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The camel and the mouse Options
nightdream
Posted: Sunday, August 11, 2019 8:56:02 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 8/20/2015
Posts: 936
Neurons: 2,758
Please, enjoy reading.


Peoples who belong to the Mongol language family have their calendar since long ago. Every year of the twelve calendar years is called after a certain animal.

Once upon a time the mouse and the camel competed with each other to call the first of the twelve years after themselves.

They agreed that the one who saw the sunrise first would call the first year after himself. So, the next day the camel woke up very early and stood, looking in the direction of the sunrise. As to the mouse, he climbed onto the camel’s hump and sat, staring at the East.

The time of sunrise was near. Then rays of the sun lightened the pick of the mountain on the right of them. The mouse that was on the camel’s hump saw the light.

- I have seen the sunrise before you, I was higher than you! The first year will be called after me! – The mouse cried. Having deceived the camel in such a way, the mouse called the first of the twelve years after himself.

The camel became angry with the mouse and chased him. The mouse hid in the heap of ashes. Since that time a camel stirs up a heap of ashes, looking for a mouse.

None of the twelve years was called after the camel, but his exterior has twelve features: mouse’s ears, a cow’s belly, a tiger’s leg, a hare’s nose, a dragon’s exterior, snake’s eyes, a horse’s mane, a sheep’s fleece, a monkey’s hump, a cock’s crest, a dog’s thigh, a pig’s tail.


BobShilling
Posted: Sunday, August 11, 2019 9:41:14 AM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 4/1/2018
Posts: 1,421
Neurons: 7,621
Location: Beroun, Stredocesky, Czech Republic
If you want us to correct any mistakes in the language, then say so.

If you have just posted it for those of us who might be interested, then this is the wrong forum.

You have ignored everything I suggested when you asked about posting fok tales in another thread:


If you want to introduce us to these folk tales, then I suggest you post them in the Knowledge and Culture forum. It would be useful if you gave them helpful titles, such as Kalmyk Folk Tales 1. The Sparrow who Lays Golden Eggs.

If your main wish is for us to correct the language, then post them in the Grammar or Vocabulary forum. Once again, a useful title, such as Folk Tale #1: correction, please would be helpful. If you do this, please post them one at a time. Don't post any more until the one already posted has been fully dealt with.
nightdream
Posted: Sunday, August 11, 2019 9:59:36 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 8/20/2015
Posts: 936
Neurons: 2,758
I would be glad to read comments. I would like to inroduce readers and correct any mistakes if I have missed some of them at the same time.


BobShilling wrote:
If you want us to correct any mistakes in the language, then say so.

If you have just posted it for those of us who might be interested, then this is the wrong forum.

You have ignored everything I suggested when you asked about posting fok tales in another thread:


If you want to introduce us to these folk tales, then I suggest you post them in the Knowledge and Culture forum. It would be useful if you gave them helpful titles, such as Kalmyk Folk Tales 1. The Sparrow who Lays Golden Eggs.

If your main wish is for us to correct the language, then post them in the Grammar or Vocabulary forum. Once again, a useful title, such as Folk Tale #1: correction, please would be helpful. If you do this, please post them one at a time. Don't post any more until the one already posted has been fully dealt with.
nightdream
Posted: Sunday, August 11, 2019 4:25:00 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 8/20/2015
Posts: 936
Neurons: 2,758
I seem to have made a mistake with "Mongol", it should be "Mongolic" or "Mongolian" - am I right?


nightdream wrote:
Please, enjoy reading.


Peoples who belong to the Mongol language family have their calendar since long ago. Every year of the twelve calendar years is called after a certain animal.

Once upon a time the mouse and the camel competed with each other to call the first of the twelve years after themselves.

They agreed that the one who saw the sunrise first would call the first year after himself. So, the next day the camel woke up very early and stood, looking in the direction of the sunrise. As to the mouse, he climbed onto the camel’s hump and sat, staring at the East.

The time of sunrise was near. Then rays of the sun lightened the pick of the mountain on the right of them. The mouse that was on the camel’s hump saw the light.

- I have seen the sunrise before you, I was higher than you! The first year will be called after me! – The mouse cried. Having deceived the camel in such a way, the mouse called the first of the twelve years after himself.

