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Do women cross-dress? Options
Teluu
Posted: Friday, October 14, 2011 6:33:52 PM

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Is it common to see woman cross-dresser? When I hear a cross-dresser, immediately I know it is a man who wears a women's dress. When do you detect what a woman wearing is a man's dress and find it cross-dress, if that woman is not a lesbian.

I'm a free minded person!
Briton
Posted: Friday, October 14, 2011 6:57:38 PM

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Yes, you do see women cross-dressers although with today's fashions it might not be so obvious :)

A woman cross-dresser does not have to be a lesbian any more than a male cross-dresser has to be gay. Also not all lesbians are cross-dressers.

Why would you want to make the distinction?

(A noted female cross-dresser was the writer Georges Sand who lived with Chopin.)

jmacann
Posted: Friday, October 14, 2011 7:02:37 PM
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What is it that gives them away so blatantly? -if I may ask.

---
Certainly, she was.
mailady
Posted: Friday, October 14, 2011 8:02:08 PM

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Women in the US wear pants (jeans,trousers,suits,etc) all the time. I would not call this cross dressing. That would be with the intention to look like a man. I don't think I have ever seen a woman dress with this intent,but I guess that's the point.
excaelis
Posted: Friday, October 14, 2011 8:37:55 PM

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A loin cloth and crown of thorns is de rigueur, I gather.

Sanity is not statistical
almostfreebird
Posted: Friday, October 14, 2011 8:43:32 PM

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How about Joan Jett?

Is she gay?



martyg
Posted: Friday, October 14, 2011 8:45:17 PM
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diane keaton wears pants most of the time.
mailady
Posted: Friday, October 14, 2011 8:52:58 PM

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ALL women wear pants most of the time.

Joan Jett,I suspect,is wearing a costume for the stage.
Hope1
Posted: Friday, October 14, 2011 9:23:20 PM

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Cross dressing has nothing to do with being 'gay'.

From what I understand, cross-dressing gives the person sexual gratification from wearing the opposite gender's clothing. For instance, for a male, it is wearing silky underwear that gives him a thrill.

I can not think that wearing boxers or undershorts would 'do it' for a woman. But what do I know? :-)

Pants have been proper attire for women in America for years, at least since Katharine Hepburn. :-)
However, lots of women have dressed as men to get a job or enter a profession such as medicine before women were allowed equality.
There have been lots of films made of this.

Why are we discussing this? Under Legal?

Every man has a right to his opinion, but no man has a right to be wrong in his facts. Bernard M. Baruch 1870-1965
jcbarros
Posted: Friday, October 14, 2011 11:11:51 PM

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Did you see Marlene Dietrich in "Morocco"? She was great!
Maggie
Posted: Friday, October 14, 2011 11:13:48 PM

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For some women, 'cross dress' is entirely natural.
Angel


"The nearest thing to eternal life we will ever see on this earth is a government program." - Ronald Reagan
Teluu
Posted: Friday, October 14, 2011 11:22:40 PM

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Why are we discussing this? Under Legal? Hope1 asked.

It's legal for women to wear men's dress and term it normal but, not for a man to wear women's dress to work or look for work. That's why it's on Legal tag.

I'm a free minded person!
Teluu
Posted: Friday, October 14, 2011 11:33:56 PM

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I don't think anyone has call on Joan Jett to be a cross dresser. Maybe people think it's a gay dressing.

I'm a free minded person!
Hope1
Posted: Saturday, October 15, 2011 12:07:12 AM

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I do not know the legalities of a man wearing a skirt, unless maybe he is Scottish. :-)

Maybe 'legal ' is too strong a word.

There are ways to change customs if you feel that strongly about it (Katharine Hepburn led the charge in the US for women to wear trousers) although you would probably get some resistance from our male counterparts if you want them to wear a skirt - assuming you are male and live in Toronto. Pants are much more comfortable! Think of those knees! (And Katharine got lots of resistance.)

Sorry I even added the sentence about past times when women had to pose as men so as not to be downtrodden as it has absolutely nothing to do with cross dressing for sexual reasons. And to reiterate what has been said by several people - cross dressing has nothing to do with preferring a person of the same sex for a partner.

