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Jyrkkä Jätkä.
The Germans didn't see it and the Russians didn't see it. Now the North Koreans won't see it. Is it their fault or the government's?
It would have to be the fault of the people, no? It is they who decide to follow or rebel. Most often, however, the fear of reprisal, up to and including death, stops action from being taken even when they know what is happening is wrong. It usually has to reach a point where sufficient, overwhelming disgust is engendered to motivate the people.
Epiphileon.
The effects of propaganda, mass hysteria, and mob psychology, all do rely, or have as part and parcel of the phenomena, deceit of some sort; however, they are all operative at the sociological level, I am more interested in the subtle, and insidious ways we may deceive ourselves. Granted any of the former may utilize what occurs at the individual level; however, my concern is that until we admit to, identify, and learn how to dismantle these mechanisms at the individual level, we cannot hope to have much success against the methods used to deceive whole populations.
Notice that propaganda, mass hysteria and mob psychology all have at their root, the mentality of joining, or being a part of the group, of acceptance into the larger collective mind. At the level of the individual, the desire for acceptance is so strong a person will endure almost anything to be considered a part of his chosen peer group. Witness the rites of manhood of many historical tribes and consider that civilized societies have their own ritual hazing and rules for acceptance.
Propaganda works because a person doesn’t want to be seen as different from his neighbor. Mass hysteria works by triggering the fear response without rational thought, linking the individual to the group. Mob psychology works, again by not wanting to stand out from the crowd. Anyone who tries to stop a mob is likely to become the target of the mob.
Most people do not want to see how powerfully these feeling motivate them. You likely have heard this before as I said as much to Intelfam. He seems to think I am chasing after a Philosopher’s Stone, but it can be seen in any human environment. One only has to be willing to see it. However, because too many people do not like to look into themselves, and are not willing to examine themselves, the mechanisms you refer to will, sad to say, likely never be overcome.
A great many people will think they are thinking when they are merely rearranging their prejudices. ~ William James ~
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Jyrkkä Jätkä wrote:The Germans didn't see it and the Russians didn't see it. Now the North Koreans won't see it. Is it their fault or the government's?
Some Germans did see it. So did some Russians. And some of each lived to tell the tale. I am sure some North Koreans see it but their first priority is to keep themselves and their families alive. They do this by pretending not to see it and living with the hope that one day they will be free to tell the free world about it.
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FounDit wrote:
Notice that propaganda, mass hysteria and mob psychology all have at their root, the mentality of joining, or being a part of the group, of acceptance into the larger collective mind. At the level of the individual, the desire for acceptance is so strong a person will endure almost anything to be considered a part of his chosen peer group. Witness the rites of manhood of many historical tribes and consider that civilized societies have their own ritual hazing and rules for acceptance.
Propaganda works because a person doesn’t want to be seen as different from his neighbor. Mass hysteria works by triggering the fear response without rational thought, linking the individual to the group. Mob psychology works, again by not wanting to stand out from the crowd. Anyone who tries to stop a mob is likely to become the target of the mob.
Most people do not want to see how powerfully these feeling motivate them. You likely have heard this before as I said as much to Intelfam. He seems to think I am chasing after a Philosopher’s Stone, but it can be seen in any human environment. One only has to be willing to see it. However, because too many people do not like to look into themselves, and are not willing to examine themselves, the mechanisms you refer to will, sad to say, likely never be overcome.
Recent events in North Korea have me thinking that there is a bit more than fear and denial going on. It reminds me of Eric Hoffer's observations concerning the role of self esteem and its lack in mass movements. The northern part of the Korean peninsula is what Sun Tzu would describe as "contested ground". For several millennia the native peoples there have been overrun by feudal lords from the south, the Chinese, and the Japanese, all wanting to gain control of its land, its fishing banks, and its ports. What we consider cargo cult politics, they consider to be the affirmation of their own self worth. They think they need a gifted polymath to put the other leaders in their places and assert the excellence of the North Korean people, rather than relying on their own native dignity as they engage in international markets. In this case the lie feels better than the truth.
"Sometimes I sits and thinks, and sometimes I just sits." - Satchel Paige
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Epi, it's really a great journey and I think many, many personal charactaristics help us unfold the machanisms of mind. Layers beneath layers, one by one.
The original question of OP is:
If 'fear' or an internal 'defence' system makes us speak lies with ourselve why that defence system doesn't work to avoide the deception within?
FounDit better answered it but as my humble opinion I would add: Personal Charactoristics.
Greed, prejudice, hate, revemge, injustice etc. help us decieve ourself as much unconciously as we are amune to these charactoristics.