The camel became angry with the mouse and chased him. The mouse hid in the heap of ashes. Since that time a camel stirs up a heap of ashes, looking for a mouse.

None of the twelve years was called after the camel, but his exterior has twelve features: mouse’s ears, a cow’s belly, a tiger’s leg, a hare’s nose, a dragon’s exterior, snake’s eyes, a horse’s mane, a sheep’s fleece, a monkey’s hump, a cock’s crest, a dog’s thigh, a pig’s tail.


BobShilling
Posted: Sunday, August 11, 2019 4:46:03 PM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 4/1/2018
Posts: 1,421
Neurons: 7,621
Location: Beroun, Stredocesky, Czech Republic
nightdream wrote:
I seem to make a mistake with "Mongol", it should be "Mongolic" or "Mongolian" - am I right?



Mongolian is one branch of the Mongolic language family.
nightdream
Posted: Sunday, August 11, 2019 8:18:41 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 8/20/2015
Posts: 936
Neurons: 2,758
I have found something odd: can people belong to a language family or can they just speak a certain language family?

And which word does fit more: "certain" or "definite" with "called after a certain/definite animal" and "every year" or "each year"?
Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Monday, August 12, 2019 3:28:21 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 9/12/2011
Posts: 33,174
Neurons: 208,218
Location: Livingston, Scotland, United Kingdom
nightdream wrote:
I have found something odd: can people belong to a language family or can they just speak a certain language family?

And which word does fit more: "certain" or "definite" with "called after a certain/definite animal" and "every year" or "each year"?

I will go through the rest of it shortly - but this sentence first.

can people belong to a language family or can they just speak a certain language family?
This attracted my attention before I saw the question - it does sound a little 'odd', though one might hear it in conversation (when the speakers are not planning their sentences, and not editing them).

People (or peoples) do not belong to a language-family.
The language belongs to a language family - the people belong to a race or tribe (in this case, I think "Mongol" is an "ethnic group" - a race and several sub-groups).

As far as I can see from this language-tree, Mongolian is one language (spoken in Mongolia).
Mongolian, Daur, Shirongolic, Mhogol and Khamnigan are all Mongolic languages.

(Another grammar point in the sentence is that "since" usually takes a perfect verb. "Have had" rather than "have",)

So (to be exact in the sentence) I'd say:
Peoples who belong tospeak languages in the Mongolic language family have had their calendar since long ago.

***************
And which word does fit more: "certain" or "definite" with "called after a certain/definite animal" and "every year" or "each year"?

The normal phrase is "a certain animal".

There are rules for "each" and "every" - which are not known or are ignored by a lot of 'native speakers'.

I'll try to find some more official article about it later, but as a basic rule "every" is usually used when you are talking about them all as a group; "each" is used when you're talking about them all as individuals.
Every boy and man in my family is called "Tom" as a second name, but each has an individual first name.

So I would say: "Each year of the twelve calendar years is called after a certain animal."
Romany
Posted: Monday, August 12, 2019 4:55:36 AM
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Joined: 6/14/2009
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Location: Brighton, England, United Kingdom
Drago -

Would you really say 'each year is CALLED after..."? ('So I would say: "Each year of the twelve calendar years is called after a certain animal." ') - or were you just limiting damage control?



Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Monday, August 12, 2019 8:28:19 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 9/12/2011
Posts: 33,174
Neurons: 208,218
Location: Livingston, Scotland, United Kingdom
Romany wrote:
Drago -
Would you really say 'each year is CALLED after..."? ('So I would say: "Each year of the twelve calendar years is called after a certain animal." ') - or were you just limiting damage control?

Well, I didn't actually notice it - but I'd say "named", not "called". You're right - it wasn't a point which "caught my eye" so strongly as the others, but "named after" is definitely the phrase.

"Each year of the twelve calendar years is named after a certain animal."
Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Monday, August 12, 2019 8:49:45 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 9/12/2011
Posts: 33,174
Neurons: 208,218
Location: Livingston, Scotland, United Kingdom
(Several shifted commas). This is not how I would write it, if I were the author, but I've left it as near to the original as I could.

