The Free Dictionary  
mailing list For webmasters
Welcome Guest Forum Search | Active Topics | Members

One of my favorite words is lox Options
leonAzul
Posted: Friday, June 7, 2019 6:04:44 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 8/11/2011
Posts: 8,560
Neurons: 29,065
Location: Miami, Florida, United States
The English Word That Hasn’t Changed in Sound or Meaning in 8,000 Years

Quote:
There is hardly a more quintessential New York food than a lox bagel—a century-old popular appetizing store, Russ & Daughters, calls it “The Classic.” But Guy, who has lived in the city for the past 17 years, is passionate about lox for a different reason. “The pronunciation in the Proto-Indo-European was probably ‘lox,’ and that’s exactly how it is pronounced in modern English,” he says. “Then, it meant salmon, and now it specifically means ‘smoked salmon.’ It’s really cool that that word hasn’t changed its pronunciation at all in 8,000 years and still refers to a particular fish.”




"Make it go away, Mrs Whatsit," he whispered. "Make it go away. It's evil."
Parpar1836
Posted: Friday, June 7, 2019 6:24:44 PM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 6/30/2014
Posts: 379
Neurons: 15,606
Location: Rochester, New York, United States
"Sack" is found in the Book of Genesis (the story of Joseph), so it's another ancient word that has retained its meaning and pronunciation.
L.Rai
Posted: Friday, June 7, 2019 11:05:17 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 7/20/2014
Posts: 717
Neurons: 1,313,375
Location: Grover Beach, California, United States
WOW how interesting, all I know is I'd kill for a good bagel with lox, cream cheese, tomato, onions and salty olives right about now.... Whistle

"Your life matters more than you will ever know, so live it well"
Epiphileon
Posted: Saturday, June 8, 2019 3:29:38 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 3/22/2009
Posts: 4,171
Neurons: 157,514
Thanks Leon that is pretty remarkable.

Question authority. How do you know, that you know, what you know?
thar
Posted: Saturday, June 8, 2019 4:22:55 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 7/8/2010
Posts: 20,058
Neurons: 81,057
I don't think it mentions this in the article, but forgive me if it does

but isn't this a re-entry into English? And only where Yiddish was present eg America.

PIE - Germanic - Old High German - Yiddish - English


The original Germanic meaning of salmon

Quote:

From Middle English lax, from Old English leax (“salmon”), from Proto-Germanic *lahsaz (“salmon”), from Proto-Indo-European *laḱs- (“salmon, trout”).

Cognate with Middle Dutch lacks, lachs, lasche (“salmon”), Middle Low German las (“salmon”), German Lachs (“salmon”), Norwegian laks (“salmon”), Danish laks (“salmon”), Swedish lax (“salmon”), Icelandic lax (“salmon”), Lithuanian lašišà (“salmon”), Latvian lasis, Russian лосо́сь (losósʹ, “salmon”), Albanian leshterik (“eel-grass”). See also lox.

Noun
lax (plural laxes)

(now chiefly Britain dialectal, Scotland) A salmon.


[It is the word in Scots because they spoke Northumbrian, an Anglo-Saxon dialect. Under Norman influence, the standard word in English became salmon, from the Norman French. (Like so many food words - farmed in English, eaten in French - (swine-porc, cows- beef, sheep - mutton).
But the Norman influence didn't reach Scotland, so they still use the original Old English word.]


But has changed, through Jewish culture, into the smoked food

Quote:
From Yiddish לאַקס‎ (laks, “salmon”), from Old High German lahs




Not knocking the article, but they focused on it being unchanged. I think there are lots of words that are pretty unchanged! The interesting part here, to me, is how it has changed [edit - in the last thousand years], and why - social, political and religious history that kept Jews together as a culture within a culture, and then drove them to America.


