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almostfreebird
Posted: Monday, October 17, 2011 3:36:23 PM

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Peaceward wrote:
almostfreebird, are you okay? English, please















RuthP
Posted: Monday, October 17, 2011 3:43:38 PM

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OFF TOPIC
percivalpecksniff wrote:
Personally I never follow political correctness and I do not speak or write in gender neutral language nor ever will I. We all know that man is a word for both sexes and that should suffice. Let's not have any rabid feminism here please.

Of course a woman is equal to a man, but thankfully different, and has always been so even if not perceived as such by many. Actions, not slavish attention to mere words, are what define the sexes respect for each other.

Men and women complement each other. Using gender neutral language is tiresome and of no consequence. I for one will continue to use man to signify both sexes, and I have four sisters and you know my mum was a women. I for one do not need lessons on treating women with the respect and dignity they deserve as equals, my sisters would soon have put me right if that were the case.

Attacking a poster for the use of the word man to signify us all is inexcusable.

RubyMoon wrote:
I agree, perci... I always used "man" and "you guys" in class -- it would have been too much of a distraction for the biochem and calc students had I switched off & on with she/woman/he/man, etc. However, I explained this to each new class at the beginning of each semester -- it was easily understood, accepted and never questioned.

Certainly, the proper usage of these gender-terms has a "place" and "time" in society, etc.

"rabid feminism"... that's funny... I like the image... although I really don't notice any (rabid feminists) on this forum.

I guess I must be a "rabid feminist". I really do not care if some others choose to continue the outdated use of "he/him/his" to stand for all humans, but it is outdated and it is not harmless. I don't care (too much), because this is hold-out terminology. It has been passed-by by most of the current generation and essentially all of the future generation.

Percival is old enough, and I know I am, to remember (vividly) the round of feminism in the late 1960s, but mostly in the 1970s, which brought about the use of gender-neutral language. RubyMoon, I am unsure whether you are old enough to remember this or not.

The most striking thing about the transformation in language (one still in the process of taking place) was/is, surprisingly, not the struggle to find gender-neutral terms. There are a few situations where it is still awkward, usually involving possessives. Most sentences, however, are extremely easy to say in gender-neutral terms.

Gender-neutral construction has never been wrong. It has never been that difficult. It is simply that for a very long time it didn't make sense, because women weren't real, adult, people. Women were quasi-children, possessions first of their fathers and then of their husbands. "Everyone" (male) "knew" women couldn't own property/run a business/make legal decisions.

Women, it was "known" had weak minds, which would become fevered with too much (or any) reading or intellectual exercise. Women, it was "understood" were delicate flowers, who would be destroyed by physical labor.

(It is fascinating to me how the latter must have applied only to the upper classes. I doubt there are many men or women, today, whose occupations afford them the same physical stress and effort of any female domestic, farm wife, or field hand in the pre-electric, pre-combustion-engine days; which classes encompassed most of the population.)

The lack of women-as-people (i.e. gender-neutral language) had its roots in a world which didn't consider women "real people".

The most striking thing about the change was the jarring sensation when you heard the gender-neutral language. (Thought I'd forgotten, didn't you.)

That sensation is important and it tells you why gender-neutral language is important.
Chairwoman ....... Chair
Policewoman ...... Police officer
Firewoman ........ Firefighter
Congresswoman .... Representative
Mail woman ....... Mail carrier

Many of the initial stabs at gender equality involved clearly differentiating the woman who held the position as a woman (first terms). This has, in most cases, settled down to a true gender-neutral term, which represents both men and women.

The jarring note caused by the use of these terms is the reason they are important: The terms were/are jarring, because they cause the listener to picture women as well as men (or instead-of with the earlier terms). The fact that this is noticeable is evidence that women weren't really included in those male-only referents.

