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The Milkywayproblem Options
Tompa
Posted: Saturday, January 07, 2012 7:49:23 AM

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Hi. Simple question, but not for me. How on "earth" can you take a photo on our whole galaxy and point out where we are? Who takes the photo?

Sit vis tecum.
thar
Posted: Saturday, January 07, 2012 9:12:08 AM

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basically images of the Milky Way bring together a lot of assumptions. Look up in the night sky and there are stars in all directions, but in one direction there is a strong concentration of stars all quite near, and at similar distances, ie in the same galaxy (we know the distance assuming expansion and redshift).



but we also see lots of other galaxies, collections of other stars at similar larger distances:



because we are outside and far from these other galaxies, we see them at a variety of angles, and can see that galaxies are flat discs with arms. We conclude that we are inside a galaxy, and the concentration of stars we see are towards the centre. Other close stars are in our galaxy, either arcing out in the same arm, or in other arms. But because they are not so concentrated in the night sky the structure away from the centre is not obvious from Earth.

Any images of the Milky Way other than those from Earth are not real, they are constructed from data collected from Earth and telescopes in space, (which given the scale is exactly the same place as Earth).

Any images of the whole of the Milky Way from Earth are compilations of the different views from Earth as it rotates.

From all this, we come up with the idea that we are a standard star in the plane of a spiral galaxy, quite far from the centre. We can place other stars in the disc in a hypothetical view from 'above' because we know how far they are from Earth and in which direction. So we can make the image of our galaxy as we believe it would be seen from the outside, and measure its rotation etc..

But that is just the best theory that fits all the data....any other interpretations are welcome...




if you really want to you can continue up the scale:


but really, is there anything more beautiful and incredible than just seeing the stars of the Milky Way on a dark night?
mailady
Posted: Saturday, January 07, 2012 10:51:21 AM

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Thanks for the easy to understand explanation!
Tompa
Posted: Saturday, January 07, 2012 11:21:50 AM

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Thank you Thar for a beautiful answer!

Sit vis tecum.
thar
Posted: Saturday, January 07, 2012 12:57:33 PM

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Thanks, Tompa, Mailady.

one thing to think on, - even if that picture is right, it is already wrong. Even the close features like the Orion nebular in our arm of the galaxy are over a thousand light years away, and the galaxy is over 100,000 light years across. If we could see stars on the other side of it (we cannot see light through the gas and dust but other wavelenghts can get further) - then the light we see now would have left those stars 100,000 years ago. Nice to wonder what may have changed in that time! Think

we are destined to see the universe as archaeologists!
tootsie
Posted: Saturday, January 07, 2012 3:20:47 PM

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having been away for Xmas & New Year's Eve, and having to deal with a new computer system at work (groan) - I am just catching up with all the threads - amazing info, thank you thar.



I live in my own little world, but it's OK - they know me here...
ellana
Posted: Sunday, January 08, 2012 3:14:14 AM
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that... are you an astronomical grammarian or a grammatical astronomer??
Applause Applause Applause
ellana
Posted: Sunday, January 08, 2012 3:14:49 AM
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very, very sorry THARRR
Marissa La Faye Isolde
Posted: Sunday, January 08, 2012 9:27:32 AM
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To thar:
When I read your posts, and look at all the pictures of the vast, incomprehensible, in-finiteness of the universe... and know that man exists in this minute speck of light we call earth, it seems as incredulous as the swirling beauty of all the worlds flowing together.
MTC
Posted: Sunday, January 08, 2012 8:14:11 PM
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Walt Whitman (1819–1892). Leaves of Grass. 1900.

208. A Noiseless Patient Spider

A NOISELESS, patient spider,
I mark’d, where, on a little promontory, it stood, isolated;
Mark’d how, to explore the vacant, vast surrounding,
It launch’d forth filament, filament, filament, out of itself;
Ever unreeling them—ever tirelessly speeding them.

And you, O my Soul, where you stand,
Surrounded, surrounded, in measureless oceans of space,
Ceaselessly musing, venturing, throwing,—seeking the spheres, to connect them;
Till the bridge you will need, be form’d—till the ductile anchor hold;
Till the gossamer thread you fling, catch somewhere, O my Soul.