Every man has a right to his opinion, but no man has a right to be wrong in his facts. Bernard M. Baruch 1870-1965
intelfam
Posted: Saturday, October 15, 2011 6:00:39 AM

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Teluu wrote:
Why are we discussing this? Under Legal? Hope1 asked.

It's legal for women to wear men's dress and term it normal but, not for a man to wear women's dress to work or look for work. That's why it's on Legal tag.


That's interesting. It is illegal for a man to wear women's clothes [in pubic?] in Canada? It is not the case in the UK, although I would imagine there would be some harassment of the wearer, including, I would imagine, in seeking employment as you suggest. I wonder whether a cross dresser could claim discrimination under the UK legislation. I guess it would depend on whether it was seen as a form of sexuality, which I doubt would be (legally) the case.





"The voice of the majority is no proof of justice." - Schiller
GeorgeV
Posted: Saturday, October 15, 2011 9:25:56 AM

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http://www.comingsoon.net/news/movienews.php?id=83138

Brain-washing starts in the cradle. - Arthur Koestler
Hope1
Posted: Saturday, October 15, 2011 10:29:25 AM

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I would like to hear where Teluu got the idea it is illegal for a man to wear a woman's clothing in Canada in public. I would be very surprised if that is the case but I am not a lawyer. I have never heard of such a case probably because men do not WANT to do it. Unless they are drag queens in a strip club like you see on TV. I see articles every now and then about Toronto's night life, but have no idea what happens at those clubs.

Every man has a right to his opinion, but no man has a right to be wrong in his facts. Bernard M. Baruch 1870-1965
brimchild
Posted: Saturday, October 15, 2011 10:43:33 AM
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Yes, female cross-dressers are seen, but you might not know it ;). They would mostly be recognized only in the context of a drag show, because, unlike male cross-dressers, they have little cultural visibility. Also, female features are more easily passed off as naturally male than vice-versa. It is easy to mistake them for baby-faced males (as long as they bind their breasts), and if not mistaken for a man, a female cross-dresser may be mistaken as a dyke.
False facial hair is not uncommon but not necessary(like makeup for male cross-dressers.) And yes, female cross-dressers are usually gay or at least queer, as these groups are more likely to perform genderfuck. As a fetish, it is less common than male cross-dressing, especially as seen in straight men and women.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drag_king

Edited to add:
Hope1 wrote:
I would like to hear where Teluu got the idea it is illegal for a man to wear a woman's clothing in Canada in public. I would be very surprised if that is the case but I am not a lawyer. I have never heard of such a case probably because men do not WANT to do it. Unless they are drag queens in a strip club like you see on TV. I see articles every now and then about Toronto's night life, but have no idea what happens at those clubs.


Drag queens do not strip. They are performers and entertainers. Probably there are transvestites who strip(pre-op transsexuals I would imagine), but they are not even close to the same thing. I agree however that there is no way it is illegal for a man to publicly dress in drag in Canada. This thread is miscategorized, plain and simple.
FounDit
Posted: Saturday, October 15, 2011 10:50:06 AM

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I read once of a woman who dressed as a man back in the 1800's in the American West. She was a stage coach driver, working on that job for years. As I recall, it wasn't until she was near death and was being examined by a doctor that the truth of her gender was discovered. An interesting case, for sure.

Here in the states, I have seen women dress as men, but this is more than simply wearing jeans or pants; that isn't dressing like a man. No, these are lesbian women who deliberately want to appear masculine. I have seen these types frequently.

I have also seen men who dress as a woman, deliberately trying to appear as a woman. Some men cross-dress for the sexual thrill of wearing women's garments, and some men want to take on the role of a woman as they are gay. These call themselves sissies. I've never known any but have read personal accounts they have written about their lifestyle.

Humans are fascinating in all the ways they express themselves. There are people who experience erotic feelings for inanimate objects like walls, buildings, cars, etc.

Fascinating, as Spock would say.



A great many people will think they are thinking when they are merely rearranging their prejudices. ~ William James ~
almostfreebird
Posted: Saturday, October 15, 2011 11:02:34 AM

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I don't like women's facial hair that much.
















Hope1
Posted: Saturday, October 15, 2011 11:08:56 AM

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Yes, humans are fascinating.

Here is a website that explains the different categories.

From what I could find out on Google , it is no longer illegal to cross dress in the States, Canada, or the UK. Although one site for cross dressers seemed to think it varied as to small town locations in the US when stopped by police. I should have looked for a date on that website.