Not convinced? QUICK:
Waiter
Waitress
Server

I'll lay you money:
Waiter: Black suit, white shirt, white or black tie; serving from the left; removing from the right. High class dining; dignity.
Waitress: "Flo" in her bib-front uniform, popping gum and dealing 'em off the arm. Diner; inadequate income, pink-collar.
Server: Probably depends upon where you last ate: your local coffee shop, or the men and women in black suits white shirts and ties who served at the last charity dinner you attended.

It does make a difference. And, as one of the sex which was left out and as one who is not now, never was in the past and never will be in the future male, I will take it very badly if I am, in person, referred-to as male simply because I am a part of a group. I shall gladly be labeled either the chairwoman or the chair of a committee; I will not tolerate being the chairman. And, if you will call him the chairman, then you will call me the chairwoman. Truely gender-neutral language is only appropriate when it is gender neutral: it applies to all.

For all those for whom neutrality is too complex: If you are female, then your "neutral" single-sex terminology for the world should be female. It should be "women" and "hers"; those can include men as well. And, if men cannot be subsumed in humanity, as represented by "women" and "hers" and "she", well, then, it's pretty unreasonable to subsume women in "men" and "his" and "he".
NancyLee
Posted: Monday, October 17, 2011 3:55:19 PM

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RuthP

Your post was a very clear and succinct essay and I really appreciate this post.

Women throughout most of history, have been considered more as property than as people. Changing this is changing the world. The change may never be total and I am sure it won't be quick, but such a change is a worthwhile endeavor.

Learning is its own reward, and it's fun too!
Peaceward
Posted: Monday, October 17, 2011 4:12:16 PM
Rank: Newbie

Joined: 10/14/2011
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Location: Russian Federation
Dear women, sincerely ask your pardon that typed the word without careful consideration about possible reaction onto a single word which definitely stands for both sexes.

What goes around, comes around.
Epiphileon
Posted: Monday, October 17, 2011 4:13:01 PM

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percivalpecksniff wrote:


Epi said: Just to be clear, are we to understand that you are dismissing over 50 years of exhaustive studies, and literally hundreds of thousands of studies, concerning the quantifying of individual differences in personality and intelligence, and that the entire field of psychometrics is a sham?

My reply: You do slavishly depend on those you call experts... wasn't Jaynes supposed to be one?
No Peter that is quite incorrect, and a complete misrepresentation of my views. "experts" is your term, not mine, in fact I'd consider the notion of a scientific expert, truly an oxymoron..
I stand by every syllable. My point is quite clear.
Now it is, amazing as it may be, it is quite clear.
.


Question authority. How do you know, that you know, what you know?
percivalpecksniff
Posted: Monday, October 17, 2011 5:13:38 PM

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I understand where you are coming from RuthP and of course you have a right to your view as I have mine, but I fundamentally disagree with you. Mankind and man are fine terminologies to denote all humans.... we all understand what they mean and there use does not denote chauvinism at all.

What is much more important is for the sexes to treat each other properly and not give lip service. In my book there is no room for chauvinists, misogyny or misandry.


The feminist movement has long been discredited and abandoned by forward looking women, who are confident in themselves, and was full of misandrists.

Perhaps you would like to move the goal posts further? After all we have wo-man and wo-men... does that offend you too? What about the expression manhole? We know what it means. Spotted Dick is now Spotted Richard... brainstorming = thought showers ... policeman or police person? Blackboard now pen board and it goes on and on ... it is all so daft and shallow.

Over-sensitivity to such use of Mankind and man to denote all, reveals in my view a lack of personal worth or insecurity.


It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. Aristotle
percivalpecksniff
Posted: Monday, October 17, 2011 5:25:36 PM

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Actually it was you, Epi, who misrepresented me.

Epi said: Just to be clear, are we to understand that you are dismissing over 50 years of exhaustive studies, and literally hundreds of thousands of studies, concerning the quantifying of individual differences in personality and intelligence, and that the entire field of psychometrics is a sham?

