular verb. But, it is "usually or often", not "always". The key to the number (singular or plural) of the verb depends upon whether the speaker or writer is thinking of the group taken as a whole or the individuals which compose the group. Two speaker/writers may arrive at different conclusions.

In this case, "a number" is the plural form of the collective noun "the number". Totally bizarre, yes? On the other hand, "group" is a standard collective noun, which will usually take the singular verb form. I find I have the greatest difficulty thinking of a time when I would use a plural verb with "group". It would be grammatically correct to say "the group are in disagreement over proposed changes to the bylaws", but it would not be common, at least in AE. BE speakers have a greater tendency to consider the individuals composing a collective and more frequently use plural verbs with collective nouns.

We have had at least a couple of discussions about this before, and they have some grammar-site links which might provide more insight.
A variety of singular or plural
Collective nouns
plural and singular!
NancyUK
Posted: Sunday, February 12, 2012 11:33:28 AM

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Some words, such as 'number', have so many different meanings and uses that it's difficult to know and understand them all. However, I find it a good starting point to trawl through all the definitions, and see if you can find one that fits the bill/makes sense. In this case, the following seems to pretty much cover it (from TFD):

number n

Usage Note: As a collective noun number may take either a singular or a plural verb. It takes a singular verb when it is preceded by the definite article the: The number of skilled workers is small. It takes a plural verb when preceded by the indefinite article a: A number of the workers are unskilled.

======================================================================================================================

As to why this might be, although not a grammatical or etymological explanation, it seems to me that in the first case it is the number that is the focus of the sentence. The sentence could be simplified to "the number is small" and still make sense. Whereas in the second case, it is the workers who are the focus of the sentence, and the simplified sentence would read "the workers are unskilled". If you said "the workers are small" it would have an entirely different meaning!

======================================================================================================================

I think that the same goes for:

group n

Usage Note: Group as a collective noun can be followed by a singular or plural verb. It takes a singular verb when the persons or things that make up the group are considered collectively: The dance group is ready for rehearsal. Group takes a plural verb when the persons or things that constitute it are considered individually: The group were divided in their sympathies.

======================================================================================================================

So to sum up, it seems that in both cases if it is the collective (number, group) that is the focus, a singular verb is used and if it is the individuals (workers, members of a group) that make up the collective are the focus, the plural verb is used.

Just adding my two penn'orth to RuthP's excellent explanation above.Applause


I would live all my life in nonchalance and insouciance, Were it not for making a living, which is rather a nouciance. Ogden Nash
LCouperin
Posted: Sunday, February 12, 2012 5:11:56 PM

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NancyUK wrote:
Some words, such as 'number', have so many different meanings and uses that it's difficult to know and understand them all. However, I find it a good starting point to trawl through all the definitions, and see if you can find one that fits the bill/makes sense. In this case, the following seems to pretty much cover it (from TFD):

number n

Usage Note: As a collective noun number may take either a singular or a plural verb. It takes a singular verb when it is preceded by the definite article the: The number of skilled workers is small. It takes a plural verb when preceded by the indefinite article a: A number of the workers are unskilled.

======================================================================================================================

As to why this might be, although not a grammatical or etymological explanation, it seems to me that in the first case it is the number that is the focus of the sentence. The sentence could be simplified to "the number is small" and still make sense. Whereas in the second case, it is the workers who are the focus of the sentence, and the simplified sentence would read "the workers are unskilled". If you said "the workers are small" it would have an entirely different meaning!

======================================================================================================================

I think that the same goes for:

group n

Usage Note: Group as a collective noun can be followed by a singular or plural verb. It takes a singular verb when the persons or things that make up the group are considered collectively: The dance group is ready for rehearsal. Group takes a plural verb when the persons or things that constitute it are considered individually: The group were divided in their sympathies.

======================================================================================================================

So to sum up, it seems that in both cases if it is the collective (number, group) that is the focus, a singular verb is used and if it is the individuals (workers, members of a group) that make up the collective are the focus, the plural verb is used.

Just adding my two penn'orth to RuthP's excellent explanation above.Applause


That makes sense.

It is like the sound of one hand clapping.
Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Monday, February 13, 2012 3:32:30 PM

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Hi Nancy!

Your post was great and answers the question perfectly.

Could I request one thing, though? When you separate sections with a line of symbols, could you limit it to just a few symbols (ten or fifteen would be fine).
Your long lines of ============= play hell with the "word wrap", and it affects the whole topic, similar to posting a very wide picture - it doesn't fit on the screen, so I have to keep scrolling to the right to see the end of each line.

Thanks.

Though lovers be lost, love shall not, and Death shall have no dominion. - Dylan Thomas
Jyrkkä Jätkä
Posted: Monday, February 13, 2012 4:30:33 PM

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May I also give a friendly advice, to LCouperin:

if you are answering right after someone's comment there is no need to quote the whole 30-line post,
and then just add a line to say you agree.

Cheers!


I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.
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