Marissa La Faye Isolde
Posted: Sunday, January 08, 2012 9:43:10 PM
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I love the poem MTC:) Thank you.
MTC
Posted: Sunday, January 08, 2012 9:53:03 PM
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You are welcome, Melissa. I thought to put thar's excellent scientific explanation in a broader context.
Marissa La Faye Isolde
Posted: Monday, January 09, 2012 9:11:23 AM
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You both did a marvelous job.
thar
Posted: Monday, January 09, 2012 12:15:19 PM

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can I just add this - I was looking for a good picture before but didn't find one, but this video does the trick!

Ancients called the bright band bit the Milky way, but now we know all the stars visible in the night sky are in our galaxy, which we (confusingly) call the Milky Way (although some spots that appear stars are actually distant galaxies of billions of stars...it is lucky we are near the edge of the galaxy or our view out would be blocked by the gas and dust.. Dancing )

but if it is not too cold, watching the stars turn, and then realising it is actually you who is moving - puts you quite reassuringly in your place in the universe

...what the stars do...

...what the humans do
Marissa La Faye Isolde
Posted: Monday, January 09, 2012 9:41:23 PM
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I love it that the "ancients" named the Milky Way the "Milky Way" ... I think it means the Milky Path.
thar
Posted: Monday, January 16, 2012 9:14:20 AM

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yeah, you can see why all cultures had celestial myths and gods - it is still (or more?) awesomely impressive when you (think) you know what it is.

and, for each of those stars....

Quote:
Planets as common as stars in Milky Way:
Analysis suggests a galaxy riddled with worlds.

When you turn an eye to the evening sky, there’s a good chance that many of the stars above have at least one planet.

Using six years of data from planet-finding surveys, an international team of researchers concludes that, on average, every star in the Milky Way is accompanied by 1.6 planets. That’s at least 100 billion planets, the scientists report January 12 in Nature.

The figure might seem enormous, but it doesn’t shock planet hunters. “I’m not surprised by this result,” says astrophysicist Wesley Traub of the Jet Propulsion Laboratory in Pasadena, Calif., who was not involved in the study. “This sounds reasonable. This sounds good.”

To make their estimate, the scientists used data that had been gathered from 2002 to 2007 by surveys looking for the temporary brightening in a distant star’s light caused by the gravity of a body passing in front of it. If that passing body is a star with planets, the system causes a predictable boost in the distant star’s light, revealing the presence of the closer planet.

Unlike other types of planet searches, this technique, called gravitational microlensing, works well for stars both near to Earth and far away. “If we want go out of our little box and see into the infinite universe, or in the galactic bulge, or far outside the galaxy — are there planets even there? — then microlensing is the way,” says Kailash Sahu, an astronomer and study coauthor from the Space Telescope Science Institute in Baltimore. And microlensing can more easily detect small planets in orbits far from their stars — though the new study considered only planets circling from half the distance of Earth to the sun out to the equivalent of Saturn’s orbit.

Both the eclipse method used by NASA’s Kepler team and radial velocity searches that measure stellar wobbles are more sensitive to planets tucked in close to their hosts. And those methods more easily find larger planets. Microlensing is the best way to estimate planet frequencies for a range of masses, from planets 10 times the mass of Jupiter to those more like Earth, says astronomer and study coauthor Arnaud Cassan of the Astrophysical Institute of Paris.

Some scientists note that the team based its estimate on a small number of planet detections, but say the small sample size was accurately accounted for. “Non-detections are just as important as detections to constrain the planet frequency,” Cassan says.

Along with identifying the galactic abundance of planets, Cassan and his colleagues also predicted the distribution of planets by mass. The team found that smaller planets are much more common than larger ones, a conclusion that matches the data pouring in from other planet searches.

“Low-mass planets are common as dirt,” says Scott Gaudi, an astronomer at Ohio State University in Columbus who is not a part of the study team. “That doesn’t mean that there aren’t stars that have no planets. There probably are. But on average, planets are pretty common.”


from Science News online Jan 16.

HI OUT THERE Dancing
(sorry about reality tv - we have no excuse for our dreadful pollution of space with that rubbish!)
Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Friday, January 20, 2012 10:27:08 PM

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thar wrote:
Quote:
HI OUT THERE
(sorry about reality tv - we have no excuse for our dreadful pollution of space with that rubbish!)