I am not aware that I said there were no differences in personality since that is an obvious given. What I said was that there cannot be a link established between the polarities of introvert and extrovert to intelligence, especially since there are varying degrees of both extremes and much in between. I cannot envisage how it could be done with any certainty. I repeat Extrovert and introvert are matters dealing with personality not intelligence.



I once again stand by what I said.


It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. Aristotle
RubyMoon
Posted: Monday, October 17, 2011 9:04:09 PM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 6/30/2009
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Location: United States



I respect and understand all your feelings, all your opinions.

_______________________AKA RubyMoon, Professor Emerita, Department of Natural Sciences and Mathematics & former Chairman of The Department of Natural Sciences______________________College, New England, USA.

Cheers!
percivalpecksniff
Posted: Tuesday, October 18, 2011 5:44:26 AM

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Nice post Ruby. I come over a bit strong some times, but that is a failing of mine.... at heart I am really a big softie... well my children say so. I agree with your sentiments

It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. Aristotle
Peaceward
Posted: Tuesday, October 18, 2011 6:06:32 AM
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Location: Russian Federation
I think this topic uncovered and showed for each of us particularly where is located that true person everything understanding, but who is that person an introvert or an extrovert?

What goes around, comes around.
percivalpecksniff
Posted: Tuesday, October 18, 2011 6:21:56 AM

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It is hard to understand what you really want to know Peaceward. Why not just look up a good dictionary or are you asking more? Are you asking posters which category they fall into or, what makes one an introvert or extrovert?

It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. Aristotle
Peaceward
Posted: Tuesday, October 18, 2011 6:55:58 AM
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Joined: 10/14/2011
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Actually I want to know whom you consider your self, I can only see your posts and wonder who is author of these lines and who are other participants of this topic then I could conclude my investigation is over. Thanks
In respect of an introvert or an extrovert

What goes around, comes around.
intelfam
Posted: Tuesday, October 18, 2011 7:23:23 AM

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Peaceward wrote:
Actually I want to know whom you consider your self, I can only see your posts and wonder who is author of these lines and who are other participants of this topic then I could conclude my investigation is over. Thanks
In respect of an introvert or an extrovert


I think sometimes Peaceward, it is not always clear what your are asking. You seem to have a very good english vocabulary but your senstences are not always clear. I hope you do not mind (as this is a forum for english learners, mainly) if I try to re-write what I think you are saying (only in the spirit of trying to help - not to criticise nastily)

"Actually, I want to know which of the words [introvert of extrovert] you consider yourself to be? I can only see (read?) your posts, and I wonder whether the authors of these lines are introvert or not. I also wonder the same about other participants in this topic. [When I know] I could then say my investigation is over, in respect of whether they are introvert or extrovert. "

Some of my suggested sentences are not as clear as they might be, because I have tried to leave your wording unchanged, as much as possible. Hope you don't mind my offering these alternatives, so that they sound more natural to a native [BE] speaker.

Oh, as far as my being introvert or extrovert. I took a Cattell 16PF Personality test in 1980, which told me I was extrovert (on a scale introvert to extrovert of 0-10, I scored 10) I took an Eysenck personality Inventory in 1995 on which I scored 7 on a similar scale. I took a Myers-Briggs test in 2002 which said I was an introvert. Peoples personalities change both over time, and in different situations.

"The voice of the majority is no proof of justice." - Schiller
Peaceward
Posted: Tuesday, October 18, 2011 11:16:10 AM
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Joined: 10/14/2011
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Location: Russian Federation
Thank you very much Applause , intelfam, I'm only glad to get a lesson Angel I very appreciate your efforts. It's true, to compose a correct sentence is a problem for me so far, but I try and try so as I think the best method of all is to go down to business at once Angel don't know maybe you could make me a hint please what I should do mainly to have learned to compose correct sentences? After your correction I can see now how many shortcomings I have to smooth. Thanks

And where can I take such test, intelfam?

What goes around, comes around.
percivalpecksniff
Posted: Tuesday, October 18, 2011 11:43:35 AM

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Peaceward, it would hard to define whether a person is either extrovert or introvert from their writings.

