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HWNN1961
Posted: Sunday, October 02, 2011 8:14:20 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 2/13/2010
Posts: 3,098
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Location: United States
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6DPeCXV5bI


I believe that Europe is in a similar condition to what the USA was in under the Articles of Confederation. This was a loose (too loose) affiliation of 13 states that were dithering around about becoming a nation.

Europe is at a similar fork in the road now. Will Europe become the third superpower (with the USA and China) as the United States of Europe? Or, will the old nationalisms of the past tear the weak union apart?

Right now Germans resent Greeks for handouts. Greeks hate other states for telling them how to run their internal affairs. Will the EU fold after it's first real test? (The debt crisis). Or do they form a "more perfect union" and grow stronger?

In a similar vein, the strength of the USA used to be its ability to compromise, to get things done. We were the personification of the victory of practicality, of rationality, over ideology. None of the "isms" that plagued Europe of the 19th and 20th century really got hold in the USA. Lately, not so much. Compromise is an ugly word, and being in lock-step with ideology trumphs all else.

So, I wonder, will Europe, will America, recall the better angels of our natures? Will we join? Or will we die?

"Be without fear in the face of your enemies. Be brave and upright that God may love thee. Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death. Safeguard the helpless, and do no wrong". (Knight's Oath, Kingdom of Heaven)
GabhSigenod
Posted: Monday, October 03, 2011 9:06:49 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 12/22/2010
Posts: 1,662
Points: 4,934
Location: Gaeltacht, Ireland
Similarities for sure. Divisions are deep with extremely long histories.
Perhaps one should look to the Swiss Confederation Federal Elections 23 October 2011
for hints of the future.

Off to Singapore for a spell!
jmacann
Posted: Monday, October 03, 2011 1:24:28 PM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 2/20/2011
Posts: 1,297
Points: 3,887
Location: Spain
Quite right, GbS -not something to be done one way or the other. Let's hope it is not a make-believe, though.
leonAzul
Posted: Monday, October 03, 2011 5:04:56 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 8/11/2011
Posts: 2,116
Points: 6,355
Location: United States, FL
HWNN1961 wrote:

I believe that Europe is in a similar condition to what the USA was in under the Articles of Confederation. This was a loose (too loose) affiliation of 13 states that were dithering around about becoming a nation.


I would disagree. The only similarity is that the possibility of a political union is being discussed at all, and that the motives involve economic issues.

In 1790, the active citizens of the USA were rather homogeneous to begin with: male anglophone owners of property who sought to protect their investment and gain control of their trade relations by denying further tribute to the Crown. The purpose of a union was to create an environment that would continue to protect themselves and guarantee unimpeded opportunity going forward.

In 21st Century Europe, nations of various well-established languages and cultures have adopted a common currency to facilitate trade among themselves and globally. The administrative structure for this has opened the door to considering a uniform legislature and court of law for the region.

This leap from cooperation among competitors to common citizenry is much larger than that of from suppressed colonists to citizens of a new sovereign state.

"Sometimes I sits and thinks, and sometimes I just sits." - Satchel Paige
excaelis
Posted: Monday, October 03, 2011 6:17:52 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 6/30/2010
Posts: 5,711
Points: 17,072
Location: Canada
I'm sorry, I assumed this was the latest Republican campaign platform.

Sanity is not statistical
HWNN1961
Posted: Wednesday, October 05, 2011 2:11:36 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 2/13/2010
Posts: 3,098
Points: 9,315
Location: United States
Your point about the difficulties (cultural) for Europe that a largely homogenous 13 colonies didn't have is well put Leon.

I didn't mean to gloss over those differences. I have thought that the process would be on going with Europe but even allowing for the deeper differences, that the goal of Europeans was eventual Union.

1. Much of Europe is already in a military alliance (NATO).
2. Most Europeans speak English as a second language and are at least nominally Christian.
3. They now share a common currency.

Also, there were considerable difference in the Thirteen Colonies as well, most notably slavery, an issue that was glossed over, and solved later with blood. Many in the Colonies wanted an extremely weak central government (Jefferson), while others at the other extreme wanted a King (Hamilton). America was a land of Indians that didn't care one way or the other about the process, frontiersmen similarly insulated from politics, blacks shut out of the process. There were considerable cultural and political obstacles in the Colonies as well!

So, while allowing that the cultural divide is more difficult for Europe, it isn't insurmountable, and th analogy is apt.

@ Excaealis:

That is actually a plank in Face Ripper Monkey's campaign platform...where 9 out of 10 Drs recommend joining for your immediate health!

"Be without fear in the face of your enemies. Be brave and upright that God may love thee. Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death. Safeguard the helpless, and do no wrong". (Knight's Oath, Kingdom of Heaven)
excaelis
Posted: Wednesday, October 05, 2011 9:23:24 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 6/30/2010
Posts: 5,711
Points: 17,072
Location: Canada
In breaking news The Tea Party has launched its new youth branch, The Tea Par-tay : Hip Meets Replacement Hip.

Sanity is not statistical
leonAzul
Posted: Wednesday, October 05, 2011 9:59:09 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 8/11/2011
Posts: 2,116
Points: 6,355
Location: United States, FL
HWNN1961 wrote:
I have thought that the process would be on going with Europe but even allowing for the deeper differences, that the goal of Europeans was eventual Union.


Political union is not a universally shared goal among Europeans by any stretch of the imagination. As you point out, mutual cooperation on issues of defense, economics, and border security are already addressed through instruments such as NATO, the EU, and the Schengen Agreement.