Anyone a CDN lawyer?


http://www.netdoctor.co.uk/sexandrelationships/transvesticism.htm

Guess I did not do it right as the link is not viable with clicking.

Every man has a right to his opinion, but no man has a right to be wrong in his facts. Bernard M. Baruch 1870-1965
martyg
Posted: Saturday, October 15, 2011 11:55:03 AM
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@mallady
<ALL women wear pants most of the time.>

my own unverified opinion disagrees. nyc women wear dresses more than pants. a stroll down madison ave or 5th avenue will attest to that.

quietly leaving the scene are a couple of fancy restaurants that require women to wear dresses as pants are not permitted for entry.
excaelis
Posted: Saturday, October 15, 2011 3:48:04 PM

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Gertrude Lawrence strides into the Algonquin Hotel lobby wearing a pants suit, to the horror of Noel Coward :

Coward : Good God, Gertie ! You look almost like a man !

Lawrence : So do you, Noel.


That's gonna leave a mark !

Sanity is not statistical
IMcRout
Posted: Saturday, October 15, 2011 3:48:46 PM

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I totally take back all those times I didn't want to nap when I was younger. (Anon)
Teluu
Posted: Saturday, October 15, 2011 4:20:59 PM

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Hope1 wrote:
I would like to hear where Teluu got the idea it is illegal for a man to wear a woman's clothing in Canada in public. I would be very surprised if that is the case but I am not a lawyer. I have never heard of such a case probably because men do not WANT to do it. Unless they are drag queens in a strip club like you see on TV. I see articles every now and then about Toronto's night life, but have no idea what happens at those clubs.


Please read my comments properly, I have not mention any legality of men wearing clothes in Canada. The point I want to put forward is the public view of the whole idea of cross-dressing all over the world. Women OK to wear men's cloths openly and men not. Unless on drag queen entertainment scenes.

I'm a free minded person!
FounDit
Posted: Saturday, October 15, 2011 6:09:41 PM

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Teluu wrote:

Is it common to see woman cross-dresser? When I hear a cross-dresser, immediately I know it is a man who wears a women's dress. When do you detect what a woman wearing is a man's dress and find it cross-dress, if that woman is not a lesbian. (My emphasis--FounDit)

If I understand you correctly, you are asking when is a woman considered to be cross-dressing if she is not a lesbian.

I would say the difference is in the details. If a woman is dressed in jeans or even a business suit, she would not be considered cross-dressing unless she also wore: no nail polish, wore little or no makeup, wore mens shoes or shoes that looked masculine, and had a hair style/cut that resembled a man's cut/style.

If she did all or most of these things, she likely would be considered a lesbian just by appearances, and would be considered cross-dressing. Just my opinion.



A great many people will think they are thinking when they are merely rearranging their prejudices. ~ William James ~
intelfam
Posted: Sunday, October 16, 2011 6:44:21 AM

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Teluu wrote:
Hope1 wrote:
I would like to hear where Teluu got the idea it is illegal for a man to wear a woman's clothing in Canada in public. I would be very surprised if that is the case but I am not a lawyer. I have never heard of such a case probably because men do not WANT to do it. Unless they are drag queens in a strip club like you see on TV. I see articles every now and then about Toronto's night life, but have no idea what happens at those clubs.


Please read my comments properly, I have not mention any legality of men wearing clothes in Canada. The point I want to put forward is the public view of the whole idea of cross-dressing all over the world. Women OK to wear men's cloths openly and men not. Unless on drag queen entertainment scenes.


I think it was me who got the idea, from one of the posts, that cross-dressing is illegal in Canada- mea culpa!

I live in the UK, in a town of some 60k inhabitants and I have frequently seen 3 male cross-dressers, shopping locally - one lives just up the road from me. I think he attends services in the local Universalist church - without comment, I understand. Given that we are only 25 miles from the centre of London, often the seat of novel behaviour, I do not know if these guys would get away with their dress in other regions of the UK.



"The voice of the majority is no proof of justice." - Schiller
Hope1
Posted: Sunday, October 16, 2011 11:39:14 PM

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Teluu wrote:
Why are we discussing this? Under Legal? Hope1 asked.

It's legal for women to wear men's dress and term it normal but, not for a man to wear women's dress to work or look for work. That's why it's on Legal tag.




