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'leaking' is an adjectival participle or present continuous tense + an intransitive verb Options
A cooperator
Posted: Saturday, November 2, 2019 7:31:13 PM

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Hi,
"The leaking plumbing was repaired" can be thought of as "The plumbing which was leaking was repaired".

So, is "was leaking" in "The plumbing was leaking", an ordinary linking verb + an adjectival participle, or a present continuous tense + an intransitive verb?


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BobShilling
Posted: Sunday, November 3, 2019 4:05:59 AM
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A cooperator wrote:
Hi,
"The leaking plumbing was repaired" can be thought of as "The plumbing which was leaking was repaired".


The first 'leaking' is a present participle functioning adjectivally. The second is part of the past progressive of the verb 'leak'.
A cooperator
Posted: Sunday, November 3, 2019 5:02:21 PM

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BobShilling wrote:
A cooperator wrote:
Hi,
"The leaking plumbing was repaired" can be thought of as "The plumbing which was leaking was repaired".


The first 'leaking' is a present participle functioning adjectivally. The second is part of the past progressive of the verb 'leak'.


Thanks a lot,
But, a learner of English or maybe even a native English speaker can confuse 'leaking' is a present participle functioning adjectivally' with the 'leaking' part of the past progressive of the verb 'leak'.

I am, myself, can only quite distinguish that 'leaking' is an adjectival participle in "The leaking plumbing was repaired" since it is modifying a noun.
However, Audienduos, some day was drilling this rule into me:
An interesting book.(= a book which is interesting)
An engrossing story (= a story which is engrossing)
A boring party (= a party which was boring)
An enlightening explanation (= an explanation which is enlightening)

So, based on what Audienduos said, whatever a participle is, we can use this rule.
So, "The leaking plumbing was repaired" = (means) "The plumbing which was leaking was repaired."


So, how is 'leaking' in the first is an adjectival participle, but it is part of the past progressive of the verb 'leak' in the second?

In other words, why you didn't say 'leaking', in the second, is an adjectival participle used predictively (after a linking verb)? ('Was'... an ordinary linking verb, 'Leaking" ...Intransitive/active/adjectival participle)

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Audiendus
Posted: Sunday, November 3, 2019 8:18:42 PM
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A cooperator wrote:
But, a learner of English or maybe even a native English speaker can confuse 'leaking' is a present participle functioning adjectivally' with the 'leaking' part of the past progressive of the verb 'leak'.

There is a simple test to distinguish the two. If "very ____ing" makes sense, the "____ing" word is adjectival. If "very ____ing" does not make sense, the "____ing" word is part of a progressive tense.

The book is very interesting
The story is very engrossing
The party was very boring
The explanation was very enlightening

The plumbing was very leaking
I am very studying
It was very raining
She has been very writing
The man was very running to catch the bus.
Someone is very shouting
A cooperator
Posted: Tuesday, November 5, 2019 5:30:24 AM

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Audiendus wrote:
A cooperator wrote:
But, a learner of English or maybe even a native English speaker can confuse 'leaking' is a present participle functioning adjectivally' with the 'leaking' part of the past progressive of the verb 'leak'.

There is a simple test to distinguish the two. If "very ____ing" makes sense, the "____ing" word is adjectival. If "very ____ing" does not make sense, the "____ing" word is part of a progressive tense.

The book is very interesting
The story is very engrossing
The party was very boring
The explanation was very enlightening

The plumbing was very leaking
I am very studying
It was very raining
She has been very writing
The man was very running to catch the bus.
Someone is very shouting



Thanks a lot, Audiendus,
That's a good idea.
But, based on the rule you gave: An interesting book.(= a book which is interesting)
So, "The leaking plumbing was repaired" = (means) "The plumbing which was leaking was repaired."

So, as long as they are just two ways to say the same thing, how is 'leaking' in the first an adjectival participle, but it is part of the past progressive of the verb 'leak' in the second?
However, 'interesting' keeps 'an adjectival participle' in both "An interesting book was read.(= a book which was interesting was read.)"
I hope you understand the point.


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Audiendus
Posted: Tuesday, November 5, 2019 8:47:01 AM
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A cooperator wrote:
But, based on the rule you gave: An interesting book.(= a book which is interesting)
So, "The leaking plumbing was repaired" = (means) "The plumbing which was leaking was repaired."