Peoples who speak languages in the Mongolic language family have had their calendar since long ago.
Each year of the twelve calendar years is named after a certain animal.

Once upon a time the mouse and the camel competed with each other to name the first of the twelve years after themselves.

They agreed that the one who saw the sunrise first would name the first year after himself. So, the next day, the camel woke up very early and stood looking in the direction of the sunrise. As to the mouse, he climbed onto the camel’s hump and sat staring at the East.

The time of sunrise was near. Then rays of the sun lightened the pick peak of the mountain on the right of them. The mouse that was on the camel’s hump saw the light.

"I have seen the sunrise before you; I was higher than you! The first year will be called after me!" The mouse cried. Having deceived the camel in such a way, the mouse called the first of the twelve years after himself.

The camel became angry with the mouse and chased him. The mouse hid in the heap of ashes. Since that time a camel stirs up a heap of ashes, looking for a mouse.

None of the twelve years was called after the camel, but his exterior has twelve features: mouse’s ears, a cow’s belly, a tiger’s leg, a hare’s nose, a dragon’s exterior, snake’s eyes, a horse’s mane, a sheep’s fleece, a monkey’s hump, a cock’s crest, a dog’s thigh, a pig’s tail.


There are a couple of points I don't understand in the last paragraph - maybe it's cultural or maybe it's because of some translation point.

I've never heard of a monkey having a hump - it just sounds like a random phrase.

I don't understand the reference to a "dragon's exterior". Dragons' skin is scaly and very tough but camels are hairy.
Otherwise, there's nothing wrong with your translation (or the grammar).

Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Monday, August 12, 2019 10:05:48 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 9/12/2011
Posts: 33,174
Neurons: 208,218
Location: Livingston, Scotland, United Kingdom
This is the calendar from the Bulgar tribe (who owned the land from the Black Sea up to Karelia and between Moscow and Omsk) which is believed to be from about 7500 years ago - well before the similar Chinese calendar.

The whole thing was duodecimal - twelve years in a cycle, twelve parts in a year, twelve hours in a day and twelve in a night.

The first year was the year of the mouse as the story says – 1.Mouse, 2-cow/Ox, 3-tiger/wolf, 4-rabbit/hare, 5-dragon, 6-snake, 7-horse, 8-ram, 9-monkey, 10-rooster, 11-dog, 12-pig/boar).

nightdream
Posted: Monday, August 12, 2019 11:40:36 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 8/20/2015
Posts: 936
Neurons: 2,758

Thank you very much! You are a sunny person.


Drag0nspeaker wrote:
(Several shifted commas). This is not how I would write it, if I were the author, but I've left it as near to the original as I could.

Peoples who speak languages in the Mongolic language family have had their calendar since long ago.
Each year of the twelve calendar years is named after a certain animal.

Once upon a time the mouse and the camel competed with each other to name the first of the twelve years after themselves.

They agreed that the one who saw the sunrise first would name the first year after himself. So, the next day, the camel woke up very early and stood looking in the direction of the sunrise. As to the mouse, he climbed onto the camel’s hump and sat staring at the East.

The time of sunrise was near. Then rays of the sun lightened the pick peak of the mountain on the right of them. The mouse that was on the camel’s hump saw the light.

"I have seen the sunrise before you; I was higher than you! The first year will be called after me!" The mouse cried. Having deceived the camel in such a way, the mouse called the first of the twelve years after himself.

The camel became angry with the mouse and chased him. The mouse hid in the heap of ashes. Since that time a camel stirs up a heap of ashes, looking for a mouse.

None of the twelve years was called after the camel, but his exterior has twelve features: mouse’s ears, a cow’s belly, a tiger’s leg, a hare’s nose, a dragon’s exterior, snake’s eyes, a horse’s mane, a sheep’s fleece, a monkey’s hump, a cock’s crest, a dog’s thigh, a pig’s tail.


There are a couple of points I don't understand in the last paragraph - maybe it's cultural or maybe it's because of some translation point.

I've never heard of a monkey having a hump - it just sounds like a random phrase.

I don't understand the reference to a "dragon's exterior". Dragons' skin is scaly and very tough but camels are hairy.
Otherwise, there's nothing wrong with your translation (or the grammar).

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