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If the end is nigh,... Options
rvw
Posted: Sunday, September 25, 2011 7:51:13 PM
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It seems to me that it is not at all certain that we will get to some other habitable world before our sun expands into a red giant and destroys all life here. (That event may be some five billion years in the future.)

Before that happens, there is some probability that the earth will be struck by a catastrophic asteroid.

Do those prospects have any bearing on how we should behave and on our aspirations?

Now there's no way you can prove that the universe makes sense, but there's just no fun in living in the universe if it doesn't make sense... -- Asimov
HWNN1961
Posted: Sunday, September 25, 2011 9:21:53 PM

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Yes:

If we remain true to who we are, we'll conquer barriers previously thought impenetrable:

The first humans out of Africa,
Across the land bridge of Beringia to North America,
On rafts to Australia,
In narrow keeled longboats from Scandinavia to Iceland, Greenland, and "Vinland",
To the moon,
and ultimately to the stars.

We are essentially naked apes: we don't run fast: we see poorly in the dark, our other senese are similarly dull, we lack sharp teeth, claws, bone-crushing power.

And yet,

We live in all extremes: the arctic, the Sahara, mountains and in all other climes.

Mankind, if he and she remains true to the mold that the Creator set us in,

will cross the cosmos, and defy the doom of the dinosaurs.

"Be without fear in the face of your enemies. Be brave and upright that God may love thee. Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death. Safeguard the helpless, and do no wrong". (Knight's Oath, Kingdom of Heaven)
GeorgeV
Posted: Monday, September 26, 2011 1:22:42 AM

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But the oceans are rising and the suicide bombers proliferating. Which will cause greater upheaval long before the asteroid strike? - that is the question asked in every hamlet, town and Weltstadt.

Brain-washing starts in the cradle. - Arthur Koestler
srirr
Posted: Monday, September 26, 2011 3:05:35 AM

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I'll talk to you in 2013.


We are responsible for what we are, and whatever we wish ourselves to be, we have the power to make ourselves. ~ Swami Vivekanand
intelfam
Posted: Monday, September 26, 2011 5:52:56 AM

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GeorgeV wrote:
But the oceans are rising and the suicide bombers proliferating. Which will cause greater upheaval long before the asteroid strike? - that is the question asked in every hamlet, town and Weltstadt.


Yup, GeorgeV I reckon we will see some pretty awful stuff (and maybe, just maybe, some brilliant bits) before we have to worry about the sun. My thoughts are on global epidemics and water wars beating the death toll of suicide bombers....

"The voice of the majority is no proof of justice." - Schiller
rvw
Posted: Monday, September 26, 2011 8:01:26 AM
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Location: Woodstock, Georgia, United States
HWNN1961 wrote:
Yes:

If we remain true to who we are, we'll conquer barriers previously thought impenetrable:

The first humans out of Africa,
Across the land bridge of Beringia to North America,
On rafts to Australia,
In narrow keeled longboats from Scandinavia to Iceland, Greenland, and "Vinland",
To the moon,
and ultimately to the stars.



Nicely said. And I hope that is how things turn out.

But suppose we run out of time. For example, suppose tomorrow it is discovered that a huge black hole will destroy the earth in two years. What, if anything, should we do differently?

Now there's no way you can prove that the universe makes sense, but there's just no fun in living in the universe if it doesn't make sense... -- Asimov
Jyrkkä Jätkä
Posted: Monday, September 26, 2011 5:29:38 PM

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rvw wrote:

But suppose we run out of time. For example, suppose tomorrow it is discovered that a huge black hole will destroy the earth in two years. What, if anything, should we do differently?


We could try to sacrifice all our pens and pencils, umbrellas, car keys, matchboxes and lighters, mobile phones, left foot socks, and network printouts; and send them into the black hole to make a blockage.


I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.
jacobusmaximus
Posted: Tuesday, September 27, 2011 2:59:54 AM

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'But suppose we run out of time. For example, suppose tomorrow it is discovered that a huge black hole will destroy the earth in two years. What, if anything, should we do differently?' - rvw,

No more weeding, shaving, ironing, dieting, shopping with the wife. Come on black hole!
intelfam
Posted: Tuesday, September 27, 2011 5:48:02 AM

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Jyrkkä Jätkä wrote:
rvw wrote:

But suppose we run out of time. For example, suppose tomorrow it is discovered that a huge black hole will destroy the earth in two years. What, if anything, should we do differently?