Being unseen does all sorts to the personality of individuals. You would have to interact with them in person for a time.

Regarding self-analysis, well is that reliable?

As to taking a test you would do better to ask your friends than rely on some cooked up, controlled and subjective test. Ask some of your good friends.


It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. Aristotle
Epiphileon
Posted: Tuesday, October 18, 2011 1:24:52 PM

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Joined: 3/22/2009
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percivalpecksniff wrote:
Actually it was you, Epi, who misrepresented me.

Epi said: Just to be clear, are we to understand that you are dismissing over 50 years of exhaustive studies, and literally hundreds of thousands of studies, concerning the quantifying of individual differences in personality and intelligence, and that the entire field of psychometrics is a sham?

I am not aware that I said there were no differences in personality since that is an obvious given. What I said was that there cannot be a link established between the polarities of introvert and extrovert to intelligence, especially since there are varying degrees of both extremes and much in between. I cannot envisage how it could be done with any certainty. I repeat Extrovert and introvert are matters dealing with personality not intelligence.
I once again stand by what I said.


Yes of course Peter, but even if it were true that I did, it is only because I fell for one of your verbal gambits I now remember you being so fond of. Consider the following post which precedes the above riposte.


percivalpecksniff wrote:
Introvert and extrovert are to do with personalties and not learning ability. One could posit that the extrovert is more questioning and therefore uses his enquiring mind, whereas the introvert is timid or the more settled and studious... but it is impossible to quantify it.
Be ever so wary of 'experts' who claim otherwise.

I replied with this query... Just to be clear, are we to understand that you are dismissing over 50 years of exhaustive studies, and literally hundreds of thousands of studies, concerning the quantifying of individual differences in personality and intelligence, and that the entire field of psychometrics is a sham?

To which you replies thusly;
You do slavishly depend on those you call experts... wasn't Jaynes supposed to be one? I stand by every syllable. My point is quite clear. Being an introvert or an extrovert is a matter of personality... not intelligence nor learning ability. Intelligence itself is hard to quantify as you should know. Of course if you so wish you may take issue.

So you begin your reply with an insult, and overall appear to be tacitly agreeing with what I said, very nice verbal fencing skills Peter, but not what I would call an attempt at authentic communication.
Regardless you are still wrong, it is impossible for personality to have no effect on learning. I very clearly stated in my first post to this thread that intelligence (cognitive abilities) and personality are definitely separate phenomenon of the mind/brain; however, I went on to say that there is clear evidence that personality, particularly introversion/extroversion, do play a significant role in learning styles, i.e. they effect learning ability due to the prejudice they affect on how well differential presentations will be absorbed. This is not avoidable in a triune mentality, emotional states also can have an effect on learning. My response more thoroughly addresses the original query.
I naively followed you down this fencing path under your Peter Hewitt nom de plume, I'll not do it again.
Fare well Peter.



Question authority. How do you know, that you know, what you know?
percivalpecksniff
Posted: Tuesday, October 18, 2011 1:47:21 PM

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You lumped my words together. 'Beware of experts who claim otherwise' was referring to those who claim a connection of extrovert and introvert personalities to levels of intelligence.

Also I did not say that personality could not have an effect on learning since it patently can. If one is troublesd or overly exitable for example that could well effect concentration levels. I was not referring to personality per se, but the two extremes mentioned. You draw too much from what I said.

Ah that rogue and charlatan Peter Hewett... I well remember him. Adieu my friend... keep well. I will return my trusty sword to its scabbard ere I get tempted to sweep the rug from under you yet again. (I do so love a mixing of metaphors.)

No ill will from this end. Enjoy your Jaynes discussion.



It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. Aristotle
Peaceward
Posted: Tuesday, October 18, 2011 2:12:08 PM
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percivalpecksniff wrote:
Peaceward, it would hard to define whether a person is either extrovert or introvert from their writings.

Being unseen does all sorts to the personality of individuals. You would have to interact with them in person for a time.

