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lazarius
Posted: Friday, July 12, 2019 7:23:27 AM

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Location: Kotel’niki, Moskovskaya, Russia
Quote:
Whether it chanced that the climate was more kindly in old times, or the skill of those who tended the fields was greater, I do not know, but this at the least is true, that the hillside beneath which the house nestles, and which once was the bank of an arm of the sea or of a great broad, was a vineyard in Earl Bigod's days.

Haggard, Henry Rider. Montezuma's Daughter (p. 4). Kindle Edition.

What could it mean here?

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thar
Posted: Friday, July 12, 2019 8:08:04 AM

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a wetland - an area with lots of channels, lakes and islands, but all quite shallow, no more than a few feet deep. - ie a broad (wide) flat wet expanse.
probably from the Norfolk Broads (correctly "Broadland") rather than the word 'broad' by itself (except in this context).

The individual lakes are called broads in some cases, but the whole area is interlinked with channels, rather than it being individual lakes on a solid surface, and the whole area is the Broads.

broad
Quote:
(Britain) A shallow lake, one of a number of bodies of water in eastern Norfolk and Suffolk.













You ever hear of Swallows and Amazons, the books by Arthur Ransome? Some of them were set in the Norfolk Broads - a secret waterland where the kids could just get in a boat and disappear to do their own thing.


Sarrriesfan
Posted: Friday, July 12, 2019 8:16:40 AM

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Location: Luton, England, United Kingdom
lazarius wrote:
Quote:
Whether it chanced that the climate was more kindly in old times, or the skill of those who tended the fields was greater, I do not know, but this at the least is true, that the hillside beneath which the house nestles, and which once was the bank of an arm of the sea or of a great broad, was a vineyard in Earl Bigod's days.

Haggard, Henry Rider. Montezuma's Daughter (p. 4). Kindle Edition.

What could it mean here?

-


The English writer Henry Rider Haggard would be familiar with the area known as the Norfolk Broads in Norfolk, England.
These are a series of shallow lakes created when medieval peat cuttings were flooded by water.


They are now a National Park in the UK, popular for boating, fishing and spotting wildlife.
https://www.broads-authority.gov.uk/visiting

The area of that is now a vineyard was once on the bank a sea or a shallow lake .

I lack the imagination for a witty signature.
lazarius
Posted: Friday, July 12, 2019 8:45:58 AM

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Location: Kotel’niki, Moskovskaya, Russia
Yes it is there in Collins:

https://www.thefreedictionary.com/broad

Quote:
n
19. (Physical Geography) dialect Brit a river spreading over a lowland. See also Broads
20. (Physical Geography) dialect East Anglian a shallow lake

Collins English Dictionary – Complete and Unabridged, 12th Edition 2014

I shouldn't have contented myself with just an American dictionary. But now I know much more than there is in the dictionary. :)

Thank you very much!

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thar
Posted: Friday, July 12, 2019 8:58:58 AM

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Yes, broads are an East Anglian term but if you look at some of the larger lakes in that area they are called "_ Water" or "_ Mere" which are other terms for lakes used more widely in English. But those can be shallow or deep (in the case of the Lake District, some very deep). By the nature of their formation (as Sarries explained) broads are shallow - just flooded flatlands.

Quote:
The Broads:
The area is 303 square kilometres (117 sq mi), most of which is in Norfolk, with over 200 kilometres (120 mi) of navigable waterways. There are seven rivers and 63 broads, mostly less than 4 metres (13 ft) deep. Thirteen broads are generally open to navigation, with a further three having navigable channels.
lazarius
Posted: Friday, July 12, 2019 9:01:32 AM

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thar wrote:
You ever hear of Swallows and Amazons, the books by Arthur Ransome?

Haven't heard about him or his books. I will probably start with this:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07QG6QNRN/



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thar
Posted: Friday, July 12, 2019 3:14:41 PM

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That looks interesting, a perspective from an open mind just when things were changing.

His children's books are about having adventures away from adults, so he must have been a bit of a rebel. Whistle


swallows and amazons clip

It looks like they did a remake recently, but by the looks of it the boy in this version is years older (I suppose it is now not acceptable for younger children to be seen to be going off on their own - but it spoils the whole point of it being the free imagination of children.)

Also, I think it is played more for laughs. The 1970s film was actually quite scary in places ('scenes of peril' as they say in modern warnings, but mostly just very good atmospheric film-making!)
lazarius
Posted: Friday, July 12, 2019 3:27:40 PM

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That's children in the woods. :) The problem is that I do not understand what they are talking about. The only words I could recognize were Captain Flint. But that's from Treasure Island, by Stevenson.

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thar
Posted: Friday, July 12, 2019 3:30:37 PM

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Yes, they are playing at being pirates, so that is a reference to literature.


You might like the joke at the end.

I am Nancy Blackett. Captain and part-owner of the Amazon.
...
Her name isn't really Nancy, it's Ruth. But Uncle Jim says that Amazons are ruthless.


(edited)
Whistle


I didn't realise it had its own fanvids even now! Applause
This is some fan's setting of music set to clips from the film. This story isn't set in the Broads, it is the Lake District, which is steep fells, deep lakes and rocky islands.

swallows and amazons - perfect day

lazarius
Posted: Friday, July 12, 2019 3:34:48 PM

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thar wrote:
I am Nancy Blackett. Captain and part-owner of the Amazon.
...
Her name isn't really Nancy, it's Ruth. But Uncle Jim told us that pirates are ruthless.