So, as long as they are just two ways to say the same thing, how is 'leaking' in the first an adjectival participle, but it is part of the past progressive of the verb 'leak' in the second?
However, 'interesting' keeps 'an adjectival participle' in both "An interesting book was read.(= a book which was interesting was read.)"
I hope you understand the point.

Think carefully about why "very" makes sense in some cases but not in others. A predicative adjectival participle describes the nature of something (what kind of thing it is) or the state of something (what condition it is in). Just as something can be very big or very small, it can be very interesting or very boring. A progressive tense, however, describes an action of something (what it is/was doing). We cannot say "the plumbing very leaked"; likewise we cannot say "the plumbing was very leaking" (but we can say "the plumbing was very leaky").

When the "-ing" word is placed before the noun, this difference is hidden, because in both the above cases the "-ing" word is now functioning as an adjective. But you can still apply the "very" test. "A very interesting book" makes sense, so if "interesting" were predicative it would still be adjectival. But we cannot say "very leaking plumbing" or "a very running man" or "a very listening child", so in those cases the "-ing" word would be part of a progressive tense if it were predicative.

As always, you cannot analyse these sentences just by considering the form of the words; you have to consider their meaning also.
A cooperator
Posted: Thursday, November 7, 2019 6:12:26 PM

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Audiendus wrote:
A cooperator wrote:
But, a learner of English or maybe even a native English speaker can confuse 'leaking' is a present participle functioning adjectivally' with the 'leaking' part of the past progressive of the verb 'leak'.

There is a simple test to distinguish the two. If "very ____ing" makes sense, the "____ing" word is adjectival. If "very ____ing" does not make sense, the "____ing" word is part of a progressive tense.

The book is very interesting
The story is very engrossing
The party was very boring
The explanation was very enlightening

The plumbing was very leaking
I am very studying
It was very raining
She has been very writing
The man was very running to catch the bus.
Someone is very shouting



For some "____ing" words , such as 'striking': 1. means to stop working on your duty asking about demands to be accepted. 2. very noticeable, making a strong impression:
Many workers sympathised with the striking miners. [ the sense #1; adjectival present participle]
There is a striking similarity between the two men.[the sense #2; "striking" is an ordinary adjective although it is formed like the adjectival present participle "striking" #2 - they are alike in the spellings]
So, it's obvious that 'striking' is an adjective in "There is a striking similarity between the two men".
On the other hand, in "Many workers sympathised with the striking miners." it's very difficult to know if "striking" is an adjectival present participle or part of a progressive tense even with this test.

"Many workers sympathised with the striking miners." = "Many workers sympathised with the striking miners(the miners who are striking.)"


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Audiendus
Posted: Thursday, November 7, 2019 9:03:04 PM
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A cooperator wrote:
On the other hand, in "Many workers sympathised with the striking miners." it's very difficult to know if "striking" is an adjectival present participle or part of a progressive tense even with this test.

"Many workers sympathised with the striking miners." = "Many workers sympathised with the striking miners(the miners who are striking.)"


"Striking" is what they were doing; it refers here to an action. So "are/were striking" is a progressive tense.
A cooperator
Posted: Sunday, November 10, 2019 5:37:35 PM

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Audiendus wrote:
A cooperator wrote:
But, based on the rule you gave: An interesting book.(= a book which is interesting)
So, "The leaking plumbing was repaired" = (means) "The plumbing which was leaking was repaired."

So, as long as they are just two ways to say the same thing, how is 'leaking' in the first an adjectival participle, but it is part of the past progressive of the verb 'leak' in the second?
However, 'interesting' keeps 'an adjectival participle' in both "An interesting book was read.(= a book which was interesting was read.)"
I hope you understand the point.

Think carefully about why "very" makes sense in some cases but not in others. A predicative adjectival participle describes the nature of something (what kind of thing it is) or the state of something (what condition it is in). Just as something can be very big or very small, it can be very interesting or very boring. A progressive tense, however, describes an action of something (what it is/was doing). We cannot say "the plumbing very leaked"; likewise we cannot say "the plumbing was very leaking" (but we can say "the plumbing was very leaky").

When the "-ing" word is placed before the noun, this difference is hidden, because in both the above cases the "-ing" word is now functioning as an adjective. But you can still apply the "very" test. "A very interesting book" makes sense, so if "interesting" were predicative it would still be adjectival. But we cannot say "very leaking plumbing" or "a very running man" or "a very listening child", so in those cases the "-ing" word would be part of a progressive tense if it were predicative.