We could try to sacrifice all our pens and pencils, umbrellas, car keys, matchboxes and lighters, mobile phones, left foot socks, and network printouts; and send them into the black hole to make a blockage.


LEFT sock? All my left socks have been sacrificed already to the greedy god of the washing machine (where do they go?) I am doomed....



"The voice of the majority is no proof of justice." - Schiller
almostfreebird
Posted: Tuesday, September 27, 2011 6:07:01 AM

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As an optimistic idea, I tend to follow Arthur C. Clarke's Childhood's End.

Advanced(mutant) babies will survive.


Geeman
Posted: Tuesday, September 27, 2011 5:59:04 PM

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rvw wrote:
It seems to me that it is not at all certain that we will get to some other habitable world before our sun expands into a red giant and destroys all life here. (That event may be some five billion years in the future.)

Before that happens, there is some probability that the earth will be struck by a catastrophic asteroid.

Do those prospects have any bearing on how we should behave and on our aspirations?

The timeline for the sun enveloping the Earth or the liklihood of a civilization-ending strike is pretty much longer than human history. It could happen tomorrow, but we have to go back into the fossil record to find a great extinction. It might not take a strike of that magnitude to set civilization back a long way, but I don't think something that didn't actually result in a mass extinction would end humanity.

Given the pace of technological advance, we may be able to settle the solar system in under 1,000 years. It may not be with beings that look very much like the hairless, bipedal apes we call humans in their current shape, but they'd still likely have a very similar genetic basis: thin, spidery hairless apes on the low gravity moons, water breathing apes (gills or mechanically/surgically altered) in the underice seas of (maybe) Europa, or possibly just cybernetically enhanced brain tissues kept in near 0-G environments dug into asteroids that monitor all communication in the system.... Permanent human habitation being the point.

So, to me it means we should try to get off the planet, settle the solar system and push on to the stars. But that was kind of the plan anyway, right?

Of course, there's the possibility that we'll destroy ourselves long before a meteor or the sun get a chance. That's a whole different issue....
rvw
Posted: Tuesday, September 27, 2011 7:00:07 PM
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Location: Woodstock, Georgia, United States
Quote:
Jyrkkä Jätkä wrote:
We could try to sacrifice all our pens and pencils, umbrellas, car keys, matchboxes and lighters, mobile phones, left foot socks, and network printouts; and send them into the black hole to make a blockage.

The problem with black holes is that the more mass they swallow, the more power they have to attract more mass to swallow (... as if increase of appetite had grown by what it fed on).

Now there's no way you can prove that the universe makes sense, but there's just no fun in living in the universe if it doesn't make sense... -- Asimov
rvw
Posted: Thursday, September 29, 2011 8:16:41 AM
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Geeman wrote:
[quote=rvw]
Given the pace of technological advance, we may be able to settle the solar system in under 1,000 years. It may not be with beings that look very much like the hairless, bipedal apes we call humans in their current shape, but they'd still likely have a very similar genetic basis: thin, spidery hairless apes on the low gravity moons, water breathing apes (gills or mechanically/surgically altered) in the underice seas of (maybe) Europa, or possibly just cybernetically enhanced brain tissues kept in near 0-G environments dug into asteroids that monitor all communication in the system.... Permanent human habitation being the point.

So, to me it means we should try to get off the planet, settle the solar system and push on to the stars. But that was kind of the plan anyway, right?

Of course, there's the possibility that we'll destroy ourselves long before a meteor or the sun get a chance. That's a whole different issue....


While we are redesigning homo sapiens, what do we keep, what do we throw away, and what do we add?

Now there's no way you can prove that the universe makes sense, but there's just no fun in living in the universe if it doesn't make sense... -- Asimov
Geeman
Posted: Thursday, September 29, 2011 5:53:10 PM

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rvw wrote:
While we are redesigning homo sapiens, what do we keep, what do we throw away, and what do we add?