Regarding self-analysis, well is that reliable?

As to taking a test you would do better to ask your friends than rely on some cooked up, controlled and subjective test. Ask some of your good friends.


Thanks, percivalpecksniff

You're right that it is seen better from aside the external than the internal, if I am an extrovert then they could define it, anyway I will have known

What goes around, comes around.
pedro
Posted: Wednesday, October 19, 2011 9:06:33 AM

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Joined: 5/21/2009
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Peaceward wrote:
Actually I want to know whom you consider your self, I can only see your posts and wonder who is author of these lines and who are other participants of this topic then I could conclude my investigation is over. Thanks
In respect of an introvert or an extrovert


I am too much of an introvert to own up to it but too much of an extrovert to resist posting.

Incidentally, I find almostfreebird's minimalist posts very Zen

All good ideas arrive by chance- Max Ernst
almostfreebird
Posted: Wednesday, October 19, 2011 9:58:47 AM

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Location: Japan
pedro wrote:

Incidentally, I find almostfreebird's minimalist posts very Zen





It occurred unexpectedly.
The server at the Imagecave(free image hosting) has crashed.
Someday those pictures will reappear.




jmacann
Posted: Monday, November 7, 2011 8:00:58 PM
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Are they like the three-dimensional monochrome ink -sumi- landscape painting?
almo 1
Posted: Monday, April 24, 2017 9:29:46 AM
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Joined: 10/16/2016
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Location: Fussa, Tokyo, Japan
percivalpecksniff wrote:
Personally I never follow political correctness and I do not speak or write in gender neutral language nor ever will I. We all know that man is a word for both sexes and that should suffice. Let's not have any rabid feminism here please.

Of course a woman is equal to a man, but thankfully different, and has always been so even if not perceived as such by many. Actions, not slavish attention to mere words, are what define the sexes respect for each other.

Men and women complement each other. Using gender neutral language is tiresome and of no consequence. I for one will continue to use man to signify both sexes, and I have four sisters and you know my mum was a women. I for one do not need lessons on treating women with the respect and dignity they deserve as equals, my sisters would soon have put me right if that were the case.

Attacking a poster for the use of the word man to signify us all is inexcusable.
















TheParser
Posted: Monday, April 24, 2017 6:50:53 PM
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Joined: 9/21/2012
Posts: 4,669
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percivalpecksniff wrote:
Using gender neutral language is tiresome and of no consequence. I for one will continue to use man to signify both sexes, and I have four sisters ....






Congratulations on your courage.

Most of us do not have your guts.




With admiration and awe, I wish you (and your sensible sisters) a nice day!
Lotje1000
Posted: Tuesday, April 25, 2017 3:24:01 AM

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Joined: 11/3/2014
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Neurons: 446,033
Location: Gent, Flanders, Belgium
It's interesting how courage in this case means "doing what you have been doing for years, not changing your ways because it's easier for you", rather "making a change and making the effort to be inclusive of everyone".
tunaafi
Posted: Tuesday, April 25, 2017 4:35:21 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 6/3/2014
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Location: Karlín, Praha, Czech Republic
percival pecksniff wrote:
I for one will continue to use man to signify both sexes, and I have four sisters ....


Man, it took guts to say that...

... and hope to be taken seriously.


TheParser wrote:
Congratulations on your courage. ...

With admiration and awe, I wish you (and your sensible sisters) a nice day!


Oh.

Someone took it seriously!
Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Tuesday, May 2, 2017 10:03:22 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 9/12/2011
Posts: 29,106
Neurons: 167,105
Location: Livingston, Scotland, United Kingdom
Sadly (for some) Percival (otherwise known as Parcifal or Percy) left the land of Freedelfia almost five years ago and has not been heard from since.

There are rumours of his reincarnation in other identities and iterations . . .

His style of poetry (even down to using coloured inks) has been copied faithfully (I think . . .) under other names (I think).


Wyrd bið ful aræd - bull!
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