There are two jokes here. I like the one about owning Amazon.

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thar
Posted: Friday, July 12, 2019 3:41:39 PM

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Ah, that isn't really a joke. The Amazon is the name of their boat.
This is Amazons, the female warriors from Greek mythology.
(the other boat is the Swallow).
lazarius
Posted: Friday, July 12, 2019 10:43:48 PM

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Location: Kotel’niki, Moskovskaya, Russia
thar wrote:
Ah, that isn't really a joke. The Amazon is the name of their boat.

I didn't know it was a boat but wouldn't think that the were talking about the company that didn't exist then. :)

thar wrote:
it is the Lake District, which is steep fells, deep lakes and rocky islands.

I recognized the word instantly though I only have come across it once in my life and it was about 10 years ago:

Quote:
The dwarves of yore made mighty spells
While hammers fell like ringing bells
In places deep where dark things sleep
In hollow halls beneath the fells

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thar
Posted: Saturday, July 13, 2019 3:22:04 AM

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You have fells in Northern England. The 'standard' English being Southern English, it is not as much used as it might be.

This is Old English / Viking country.
(you remember the Icelandic volcano everyone was cursing at a few years ago? Eyjafjallajökull - island (isolated) mountain glacier

Quote:
From Old Norse fell, fjall (“rock, mountain”), compare Norwegian Bokmål fjell 'mountain', from Proto-Germanic *felzą, *fel(e)zaz, *falisaz (compare German Felsen 'boulder, cliff', Middle Low German vels 'hill, mountain')


Quote:
Descendants
Danish: fjeld
English: fell
Faroese: fjall
Icelandic: fjall, fell
Norwegian Bokmål: fjell
Norwegian Nynorsk: fjell
Swedish: fjäll


Similarly, in the south of England there are hills and valleys, but in the north there are fells and dales.

(same root, but
> Anglo-Norman valey, Old French valee (compare French vallée)
> from Old English dæl. Cognate with Saterland Frisian Doal, Dutch dal, German Low German Daal, German Tal, Swedish dal, Danish dal, Norwegian dal, Icelandic dalur.[1])

Standard English really does miss out a lot of regional words. I think in the past they have been dismissed too much as 'dialect' and not 'proper English'.


So rather like broads, it is a regional term which refers to a certain type of hill, rather than hills in general.

The sport of racing over the hills is called fell running.



eg
fell (hill),
pike (peak),
nether (this is seen elsewhere as well, but more commonly places in the south are 'lower' not 'nether'),
mere (lake)
water (lake - cognate Norse -vatn)
beck (river - Middle English bek, from Old Norse bekkr (“a stream or brook”),),
thwaite (Middle English *thwait, a borrowing from Old Norse þveit (“paddock”).)
tarn ( small upland lake - from Middle English terne, tarne (“lake; pond, pool”),from Old Norse tjǫrn (“a small mountain lake without tributaries”))
Force - waterfall (From Old Norse fors (“waterfall”). Cognate with Swedish fors (“waterfall”); Icelandic 'foss')

This is less than 300 miles from London but it is a whole different dialect of English.





lazarius
Posted: Saturday, July 13, 2019 4:16:33 AM

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Location: Kotel’niki, Moskovskaya, Russia
thar wrote:
eg
-fell (hill),
pike (peak),
nether (this is seen elsewhere as well, but more commonly places in the south are 'lower' not 'nether'),
mere (lake)
water (lake - cognate Norse -vatn)
beck (river - Middle English bek, from Old Norse bekkr (“a stream or brook”),),
thwaite (Middle English *thwait, a borrowing from Old Norse þveit (“paddock”).)
tarn ( small upland lake - from Middle English terne, tarne (“lake; pond, pool”),from Old Norse tjǫrn (“a small mountain lake without tributaries”))

This is less than 300 miles from London but it is a whole different dialect of English.

Water (you introduced it yesterday), beck and thwaite are new words to me. Going to explore later today.

The others I know and I remember tarn in a story by Edgar Alan Poe:

Quote:
Perhaps the eye of a scrutinizing observer might have discovered a barely perceptible fissure, which, extending from the roof of the building in front, made its way down the wall in a zigzag direction, until it became lost in the sullen waters of the tarn.

Poe, Edgar Allan. The Tell-Tale Heart and Other Stories (AmazonClassics Edition) (p. 104). Amazon Classics. Kindle Edition.

And it is there in the Vocabulary.Com program:

https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/tarn

So it must be international, American at the least.

As of Scafell Pike I not only know the name but have used it in my own story that I wrote a year ago. Unfortunately Drag0nspeaker didn't like it :)

The fell part in Scafell Pike, is it what we are discussing now?

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thar
Posted: Saturday, July 13, 2019 4:22:14 AM

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Yes, to the best of my knowledge
- the whole edifice, the hill, is Sca Fell / Scafell


the peak, the summit, is Scafell Pike

there can be more than one named pike on a fell, just like you can have more than one peak on a mountain.
lazarius
Posted: Saturday, July 13, 2019 4:49:20 AM

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Thank you.

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