I just hope 'they' don't think 'reality TV' is reality. Or is it, and I am the odd one out? Anxious Pray

Thanks for your posts in this thread, great simple explanations.

Though lovers be lost, love shall not, and Death shall have no dominion. - Dylan Thomas
Rusty
Posted: Saturday, January 21, 2012 4:25:24 AM

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Great answer Thar. Your posts are awesome.

The world makes way for the man who knows where he is going. ~ Ralph Waldo Emerson
Jeech
Posted: Saturday, January 21, 2012 6:39:46 PM

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Thank you thar for answering intesting questions.

Still, I don't want a question that appears in my mind be left unanswerd:

That, we are far from the center of our glaxy. The center is a concentration of billions of burning stars which certainly should produce a hell of light. At least, it's the idea that the picture gives us. The hallow of the center sounds gigantic times larger than our sun. The question is in the night when we are inbetween our sun and the bright center of our glaxy -though quite far than the sun, there should have been no dark. Do the center of our glaxy have not that bright that it apparantly should? Why not, where we happen to assume that it is the concentration of millions of stars? Is our sun some more efficiant than those who are situated in the center?

*It's wonderful to know that all languages are Greek if not understood.*
thar
Posted: Sunday, January 22, 2012 3:24:17 AM

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Good question, Jeech.
I think (!?) it is a combination of distance, our atmosphere, and galactic dust.
There is a lot of gas and dust in the galaxy, which blocks light, and the galactic core is a long way away. Because light shines in all directions, the amount of light in one particular direction (towards us) decreases as the square of distance, and the amount of light penetrating the dust and gas also decreases strongly with distance. The galactic core in particular is densely packed with gas and dust which blocks most of the visible light

also, visible light is only a very small portion of the electromagnetic spectrum, and the galactic core emits very strongly in far infra-red, x-ray, gamma ray and radio waves, which our limited wavelength receptors (eyes!) cannot see.

so from space near Earth, we do not see a lot of light, the stars are just points of light, and the core is a lightish blur, and there are significantly darker patches where there is dense gas and dust:

galactic centre, picture from Spitzer Space Telescope:



So, We do not see light from the other side of the galaxy, because of the choking dust, and density of the core around the supermassive black hole, and the light towards us is blocked by more gas and cold dust. There may be other reasons, more complicated ones, as well!

Now, our atmosphere is a thin layer of gas which is very good at absorbing radiation, including light, so on Earth we receive even less light, so on a dark night we only see a milky blur across the sky, with significant dark patches.

so that is what is normal. The odd one out is the whacking great Sun, which is right on top of us and sending out a blinding light when we face it. It is only 8 light minutes away, the nearest star is 4 light years and the galactic core is around 30,000 light years, (I think).

So, we do not hear the quiet distant birdsong most of the time because we have a really noisy neighbour!

edit - and thanks for the nice comments, it is nice to hear my enthusiasm is shared
Jeech
Posted: Sunday, January 22, 2012 5:15:16 AM

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Thank you again thar for sharing the knowledge. I'm adoring to your anthusiasm for the knowledge you share with such a simple and easy-to-understand way.

The pictures throughout... helped very much to get the idea. :)

*It's wonderful to know that all languages are Greek if not understood.*
thar
Posted: Sunday, January 22, 2012 7:13:09 AM

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pleasure, Jeech.
just to clarify one thing, on reading your original question properly, my answer may suggest the sun is different from other stars. It is not different, it is a normal, middle aged single star, on the small side. The only reason it is so big to us is that is is so incredibly close.

in fact, we could be considered pretty pathetic, even on a local scale:


Quote:
This shows the size of our Sun compared to other stars. Sirius is a brilliant white binary star that is the brightest star in the night sky and is about 8.6 light-years away from the Sun. Pollux is the brightest star in Gemini and is part of a double star system. It is about 33.7 light-years from the Sun. Arcturus is the brightest star of the northern hemisphere in the spring and the fourth brightest star in the Earth's night sky. It is located about 36.7 light-years from the Sun.


or, if you want to feel really inadequate:

