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Maps of the Ancient Sea Kings Options
RSoul
Posted: Saturday, August 31, 2019 8:29:30 AM

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Has anyone read 'Maps of the Ancient Sea Kings: Evidence of Advanced Civilisation in the Ice Age' by Charles Hapgood?

https://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/mapas_pirireis/esp_mapaspirireis05.htm

PDF: https://archive.org/details/HapgoodCharlesHutchinsMapsOfTheAncientSeaKings

I've always been fascinated by its premise. Admittedly it is bordering pseudoscience, although Hapgood was aware of this. I think it was first published in 1968 at a time when fringe belief systems were first starting to become more widely known (I'm talking about you von Däniken!). Hapgood wasn't just a crank in my opinion though and was actually a Harvard educated professor. In many ways he reminds me of T. C. Lethbridge.

I'm just curios as to what anyone else thinks.

Ubuntu isn't Swahili for 'can't install Debian'.
RSoul
Posted: Sunday, September 1, 2019 1:24:18 PM

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I'm guessing nobody's read this. Think

Ubuntu isn't Swahili for 'can't install Debian'.
FounDit
Posted: Sunday, September 1, 2019 3:52:59 PM

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RSoul wrote:
I'm guessing nobody's read this. Think


Not me.

But are the maps the only "evidence" he presents for the idea of now-unknown, advanced civilizations? And if so, does it really matter, if that is all we have?...Think


We should look to the past to learn from it, not destroy our future because of it — FounDit
RSoul
Posted: Sunday, September 1, 2019 4:39:20 PM

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FounDit wrote:
RSoul wrote:
I'm guessing nobody's read this. Think


Not me.

But are the maps the only "evidence" he presents for the idea of now-unknown, advanced civilizations? And if so, does it really matter, if that is all we have?...Think



Well, there is a bit more to it. Hapgood and USAF cartographers studied the portolan copies available to them and believed that there was evidence that they were very probably copies of copies possibly going back to the library at Alexandria in antiquity.

And even there they were probably ancient copies of copies. He comes to the conclusion after studying the various projections used on the maps. He thought that there was evidence that the hypothetical 'originals' (that all the rest seem copied from) were very probably drawn in something akin to the modern Mercator projection. Hapgood believed at one stage the projections were altered to fit the geometry of around the time of Eratosthenes, interestingly the same mistakes being repeated on them.

Hapgood himself admitted that it is predominantly surmise and conjecture. But the way he goes about it and the manner in the way he expounds his ideas are intriguing and do seem tantalisingly plausible.

Unfortunately the book was published around the time of crank city, whose denizens quoted Hapgood regularly to support their various cranky theories. So he was never really taken seriously.

Ubuntu isn't Swahili for 'can't install Debian'.
Kirill Vorobyov
Posted: Tuesday, October 29, 2019 10:27:38 AM

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Many thanks for sharing this, RSoul!

I am in no position to verify the evidence presented in the book, but the idea itself seems neither fantastic nor even unlikely to me. I think it is quite reasonable.

If the evidence is credible, my working hypothesis would be that the previous civilization may have existed in the previous inter-glacial period, approximately 100 000 years ago. It may have reached a high level of development, but apparently failed to cope with the climate change that followed... the global cooling, mind you! It may have left traces of knowledge though.

I guess critics would say that had such a civilization existed, by now we would have discovered remains of it. To that I have no answer except that the 100000 years of glacier may have destroyed the vast majority of potential evidence, and what has remained may be being interpreted wrongly because of the mainstream view that the civilization on this planet has existed only for the last few thousand years. What I think they perhaps don't give enough thought to is - how does this inter-glacial period (i.e. relative warming) differ from previous ones, that have been numerous? If there's a civilization now, then why on Earth there couldn't have been ones before.
Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Thursday, October 31, 2019 11:18:02 PM

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I was aware of the Piri Reis map back in 1966 - I read von Daniken's books. The first couple of books seemed "maybe possible", but he seemed to develop from that to "wild imagination".
The 'evidence' he gave required a lot of interpretation to come up with the ideas he developed later.

There were obvious points - the maps were (and still are) quite amazing in detail for the sixteenth century.