*It's wonderful to know that all languages are Greek if not understood.*
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The Lies of Mind Quote:Cognitive distortions are simply ways that our mind convinces us of something that isn’t really true. Psych Central Quote:Cognitive distortions, no matter how damaging they may be, are unconscious operations of the mind. People do not choose their cognitive distortions. Indeed, most people would disavow the kind of reasoning that is behind their automatic thoughts. We act on them without even being aware of them. The first step to changing them is to recognize that we are using them. John Taggs Palomar Junior Colleges I've actually had this tab sitting open in my browser for over a month, I believe it was motivated as a rebuttal to those who have proposed that the idea of us lying to ourselves is unsupportable. I would like to reiterate at this point as well, that I chose to use "lies", rather than "self deception", specifically for the more offensive connotation. My thinking is that the more personally offensive the notion is, the more likely we are to do something about it. The topic as originally posted, can stand alone, and indeed is of considerable interest to me; however, I did have another reason for bringing it up. That reason was to demonstrate that large, complex, behavioral repertoires can be formed in the mind, without any conscious contribution whatsoever, and that I am convinced that the realization of this is absolutely critical to the development of the minds potential at the individual level, and may even be a critical factor in the survival of the species.
Question authority, before it questions you. How do you know, that you know, what you know?
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I hate to sound like a broken record, but if you look at the 15 types of behavior listed at your link of psych central, you will find that in each one of them is the desire to be accepted, or the fear of the pain of rejection I spoke of earlier.
These two forces can come at a person either from the outside or from within our own minds. In all cases, we believe something about ourselves that is not necessarily true, but we believe it because we think it. Or to put it in reverse, we think it, therefore it must be true (I'm repeating myself, I know).Epiphileon wrote: That reason was to demonstrate that large, complex, behavioral repertoires can be formed in the mind, without any conscious contribution whatsoever, and that I am convinced that the realization of this is absolutely critical to the development of the minds potential at the individual level, and may even be a critical factor in the survival of the species.
If I understand you, you think that by knowing or being aware that we do this is sufficient to alter the individual and the species.
I would suggest that is only half the problem. We also need to know why we do it in the first place (which I just described). Of course, it could be that learning one is also learning the other. No, as I think about it, it seems to me the "why" is most important. In learning why, we could then interrupt new formations before they can be created.
leonAzul wrote:
Recent events in North Korea have me thinking that there is a bit more than fear and denial going on. It reminds me of Eric Hoffer's observations concerning the role of self esteem and its lack in mass movements.
The northern part of the Korean peninsula is what Sun Tzu would describe as "contested ground". For several millennia the native peoples there have been overrun by feudal lords from the south, the Chinese, and the Japanese, all wanting to gain control of its land, its fishing banks, and its ports. What we consider cargo cult politics, they consider to be the affirmation of their own self worth. They think they need a gifted polymath to put the other leaders in their places and assert the excellence of the North Korean people, rather than relying on their own native dignity as they engage in international markets. In this case the lie feels better than the truth.
Notice the idea of the N. Koreans having no self-esteem? This posits the idea that they need a polymath to be their representative in that department. Is this not a case of: They think it, therefore it must be true? Or as leon says, "the lie feels better than the truth."
Why does it feel better if not to avoid the pain of believing that they are of no worth or value? To avoid thinking thusly, they project their self-esteem onto their leader, or rather allow his self-esteem to become theirs.
A great many people will think they are thinking when they are merely rearranging their prejudices. ~ William James ~
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FounDit wrote:leonAzul wrote:
Recent events in North Korea have me thinking that there is a bit more than fear and denial going on. It reminds me of Eric Hoffer's observations concerning the role of self esteem and its lack in mass movements.
The northern part of the Korean peninsula is what Sun Tzu would describe as "contested ground". For several millennia the native peoples there have been overrun by feudal lords from the south, the Chinese, and the Japanese, all wanting to gain control of its land, its fishing banks, and its ports. What we consider cargo cult politics, they consider to be the affirmation of their own self worth. They think they need a gifted polymath to put the other leaders in their places and assert the excellence of the North Korean people, rather than relying on their own native dignity as they engage in international markets. In this case the lie feels better than the truth.
Notice the idea of the N. Koreans having no self-esteem? This posits the idea that they need a polymath to be their representative in that department. Is this not a case of: They think it, therefore it must be true? Or as leon says, "the lie feels better than the truth."
Why does it feel better if not to avoid the pain of believing that they are of no worth or value? To avoid thinking thusly, they project their self-esteem onto their leader, or rather allow his self-esteem to become theirs.
Addressing this would be mixing sociology into the issue, and would make any hope of defining, and answering the original proposition far to complex. I have to run some errands at the moment so will get back to the first half of your post later. I forgot to include one characteristic of these mechanisms in my above post, and remember the issue I've brought to the fore at this point is the formation of "large, complex, [self modifying, i.e. intelligent] behavioral repertoires can be formed in the mind, without any conscious contribution whatsoever..." . FounDit wrote:If I understand you, you think that by knowing or being aware that we do this is sufficient to alter the individual and the species. No far from it, but it is a necessary condition to the formation of any successful strategies to deal with the issue.