Quote:
This shows the size of the Sun compared to some of the largest stars. Aldebaran is a binary star system located around 65.1 light-years from the Sun. Betelgeuse is a red supergiant estimated to be located around 430 +/- 100 light-years from the Sun. Anteres is a supergiant that is the 15th brightest star in the night sky. It is estimated to be about 600 light-years from the Sun.


but there it is - not too big, not too small, just right Dancing
FounDit
Posted: Sunday, January 22, 2012 5:15:36 PM

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@ thar

Fascinating! Beautiful pics! Thanks, thar. Enjoyed it all...Applause

A great many people will think they are thinking when they are merely rearranging their prejudices. ~ William James ~
Jyrkkä Jätkä
Posted: Sunday, January 22, 2012 5:19:38 PM

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Thar, at his best, can sometimes make very complicated matters to look very simple and easy to understand.
Thanks again, thar, of this presentation!


I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.
Jeech
Posted: Sunday, January 22, 2012 11:51:38 PM

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Great!!!
I wonder man is so powerful who sights that huge sphere, even 'huge' sounds a small word. The knowledge grows from Sun to Polox and from Betelgeuse to Antares!

By the way, thar, you didn't tell the name of this star:


Okey, another question, as you mention about 'single star' and 'double star system' what do you mean?

*It's wonderful to know that all languages are Greek if not understood.*
thar
Posted: Monday, January 23, 2012 2:05:40 AM

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Jeech wrote:

Okey, another question, as you mention about 'single star' and 'double star system' what do you mean?


the only slightly unusual thing about our Sun is that it is single - most are in a relationship!

Most stars in our galaxy are binary - that is two stars orbiting around each other. A few are multiple stars with three or more orbiting together.



if they are the same size, this can go on indefinitely, but if one becomes a giant as it gets older, it will pull material away from the other one. This is what happened to Sirius, the bright white star in the picture above, which took on more mass and burned hotter and brighter. You can also get recurrent supernova, x-ray bursters, quasars, all sorts of dramatic stuff. In comparison single stars are usually quite placid.




You can sometimes see the binary stars in action if the angle is right so that one passes in front of the other from our viewpoint. Eg binary pair HT in Cassiopeia, we can see the bright white dwarf star, but it dims when the other star, a red giant, passes between it and Earth. See the star in the middle blinking (this is speeded up and looped but it is recurring):



[there are also things called double stars, but they are when you see two stars close together from Earth - they may be a binary pair or they may be completely unrelated at different distances, just in the same sight line from Earth.)
RuthP
Posted: Monday, January 23, 2012 10:52:38 AM
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If you are fascinated by all this, here's a way to be involved.

The Hubble telescope has hundreds of thousands of images of far-distant galaxies.
Hubble galaxy zoo

Astronomers would like to classify all these into the various galactic types. It turns out humans are far better than computers at doing this, but we are talking about hundreds of thousands of work-hours to do so. So, astronomers have thrown-open the job to the public at large.
How to take part in the galaxy zoo

You go through an on-line training, to teach yourself how to recognize the different classes of objects you may see. Then you get images to classify for real. If you find something you cannot classify, you have contact information for the astronomers involved. There was one woman, I believe she was Dutch, who found something entirely new!
DarkMoon
Posted: Monday, January 23, 2012 5:28:06 PM

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Just to supplement the previous great posts of thar with information I came across recently that astronomers have determined colors of The Milky Way. It appeared that our home galaxy is aptly named, and the colour can has been described as "a very pure white, almost mirroring a fresh spring snowfall." It sounds like a blend of science and poetry!

From the article: "While color is one of the most important properties of galaxies that astronomers study, it has been difficult to make the measurement for the Milky Way, as our solar system is located well within the Galaxy. Because of this, clouds of gas and dust obscure all but the closest regions of the Galaxy from view, preventing researchers from getting the "big picture.

Newman (Pitt professor of physics and astronomy, member of a team of astronomers in Pitt's Kenneth P. Dietrich School of Arts and Sciences, who announced a discovery) described the overall spectrum of light from the Milky Way as being very close to the light seen when looking at spring snow in the early morning, shortly after dawn. Michael Ramsey, Pitt associate professor of geology, notes that new spring snow is the whitest (natural) thing on Earth. Many cultures around the world have given the Milky Way names associated with milk—human vision is not sensitive to colors seen in faint light, so the diffuse glow of the Galaxy at night appears white. That association has proven to be very appropriate, given the Milky Way's true color.