Audiendus,
According to this thread entitled 'recurring billing/leaking plumbing/escaped lion' NOT 'recurred billing/leaked plumbing/escaping lio,

First,
(A) Participles which can only be used as adjectival present participles, and not as part of a continuous tense wherever the participle is placed, predictively(after a linking verb) or attributively (before a noun):
1- Recurring billing is a payment model used when a subscription business charges a customer's credit card for products or services on a regular billing schedule. (= Billing which is recurring is a payment model.....) [ "recurring" is only an adjectival participle since "very recurring" can make sense - we can say "is very recurring"]
A recurring invoice is a type of invoicing in which a supplier or merchant automatically charges a customer for goods or services at regular intervals. (= An invoice which is recurring is a type of invoicing.......) [ "recurring" is only an adjectival participle since "very recurring" can make sense - we can say "is very recurring"]

2- "An interesting book was read.(= a book which was interesting was read.)" ["interesting" is only an adjectival participle since "very interesting" can make sense - we can say "was very interesting"]

(B) Participles which can only be used as part of a continuous tense, not as an adjectival present participles wherever the participle is placed, predictively(after a linking verb) or attributively (before a noun):
1- "the winking lights of buoys out to sea" = "the lights of buoys which are/were/have been winking out to sea") (the sense #2, Intransitive] to shine with a light that flashes on and off) [ "winking" is part of a continuous tense since 'very winking' doesn't make sense - we cannot say "are/were/have been very winking"]
2- The leaking plumbing was repaired" = (means) "The plumbing which was leaking was repaired." ["leaking" is part of a continuous tense since 'very leaking' doesn't make sense - we cannot say "was very leaking".]
3- Many workers sympathised with the striking miners." = "Many workers sympathised with the striking miners(the miners who are striking.)"["Striking" is part of a continuous tense since 'very striking' doesn't make sense - we cannot say "are/were very striking". "striking" is what they were doing; it refers here to an action. So "are/were striking" is a progressive tense.]
4- "The escaping lion was being shot" = (means) "The lion which was escaping was being shot." ["escaping" is part of a continuous tense since 'very leaking' doesn't make sense -we cannot say "was very escaping"].
5- A man committed suicide by throwing himself under a moving train.(= ....a train which was moving.)
A moving train flipped over onto its other side. (= A train which was moving flipped over onto its other side)

Final, do you think that the 'very' test can be useful to distinguish if any -ing word is used as an adjectival participle or part of a continuous tense wherever the 'ing' word is placed?




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A cooperator
Posted: Sunday, November 10, 2019 5:58:34 PM

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Audiendus wrote:
Think carefully about why "very" makes sense in some cases but not in others. A predicative adjectival participle describes the nature of something (what kind of thing it is) or the state of something (what condition it is in). Just as something can be very big or very small, it can be very interesting or very boring. A progressive tense, however, describes an action of something (what it is/was doing). We cannot say "the plumbing very leaked"; likewise we cannot say "the plumbing was very leaking" (but we can say "the plumbing was very leaky").

When the "-ing" word is placed before the noun, this difference is hidden, because in both the above cases the "-ing" word is now functioning as an adjective. But you can still apply the "very" test. "A very interesting book" makes sense, so if "interesting" were predicative it would still be adjectival. But we cannot say "very leaking plumbing" or "a very running man" or "a very listening child", so in those cases the "-ing" word would be part of a progressive tense if it were predicative.



Audiendus,

Second, the "very" test to distinguish if a present participle is an adjectival present participle, or part of a continuous tense can also be applied for distinguishing if a past participle is used as an adjectival past participle, or part of a passive verb wherever past participle is placed, predictively(after a linking verb) or attributively (before a noun):

1- an escaped lion(= a lion which has escaped) ["escaped" is part of a present perfect tense since "very escaped" cannot make sense - we cannot say "has very inspired"]

2- there is a shortage of trained teachers. =( there is a shortage of teachers who are trained.) [ "trained" is part of a passive verb since "very trained" cannot make sense - we cannot say "are very trained"]

3- an inspired leader (= an inspired who is/was/has been inspired) ["inspired" is part of a passive verb since 'very inspired" cannot make sense - we cannot say "is/was/has been very inspired"]

Third, for 'escaped', I only see it is used as part of perfect tense, not as adjective past participle, nor as part of a passive verb.