Question authority, before it questions you. How do you know, that you know, what you know?
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It seems to me we are saying the same thing.
Epiphileon's OP: So I am fairly well convinced that we all lie to ourselves, to what extent, in what circumstances, and whether we're on the lookout for this, I think, has a major influence on our psychological integrity, well being, and the degree to which we live mindfully.
ETA:
FounDit wrote:
If I understand you, you think that by knowing or being aware that we do this (creating "large, complex, [self modifying, i.e. intelligent] behavioral repertoires (that) can be formed in the mind, without any conscious contribution whatsoever..."), (that this) is sufficient to alter the individual and the species.
Epiphileon wrote:
No far from it, but it is a necessary condition to the formation of any successful strategies to deal with the issue.
I'm saying that knowledge of this behavior permits us to alter that behavior (the creation of the repertoires) in the individual and, ultimately the whole.
You seem to be saying it is a necessary condition that permits creation of strategies to deal with the same behavior (by altering it) at the individual level, and ultimately the whole.
Are we not saying the same thing?
ETA: The N. Korean point was made simply to illustrate that what happens on an individual level magnifies upwards. A little leaven...etc.
A great many people will think they are thinking when they are merely rearranging their prejudices. ~ William James ~
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FounDit wrote:ETA:
FounDit wrote:
If I understand you, you think that by knowing or being aware that we do this (creating "large, complex, [self modifying, i.e. intelligent] behavioral repertoires (that) can be formed in the mind, without any conscious contribution whatsoever..."), (that this) is sufficient to alter the individual and the species.
Epiphileon wrote:
No far from it, but it is a necessary condition to the formation of any successful strategies to deal with the issue.
I'm saying that knowledge of this behavior permits us to alter that behavior (the creation of the repertoires) in the individual and, ultimately the whole.
You seem to be saying it is a necessary condition that permits creation of strategies to deal with the same behavior (by altering it) at the individual level, and ultimately the whole.
Are we not saying the same thing?
Perhaps we are, I am just having difficulty thinking that you accept the above proposition, it seems to be inconsistent with your arguments elsewhere.
Also to clarify, I am saying that the recognition of the existence and nature of "the lies of mind", is a necessary condition to allow us to begin to formulate successful strategies to counter them, mere recognition will not allow us to effect them in any meaningful way, the methods by which we may consciously effect that which has been unconscious, evolutionarily established, repertoires of behavior, have only recently begun to be developed, and I don't think they are even specifically being addressed from that point of view. I am not current, unfortunately, with what is happening in the area of cognitive behavioral therapy but, that is the area in which the first inroads are being established.
I'm saying that knowledge of this behavior permits us to alter that behavior (the creation of the repertoires) in the individual
To further clarify my meaning, any assumption that we would know how to do this, on the basis of merely recognizing the problem, would almost certainly, I feel, result in the type of "nice idea" approaches, psychology is rife with.
ETA: The N. Korean point was made simply to illustrate that what happens on an individual level magnifies upwards. A little leaven...etc.
You will find that this analogy fails when applied to how change in an individual can effect change at the societal level, there is a dynamic at play there that is orders of magnitude more complex, and possessed of some very different selective pressures that apply to the individual. This is definitely a topic for another thread, I'm saying that because I have a feeling you will find what I am about to say strikes a very resonant chord with you.
It is most likely that an individual that exhibits conscious changes to evolved mentality will be met with various degrees of resistance including outright animosity within the social structure. This is however, a separate issue.
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Amazing, that we speak the same language yet so often do not understand one another.
I see (obviously) no inconsistency in my thinking on this topic. I have no problem with believing people engage in one or more of the 15 common cognitive distortions listed on the link you provided. I have, on more than one occasion, suggested a fundamental reason for those distortions.
(Have I, in your mind, assumed the mantle of a 'nattering nabob of negativity?')
Furthermore, I believe if we become aware of them and understand why we do them, we can alter our behavior. This is, in effect, what CBT does, isn't it?
On the point of N. Korea, I didn't make myself clear. It isn't a significant point, just that I meant it in the opposite way --- that cognitive distortions amplify upwards into the whole, rather than change, which as you suggest, would be met with resistance.
A great many people will think they are thinking when they are merely rearranging their prejudices. ~ William James ~
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Jeech wrote:
If 'fear' or an internal 'defence' system makes us speak lies with ourselve why that defence system doesn't work to avoide the deception within?