Astronomers divide most galaxies into two broad categories based on their colors– relatively red galaxies that rarely form new stars and blue galaxies where stars are still being born. (The brightest stars are generally blue, but they are very short-lived on cosmic scales and die out quickly.) The new measurements place the Milky Way near the division between the two classes.

This adds to the evidence that although the Milky Way is still producing stars, it is "on it's way out," according to Newman. "A few billion years from now, our Galaxy will be a much more boring place, full of middle-aged stars slowly using up their fuel and dying off, but without any new ones to take their place. It will be less interesting for astronomers in other galaxies to look at, too: The Milky Way's spiral arms will fade into obscurity when there are no more blue stars left."

If someone is interested in looking at the Panorama of The Milky Way, just click on the link enclosed, and you will be able to visit our home galaxy's remotest corners. I hope you will enjoy it!


(source: physorg.com)
thar
Posted: Wednesday, February 01, 2012 8:09:36 AM

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@RuthP

I checked out your links to galaxy zoo - much more fun than just letting researchers nab your PC downtime! I have only gone through the training and am exhausted already - it is hard work! Although I did keep expecting to see alien spaceships approaching that I would have to defend my galaxy against! If I disappear from tfd, then I may have gone to the zoo...
will
Posted: Wednesday, February 01, 2012 11:46:14 AM
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Jeech wrote:
Thank you thar for answering intesting questions.

Still, I don't want a question that appears in my mind be left unanswerd:

That, we are far from the center of our glaxy. The center is a concentration of billions of burning stars which certainly should produce a hell of light. At least, it's the idea that the picture gives us. The hallow of the center sounds gigantic times larger than our sun. The question is in the night when we are inbetween our sun and the bright center of our glaxy -though quite far than the sun, there should have been no dark. Do the center of our glaxy have not that bright that it apparantly should? Why not, where we happen to assume that it is the concentration of millions of stars? Is our sun some more efficiant than those who are situated in the center?


That is indeed a profound question, Jeech. What you are describing is known as Oblers' Paradox.

Although Thar's answer covers elements of a number of explanations, the most pivotal response to the paradox has to do with the expansion in the fabric of space. Among other things this causes the energy of light to be reduced due to redshift -- to a 'non visible' wavelength. If you tune your TV to 'static', a percentage of that noise is this redshifted microwave radiation.

Arguing with a creationist is like playing chess with a pigeon. It'll knock over the pieces, crap on the board, and fly back to it's flock to claim victory.
pedro
Posted: Tuesday, February 07, 2012 8:32:57 AM

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Unless I've blinked and missed something, there is also the matter of a universe with a finite history (ie; a 'beginning')-hence a finite number of stars. There is also the matter of the finite velocity of light. Olbers paradox is based on an infinite non-expanding universe with even star distribution.

"Millions long for immortality who don't know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon" Suzanne Ertz
will
Posted: Wednesday, February 08, 2012 11:33:02 AM
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pedro wrote:
Unless I've blinked and missed something, there is also the matter of a universe with a finite history (ie; a 'beginning')-hence a finite number of stars. There is also the matter of the finite velocity of light. Olbers paradox is based on an infinite non-expanding universe with even star distribution.

Exactly. The fact we don't see the night sky as the paradox suggests we should is another compelling argument in favour of a finite universe – or rather for the standard model with big bang; the universe could theoretically be infinite beyond that event a little under 14 billion years ago.

The importance of expansion is that we don't get redshift without it. Without redshift, regardless of star distribution and C, the radiation would still be enough the 'heat' and light the night sky anyway.

In effect the night (and day) sky is 'lit up' at all points, it's just 'lit' at a wavelength our receivers (our eyes) can't detect.

At least as far as I understand it.

But now reading Jeech's question again, I don't think that was what he / she was asking anyway. Hey ho.

Arguing with a creationist is like playing chess with a pigeon. It'll knock over the pieces, crap on the board, and fly back to it's flock to claim victory.
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