Final, for 'trained', I see "very" test is not helpful since "very trained" can make sense - we can say "are very trained". So, how can I distinguish if 'trained' is used as an adjectival past participle, or part of a passive verb?








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A cooperator
Posted: Sunday, November 10, 2019 6:35:27 PM

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I know the participle of the sense #2 for "Wink" can be used attributively(before a noun) although it is a part of a continuous tense.
[the sense #2, Intransitive] to shine with a light that flashes on and off: ("the winking lights of buoys out to sea" = "the lights of buoys which are/were/have been winking out to sea")

However, for the sense #1, I don't know if it can be used attributively(before a noun) or not.
[the sense #1, Intransitive/Transitive] to close and open one eye quickly, usually to communicate amusement or a secret message:[+at]
Joel winked at me, and I realized he was joking.
The girl that is winking to the camera is my classmate.
The girl that is winking at me is my classmate.

So, can I say:
"The winking girl to the camera is my classmate."(= The girl that is winking to the camera is my classmate.)
The winking girl at me is my classmate. (The girl that is winking at me is my classmate.)


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Audiendus
Posted: Sunday, November 10, 2019 9:38:16 PM
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I am sorry, I cannot spend any more time on this thread. I will leave it to others to answer if they wish.
A cooperator
Posted: Tuesday, November 12, 2019 12:01:24 AM

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Audiendus wrote:
I am sorry, I cannot spend any more time on this thread. I will leave it to others to answer if they wish.


Audiendus,
Could you please at least confirm these two points, especially those participles which are paired with prepositions, such as 'wink at/to', make me confuse:
The first point:
I know the participle of the sense #2 for "Wink" can be used attributively(before a noun) although it is a part of a continuous tense.
[the sense #2, Intransitive] to shine with a light that flashes on and off: ("the winking lights of buoys out to sea" = "the lights of buoys which are/were/have been winking out to sea")

However, for the sense #1, I don't know if it can be used attributively(before a noun) or not.
[the sense #1, Intransitive/Transitive] to close and open one eye quickly, usually to communicate amusement or a secret message:[+at]
Joel winked at me, and I realized he was joking.
The girl that is winking to the camera is my classmate.
The girl that is winking at me is my classmate.

So, can I say:
"The winking girl to the camera is my classmate."(= The girl that is winking to the camera is my classmate.)
The winking girl at me is my classmate. (The girl that is winking at me is my classmate.)



The second point:
The present participle can be used as a verb - (He is working) - or an adjective - (a working mother) - whilst the ing word is used as a noun only(NOT a gerund, since gerund has not plural and "of" after it) in (The inner workings of a computer are beyond me.)
So, I am seeing "a very working mother" makes sense. So, 'working' is used an attributive adjectival participle.
But, if "working" were predicative it would NOT still be adjectival.(we cannot say "a mother that/who is very working")
As a result, 'working' is adjectival in the first phrase, but part of a continuous tense in the second although they are two ways to say the same thing: "a working mother (=a mother that/who is working). So, if we are going to phrase "a very working mother" as "a mother who/that is very working", we must write 'very' in the second phrase as long as it makes sense in the first alternative phrase.

So,
- "working" is functioning as an adjective if placed before the noun, but part of a continuous tense if predicative.
- "interesting" is functioning only as an adjective (never as part of a continuous tense) if placed before the noun or predicative?
- "leaking" is functioning as part of a continuous tense(never as an adjective) if if placed before the noun or predicative?
When the "-ing" word is placed before the noun, this difference is hidden, because in both the above cases the "-ing" word is now functioning as an adjective. But you can still apply the "very" test.



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A cooperator
Posted: Saturday, November 16, 2019 4:02:49 PM

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Audiendus, replied to me as much as he could.
Could anyone please take some of their precious time out to reply to these two points of mine?

Could you please at least confirm these two points, especially those participles which are paired with prepositions, such as 'wink at/to', make me confuse:
The first point:
I know the participle of the sense #2 for "Wink" can be used attributively(before a noun) although it is a part of a continuous tense.
[the sense #2, Intransitive] to shine with a light that flashes on and off: ("the winking lights of buoys out to sea" = "the lights of buoys which are/were/have been winking out to sea")

However, for the sense #1, I don't know if it can be used attributively(before a noun) or not.
[the sense #1, Intransitive/Transitive] to close and open one eye quickly, usually to communicate amusement or a secret message:[+at]
Joel winked at me, and I realized he was joking.
The girl that is winking to the camera is my classmate.
The girl that is winking at me is my classmate.