However, I did not know of the 1531 map including Antarctica. I only heard about that in the 1990s.
Now, that one is definitely a mystery. It cannot be doubted that it shows detail which has been hidden under ice for many centuries.
Even modern technology (modern in the 1960s) had not spotted the rift-valley which almost makes Antarctica two islands - it was not found until the 1980s using ground-penetrating radar and seismic imaging.

I haven't read Hapgood's book but if he is as objective all the way through as in the excerpts I've seen, it will be an interesting read.

Thanks for the links.

This map is a 1966 map superimposed on the 1531 map.
You can see how the shelf-ice disguised the detail. The sixteenth-century map is really closer to the truth than the 1966 map.



Wyrd bið ful aræd - bull!
Kirill Vorobyov
Posted: Friday, November 1, 2019 5:40:54 AM

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Wow, but this is absolutely amazing, if true.

The only thing that makes me somewhat cautious is that you say you've learnt about this 1531 Antarctica map in 1990s. By 1990s this information had already been obtained (I mean by "our", i.e. present civilization scientists :)), so the "1531 map" could have been forged by 1990s.

It would be much more convincing if the 1531 Antarctica map had been found before the corresponding information was obtained by our modern-era chartographers. That would be really something to think about very seriously.
Kirill Vorobyov
Posted: Friday, November 1, 2019 7:35:16 AM

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Drago,

Oops, I just realized that by "1531 Antarctica map" you mean the same Peri Re'is map. Is this correct?

Then from pictures I see it is not that conclusive. It is not clear I understand that the Peri Re'is map does have Antarctica...

Sorry for misunderstanding, I thought yuo were referring to something else (some different newly discovered map).
Kirill Vorobyov
Posted: Friday, November 1, 2019 8:08:20 AM

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Or maybe you refer to the Oronteus Phinaeus map. Again, what I see on Internet is rather vague in terms of being able to establish authenticity of this map. Where and when was it discovered? By whom? They say it's in the Library of Congress. How did it get there? I haven't been able to find answers yet.
Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Wednesday, November 6, 2019 4:22:40 AM

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You're right - the Piri Rei map is dubious.
It's compiled from earlier (unknown) maps, and the southern part is vague (as is normal with maps centred on 'civilised areas').

It's the Oronteus Phinaeus map which I didn't know of till later.

"The Orontius Finaeus map was found in 1960 by Charles Hapgood and . . . apparently shows the continent of Antarctica along with the accurate outlines of Antarctic rivers that are now covered by thick glaciers. The map was found in the Library of Congress in Washington DC where it had been sitting unstudied for a great many years. In the map the continent and coastline is shown to be ice free and, like the Piri Reis map, it too shows an accurate depiction of the Ross Sea which today is totally hidden beneath a floating ice shelf several hundred meters thick." (my underline)

That's this one - centred around the poles.
As far as I can understand, this is also a compilation of earlier maps - the scales of various parts of the map are different.



Wyrd bið ful aræd - bull!
Kirill Vorobyov
Posted: Wednesday, November 6, 2019 5:18:29 AM

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Thanks, Drago!

Well, it is still not clear when and how this map got to the Library of Congress, i.e. who and where found it, originally.

If it is genuine, then it is really a striking revelation! I wonder if anybody bothered to carry out an expert assessment of whether the dating of the map was accurate.
Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Monday, November 11, 2019 6:18:03 PM

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Ah well - dating it is easy - it's written at the bottom! Anno 1531.

You're right - nothing here has shown any authentication. Probably because it did not take any work to authenticate it.
A copy of the map was published in a book in 1531 and the book was not a new find.

There are also other maps - one in a book published in 1510 shows an accurate map of the Pacific coast of North America - years before Magellan managed to get there to map it. (and several other examples).

The original research by Hapgood was peer-checked by the director of the American Geographical Society and the maths done by a lecturer at Harvard.
The U.S. Air Force SAC cartographers worked with him for two years and fully endorsed his conclusions about Antarctica.

There is a whole bunch more data (both "evidence" and "doubts") in this article.

Wyrd bið ful aræd - bull!
Kirill Vorobyov
Posted: Tuesday, November 12, 2019 3:43:06 AM

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Yeah... Thanks a lot, Drago.

Speaking in Hapgood's own words, I am one of those amateurs who see nothing impossible in his theory. Angel It is not in line with the established view of the human history, but that's Okay, lots of established things seem to be shaking these days... If the mainstream line of thinking gets out of sync with facts, the only way is to think it afresh.





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