The point is that the original thirteen colonies had a compelling motivation for at least confederacy as mutual protection against the predations of European interests. The well established European nations face no such threat to their individual sovereignty. In fact, as weaker economies begin to be a drag on the stronger ones, there is serious debate about the wisdom of a common currency at all.

"Sometimes I sits and thinks, and sometimes I just sits." - Satchel Paige
Reginald11
Posted: Monday, October 17, 2011 6:12:14 AM
Rank: Newbie

Joined: 10/17/2011
Posts: 3
Points: 9
Location: canada
I THOUGHT THE SITUATION WAS SAME, BEFORE NATO INITIATED IN LIBYA....!
its the story that precedes every agitation against a powerful self proclaimed ruler..
either you are Silenced or you areShhh
HWNN1961
Posted: Friday, December 09, 2011 10:19:11 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 2/13/2010
Posts: 3,098
Points: 9,315
Location: United States
It seems that financial difficulties are forcing the EU toward a "more perfect" union. No two states, no two sets of circumstances are exactly the same,

But, I find the willingness of EU members to submit their operating budgets to a central authority to be providing a glimmer of hope.

Maybe it will take a long time, but, I think that Europe is passing a point of no return where their fortunes are united. Literally.

"Be without fear in the face of your enemies. Be brave and upright that God may love thee. Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death. Safeguard the helpless, and do no wrong". (Knight's Oath, Kingdom of Heaven)
GabhSigenod
Posted: Saturday, December 10, 2011 8:47:03 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 12/22/2010
Posts: 1,662
Points: 4,934
Location: Gaeltacht, Ireland
I keep saying the Swiss Confederation has the correct management model for the EU.
Even some in IE agree.

Off to Singapore for a spell!
Ripen
Posted: Friday, December 16, 2011 9:51:19 PM
Rank: Newbie

Joined: 12/16/2011
Posts: 10
Points: 30
Location: Chicago, IL
excaelis wrote:
In breaking news The Tea Party has launched its new youth branch, The Tea Par-tay : Hip Meets Replacement Hip.


Bahaha, amazing.
Jeech
Posted: Thursday, December 22, 2011 3:41:02 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 10/21/2009
Posts: 1,449
Points: 4,342
Location: Pakistan
The Europian countries and the United States share about the 80% of the world's economy. The concentration of wealh in those countries which already are united waging wars world over and tearing the differences (with devide and rule policy -China vs India, Shia vs Sunni, etc) particularly in Asian countries, have emerged as a dangerous sign for world's peace. The union of the countries which historically are guilty of genocide and ethnic cleansing... the horrofic dream.

How do see it through the lenses?

*It's wonderful to know that all languages are Greek if not understood.*
Jyrkkä Jätkä
Posted: Thursday, December 22, 2011 5:03:23 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 9/21/2009
Posts: 19,932
Points: 59,805
Location: Helsinki, Finland
Jeech wrote:
The Europian countries and the United States share about the 80% of the world's economy. The concentration of wealh in those countries which already are united waging wars world over and tearing the differences (with devide and rule policy -China vs India, Shia vs Sunni, etc) particularly in Asian countries, have emerged as a dangerous sign for world's peace. The union of the countries which historically are guilty of genocide and ethnic cleansing... the horrofic dream.

How do see it through the lenses?


Sorry, Jeech,
but this time both the logic and the use of the language in your statement failed a lot. And you could spend some time reading the history again.


I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.
GabhSigenod
Posted: Friday, December 23, 2011 8:44:36 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 12/22/2010
Posts: 1,662
Points: 4,934
Location: Gaeltacht, Ireland
Location does not immunize man from human traits.

Off to Singapore for a spell!
Jeech
Posted: Saturday, December 24, 2011 7:46:53 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 10/21/2009
Posts: 1,449
Points: 4,342
Location: Pakistan
GabhSigenod wrote:
Location does not immunize man from human traits.


I think you respond to my post, with an evergreen truth. I can qoute JJ's signature to narrate your statement, "a fine beer may be judged with only one sip, but it's better to be thoughroly sure."

My post above is a litte "sip" of the living time.

*It's wonderful to know that all languages are Greek if not understood.*
Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Tuesday, December 27, 2011 9:31:42 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 9/12/2011
Posts: 2,201
Points: 6,631
Location: Scotland (via Earth, Sol system)
If it were to be a common-wealth with benefits for all members, there might be some point in it.

However all the UK seems to have 'gained' from it recently is increased taxes (to pay for 'gifts' of thousands of millions of pounds to the "Euro Community" to bail out countries made bankrupt by joining the common currency clique), and laws from a foriegn court which oppose the rulings by our own courts (the latest example being a known drug-dealer, wanted for murder in his own country, who entered the UK illegally, cannot be deported back to his own country, because the European court decides it violates his 'human rights to live where he pleases'. So he and his family have been supported free here for the past 18 months - as he can not work because he is not in the country legally...).

Sorry if I sound bitter, but I am.

Though lovers be lost, love shall not, and Death shall have no dominion. - Dylan Thomas
Rusty
Posted: Wednesday, December 28, 2011 3:23:24 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 1/29/2011
Posts: 147
Points: 444
Location: India
@ above post, that is insane. And what about the rights of the millions whose taxes support him? Why should they pay for him? Maybe the European court should bear the costs of his upkeep. And this guy is wanted for murder, whatever happened to the victim's human rights? No right to justice?

The world makes way for the man who knows where he is going. ~ Ralph Waldo Emerson
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