So, can I say:
"The winking girl to the camera is my classmate."(= The girl that is winking to the camera is my classmate.)
The winking girl at me is my classmate. (The girl that is winking at me is my classmate.)



The second point:
The present participle can be used as a verb - (He is working) - or an adjective - (a working mother) - whilst the ing word is used as a noun only(NOT a gerund, since gerund has not plural and "of" after it) in (The inner workings of a computer are beyond me.)
So, I am seeing "a very working mother" makes sense. So, 'working' is used an attributive adjectival participle.
But, if "working" were predicative it would NOT still be adjectival.(we cannot say "a mother that/who is very working")
As a result, 'working' is adjectival in the first phrase, but part of a continuous tense in the second although they are two ways to say the same thing: "a working mother (=a mother that/who is working). So, if we are going to phrase "a very working mother" as "a mother who/that is very working", we must write 'very' in the second phrase as long as it makes sense in the first alternative phrase.

So,
- "working" is functioning as an adjective if placed before the noun, but part of a continuous tense if predicative.
- "interesting" is functioning only as an adjective (never as part of a continuous tense) if placed before the noun or predicative?
- "leaking" is functioning as part of a continuous tense(never as an adjective) if if placed before the noun or predicative?
When the "-ing" word is placed before the noun, this difference is hidden, because in both the above cases the "-ing" word is now functioning as an adjective. But you can still apply the "very" test.




Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
FounDit
Posted: Saturday, November 16, 2019 5:13:24 PM

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A cooperator wrote:
Audiendus, replied to me as much as he could.
Could anyone please take some of their precious time out to reply to these two points of mine?

Could you please at least confirm these two points, especially those participles which are paired with prepositions, such as 'wink at/to', make me confuse:
The first point:
I know the participle of the sense #2 for "Wink" can be used attributively(before a noun) although it is a part of a continuous tense.
[the sense #2, Intransitive] to shine with a light that flashes on and off: ("the winking lights of buoys out to sea" = "the lights of buoys which are/were/have been winking out to sea")

However, for the sense #1, I don't know if it can be used attributively(before a noun) or not.
[the sense #1, Intransitive/Transitive] to close and open one eye quickly, usually to communicate amusement or a secret message:[+at]
Joel winked at me, and I realized he was joking.
The girl that is winking to the camera is my classmate. We don't usually wink "to" someone or something, we wink "at" someone, or something.
The girl that is winking at me is my classmate. Okay.

So, can I say:
"The winking girl to the camera is my classmate." No.(= The girl that is winking at the camera is my classmate. ) You can say this one.
The winking girl at me is my classmate. No. (The girl that is winking at me is my classmate.) You can say it this way.



The second point:
The present participle can be used as a verb - (He is working) - or an adjective - (a working mother) - whilst the ing word is used as a noun only(NOT a gerund, since gerund has not plural and "of" after it) in (The inner workings of a computer are beyond me.)
So, I am seeing "a very working mother" makes sense. So, 'working' is used an attributive adjectival participle.
But, if "working" were predicative it would NOT still be adjectival.(we cannot say "a mother that/who is very working")
As a result, 'working' is adjectival in the first phrase, but part of a continuous tense in the second although they are two ways to say the same thing: "a working mother (=a mother that/who is working). So, if we are going to phrase "a very working mother" as "a mother who/that is very working", we must write 'very' in the second phrase as long as it makes sense in the first alternative phrase.
No. If she is a working mother, that is how she would be described. The word "very" adds nothing to that description. You would use "very" in combination with another adjective such as "hardworking", or "busy" mother.

So,
- "working" is functioning as an adjective if placed before the noun, but part of a continuous tense if predicative.
- "interesting" is functioning only as an adjective (never as part of a continuous tense) if placed before the noun or predicative?
- "leaking" is functioning as part of a continuous tense(never as an adjective) if if placed before the noun or predicative?
When the "-ing" word is placed before the noun, this difference is hidden, because in both the above cases the "-ing" word is now functioning as an adjective. But you can still apply the "very" test.
I can't help you with this part. My knowledge of grammar is very basic and grammar terms have changed dramatically since my school days.



We should look to the past to learn from it, not destroy our future because of it — FounDit
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