The very same processes that facilitate the ability to predict the consequences of hypothetical actions and discover shortcuts between events and consequences can also become so "stuck on stupid" that they refuse to relinquish those patterns, even when confronted by better evidence. As a practical matter, the ability to consider cause and effect abstractly and independently from the literal present is eminently useful, rather convenient, curiously addictive, and frightfully catastrophic when either the premises or the logic are not well-founded empirically. This is the impetus for the ongoing development of scientific method: a frank acknowledgment of the limits of human perception and reason when they are divorced from meticulous observation of empirical events and rigorous application of logic. Otherwise, it's all just an ode on a Grecian urn.
"Sometimes I sits and thinks, and sometimes I just sits." - Satchel Paige
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Epiphileon wrote:FounDit wrote:leonAzul wrote:
Recent events in North Korea have me thinking that there is a bit more than fear and denial going on. It reminds me of Eric Hoffer's observations concerning the role of self esteem and its lack in mass movements.
The northern part of the Korean peninsula is what Sun Tzu would describe as "contested ground". For several millennia the native peoples there have been overrun by feudal lords from the south, the Chinese, and the Japanese, all wanting to gain control of its land, its fishing banks, and its ports. What we consider cargo cult politics, they consider to be the affirmation of their own self worth. They think they need a gifted polymath to put the other leaders in their places and assert the excellence of the North Korean people, rather than relying on their own native dignity as they engage in international markets. In this case the lie feels better than the truth.
Notice the idea of the N. Koreans having no self-esteem? This posits the idea that they need a polymath to be their representative in that department. Is this not a case of: They think it, therefore it must be true? Or as leon says, "the lie feels better than the truth."
Why does it feel better if not to avoid the pain of believing that they are of no worth or value? To avoid thinking thusly, they project their self-esteem onto their leader, or rather allow his self-esteem to become theirs. Addressing this would be mixing sociology into the issue, and would make any hope of defining, and answering the original proposition far to complex. I respectfully disagree. Despite the lack of maturity in the methodologies of sociology, it is precisely the right tool for the job when considering the study of a society. In my opinion it would over-simplify the OP's question to exclude social dynamics from the discussion. It would create a false dichotomy to force a choice between "nature" and "nurture" in this discussion when there is ample evidence that both genetic predisposition and environmental events play essential roles in the influence of human behavior, and society is a significant environmental factor. @FounDit Allow me to clarify. I see that I was much too terse there. I did not intend to imply that the entire population of North Korea were hopelessly devoid of self esteem. Rather I meant to suggest that in North Korea, similar to many historical monarchies, there is a tendency to seek enhancement of the individual's self esteem by association with a worthy exemplar.
"Sometimes I sits and thinks, and sometimes I just sits." - Satchel Paige
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leonAzul wrote:Epiphileon wrote:
Addressing this would be mixing sociology into the issue, and would make any hope of defining, and answering the original proposition far to complex.
I respectfully disagree. Despite the lack of maturity in the methodologies of sociology, it is precisely the right tool for the job when considering the study of a society. In my opinion it would over-simplify the OP's question to exclude social dynamics from the discussion. It would create a false dichotomy to force a choice between "nature" and "nurture" in this discussion when there is ample evidence that both genetic predisposition and environmental events play essential roles in the influence of human behavior, and society is a significant environmental factor. Yes this is all very true, if you are looking at the issue from that level of observation; however, my immediate concern is with the individual coming to acknowledge this type of self deceit, and developing methods by which an individual mind can be trained to discover and consciously adjust any type of "autorun" routines that are in any way maladaptive.
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leonAzul wrote:
@FounDit
Allow me to clarify. I see that I was much too terse there. I did not intend to imply that the entire population of North Korea were hopelessly devoid of self esteem. Rather I meant to suggest that in North Korea, similar to many historical monarchies, there is a tendency to seek enhancement of the individual's self esteem by association with a worthy exemplar.
I think we are saying the same thing. This tendency to seek enhancement of the individual's self-esteem by association is something that is evident in everyday situations.
From political parties to sports teams to popular entertainment figures, individuals seek the pleasure of feeling connected by becoming a member or fan or one or another of these. Also, when the group or individual that one has attached himself to suffers, the individual suffers also because of this identification.
Again, this goes back to my point that individuals need to feel attached, need to belong, to be accepted by the peer (group) they have chosen. This is, in my opinion, not only because of damaged self-esteem, which cannot be avoided as one grows up, but also because of the innate need for bonding which we share with other mammalian species.
This need, I propose, is what lies at the root of the defense mechanisms and cognitive distortions (lies of the mind), some of which are listed on the website Epi provided.
These patterns are created either out of a desire for fulfillment of that need, or created to avoid the pain caused by that lack.
A great many people will think they are thinking when they are merely rearranging their prejudices. ~ William James ~
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