Interesting question.

It freaks people out now, but I imagine we'll start redesigning long before we actually settle the whole solar system, so by the time we need to engineer low gravity humans we'll be pretty comfortable with the technology. Human engineering is going to get serious in about 25-40 years with prototypes appearing in around 15-25. At first, it'll be simple, "good" things like removing a genetic predisposition for heart disease or various cancers, and adding genes that make people resistant to the same sorts of problems will appear around the same time.

Then we're going to start adding stuff. Specifying height ranges seems pretty likely. Genes that give someone a predisposition to stay thin will almost surely happen. Adding IQ points seems inevitable.

When it comes to actually having people live off-world, though, we're going to come up with all kinds of weird changes eventually, but to start off with I imagine things that will make humans more survivable. Radiation resistence seems to be an important requirement, and there's some evidence to suggest we could have a genetic component for that.

We might also breed genderless humans due to the vagaries of sexual reproduction in high radiactivity, low population environments. I doubt that one, personally, but somebody is probably considering it.

Low light vision will probably be a requirement the further we get from the sun. The ability to exist at lower temperatures will be similarly important. The ability to enter into hybernation might be induced by technology, but it seems to me that a genetic manipulation could still do something similar without requiring the ability to unfreeze a person. Some sort of low-energy consumption "night-time" torpor that is based on the hybernation of terrestrial animals seems practical.

Lungs are an issue for those who want to live in space. I imagine a genetically engineered algae that survives inside a genetically engineered, low-metabolism human's chest cavity producing O2 might let that human survive for hours without taking a breath. Similarly, food processing might be expanded to include things not normally considered part of the human (or even mammalian) diet.

Eventually, I suspect humans will be engineered in such a way as to grow into the technology around them. That is, with no arms or legs, but a purpose-grown nervous system that directly operates equipment, uses sensors on that equipment as input, etc.

Either that or the robots will kill us all off first, and then THEY will settle the solar system (and then the stars) in our stead.
jmacann
Posted: Thursday, September 29, 2011 7:08:26 PM
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Quite unattainable, as cells invariably tend to break down when coming back to life.
FounDit
Posted: Thursday, September 29, 2011 10:02:07 PM

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Geeman wrote:
rvw wrote:
While we are redesigning homo sapiens, what do we keep, what do we throw away, and what do we add?

Interesting question.

It freaks people out now, but I imagine we'll start redesigning long before we actually settle the whole solar system,...


It was strange. As I began to read that sentence, "It freaks people out now,..." I was having exactly the same words pass through my mind until the word "long".

My sentence read, "If freaks people out now, but I imagine we'll start redesigning long before we have the good sense to know how to do it right."

Actually, I think we will merge the body with electronics to such a degree we will become bionic. At that point, we'll have no problem populating the solar system, if we don't exterminate ourselves first through stupidity. I call it 50-50 at best.

Ain't I a ray of sunshine?



A great many people will think they are thinking when they are merely rearranging their prejudices. ~ William James ~
rvw
Posted: Friday, September 30, 2011 7:52:25 AM
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How will we know when it's OK to redesign what we are? It seems to me that we are going to have the ability to fundamentally change what we are long before we understand what we are (to paraphrase FounDit).

We could change what we value without even realizing we are doing it. We could make a version of homo sapiens that is unmoved by a poem or a piece of music.(Or one that is unmoved by anything.)

We are a bull in a china shop. We are doing brain surgery with an ax.



Now there's no way you can prove that the universe makes sense, but there's just no fun in living in the universe if it doesn't make sense... -- Asimov
Taliesin ap Elphin
Posted: Tuesday, May 22, 2012 9:57:05 AM
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I'm a little lost by the mention of the asteroid. Are we talking about December 21, 2012, or some other date? Also, I highly doubt that at the rate we're going at now, the earth being destroyed would be a blessing. Anxious

"Unless someone cares a whole lot about something, nothing is going to change. It's not." - Dr. Seuss
almostfreebird
Posted: Tuesday, May 22, 2012 10:14:10 AM

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Nobody knows for sure.

Let's live for today.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vno9AcXqzt4




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