Why do YOU care, Teluu?

Every man has a right to his opinion, but no man has a right to be wrong in his facts. Bernard M. Baruch 1870-1965
intelfam
Posted: Tuesday, October 18, 2011 7:39:41 AM

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Hope1 wrote:
Teluu wrote:
Why are we discussing this? Under Legal? Hope1 asked.

It's legal for women to wear men's dress and term it normal but, not for a man to wear women's dress to work or look for work. That's why it's on Legal tag.




Now I am confused again. Is someone saying it is against the law (illegal) in Canada for someone to cross-dress when they are working or applying for work?

Inadvisable, certainly but illegal? Please de-confuse me!



"The voice of the majority is no proof of justice." - Schiller
Hope1
Posted: Tuesday, October 18, 2011 11:31:08 AM

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As far as I know, you can legally dress any way you want in Canada. Here is a quote of mine and also here are two quotes by Teluu. Explanation follows.

Teluu wrote:
Why are we discussing this? Under Legal? Hope1 asked.

It's legal for women to wear men's dress and term it normal but, not for a man to wear women's dress to work or look for work. That's why it's on Legal tag.
(This is quote one.)

[quote=Teluu]Please read my comments properly, I have not mention any legality of men wearing clothes in Canada. The point I want to put forward is the public view of the whole idea of cross-dressing all over the world. Women OK to wear men's cloths openly and men not. Unless on drag queen entertainment scenes. (This is quote two which contradicts what he said in quote one.)

Intelfam,

Sorry to confuse you again. I will do one last message to try to clarify.

First of all I broke the rule of never writing about a topic with which one is not familiar. Perhaps because of his/her English I have misunderstood what Teluu was saying in his/her second quote. The use of the words 'women all over the world ' are cross dressing leads me to think he/ she means that by wearing pants - trousers to you :-) - that that is cross dressing. And that bothered me. It is 2011 and women have been wearing pants in advanced societies for many years. I was just trying to tell him what the definition of cross dressing is in my opinion. I thought that if this topic was to be discussed, it should have been under Customs not Legal. I also wondered if Teluu had a reason for feeling men are discriminated against. I, of course, do not know Teluu's gender or culture and have assumed, perhaps incorrectly, that he is male. Perhaps you could re- read the thread again if there is anything else about which you are still confused.

It did become a very confusing thread and I am still not sure exactly why the topic was broached or if he/she indeed thinks what I thought was meant.
But enough.

To digress -

Canada, for the most part, has liberal, sensible laws. Of course I am a little biased, but in my view, Canada is the best place in the world in which to live!
Except for the winters. :-) I spend those in warm countries.

Every man has a right to his opinion, but no man has a right to be wrong in his facts. Bernard M. Baruch 1870-1965
Tovarish
Posted: Tuesday, October 18, 2011 8:01:24 PM

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An Accubra hat, a Driza Bone coat, a chembrey shirt, jeans and riding boots,

funny, no one has ever mistaken me for a bloke!!!!!!

Must be a quick check on the shirt to see which way it is buttoned.
FounDit
Posted: Wednesday, October 19, 2011 2:40:59 PM

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Tovarish:

Ri-i-i-ght. When our eyes drop below your chin level, we're checking out your shirt to see which way it is buttoned! Absolutely! I must pass this along to all my buddies, so they can explain to the ladies what's really happening. Women tend to misunderstand all the time.

Thanks, Tovarish!...Applause





A great many people will think they are thinking when they are merely rearranging their prejudices. ~ William James ~
Hope1
Posted: Wednesday, October 19, 2011 4:28:09 PM

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Love it, FounDit!Applause

Every man has a right to his opinion, but no man has a right to be wrong in his facts. Bernard M. Baruch 1870-1965
Peaceward
Posted: Wednesday, October 19, 2011 4:53:55 PM
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Not very long ago yet women had not worn trousers what now in everywhere is a usual thing already.



What goes around, comes around.
Jyrkkä Jätkä
Posted: Wednesday, October 19, 2011 6:34:19 PM

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In Finland women were allowed to go in the army voluntarily in the beginning of the 90's, about the same time I retired. After that I've seen lots of female officers during my reserve duty days. I've never stared at their buttons.
Not talking


In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.
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