And in parts of England the Gaelic word survives in dialect, from before Anglo-Saxon leax, let alone Norman salmon.

eg
sprod

Quote:

Definition of 'sprod'

noun
Northern England and Scottish
a young salmon in its second year


Quote:

sprod
Compare Goidelic and Irish bradan (“a salmon”).

Noun
sprod (plural sprods)



Quote:
Scottish Gaelic
Etymology
From Old Irish bratán.

Pronunciation
IPA(key): /ˈbra.tən/
Hyphenation: bra‧dan
Noun
bradan m (genitive singular bradain, plural bradain)

salmon




So now you have English words for the fish
sprod (from Celtic)
lax (from Germanic)
Salmon (from Norman French)
and if you live in a city, the food
lox (from Yiddish)


Never heard of 'eghek' though! Cornish language is not spoken natively as a first language, but it might survive in dialect.

Quote:
salmon in Celtic languages
Irish: bradán
Scottish Gaelic: bradan; eo, iach (archaic)
Manx: braddan
Welsh: eog; samwn
Cornish: eghek
Breton: eog


Quote:
Welsh
Etymology
From Middle Welsh ehawc, from Proto-Brythonic *esāx (compare Cornish ehog, Breton eog), from Proto-Celtic *esoxs (compare Old Irish eó (gen. iach)).

Noun
eog m (plural eogiaid)

salmon
lazarius
Posted: Saturday, June 8, 2019 4:31:20 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 8/27/2016
Posts: 565
Neurons: 376,942
Location: Kotel’niki, Moskovskaya, Russia
thar wrote:
I don't think it mentions this in the article, but forgive me if it does

I have read it - there's nothing about it being a Yiddish word.

-

Не надо отчаиваться, товарищ.
Adyl Mouhei
Posted: Saturday, June 8, 2019 7:50:34 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 5/1/2017
Posts: 2,102
Neurons: 386,001
Location: Casablanca, Grand Casablanca, Morocco
leonAzul wrote:
The English Word That Hasn’t Changed in Sound or Meaning in 8,000 Years

Quote:
There is hardly a more quintessential New York food than a lox bagel—a century-old popular appetizing store, Russ & Daughters, calls it “The Classic.” But Guy, who has lived in the city for the past 17 years, is passionate about lox for a different reason. “The pronunciation in the Proto-Indo-European was probably ‘lox,’ and that’s exactly how it is pronounced in modern English,” he says. “Then, it meant salmon, and now it specifically means ‘smoked salmon.’ It’s really cool that that word hasn’t changed its pronunciation at all in 8,000 years and still refers to a particular fish.”


Jyrkkä Jätkä
Posted: Saturday, June 8, 2019 12:01:51 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 9/21/2009
Posts: 43,030
Neurons: 506,178
Location: Helsinki, Southern Finland Province, Finland
Thar,

In Finnish that fish is called lohi.


In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.
TL Hobs
Posted: Saturday, June 8, 2019 12:24:43 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 4/16/2009
Posts: 1,396
Neurons: 5,586
Location: Kenai, Alaska, United States
Lox may not be my favorite word, but it is my favorite way to eat salmon. In Alaska, we call it gravlax, assuming it is simply cured, not smoked. We call cured, smoked salmon Nova lox. I have access to 5 species of salmon: Chinook (also called King), Coho (Silver), Sockeye (Red), and Humpies (Pink), and Chum (Dog). For some reason, they all have two names. Most salmon are caught while spawning, but the best are taken in the winter while feasting. At that time, they are storing oil in their bodies to provide the energy needed during the spawn. They do not feed while in fresh water, so must be caught in the ocean.

To make gravlax, I baste the deboned fillet with a mixture of olive oil, lemon juice and cognac, then pack in a mixture of brown sugar, salt, cracked peppercorns and chopped, fresh dill weed. Wrap it up in cheese cloth, place in a glass dish and weight it down with another dish and several canned goods. I place it in the refrigerator for at least 4 days, or longer. To eat, I scrape off most of the dry mixture and thinly slice on a bias.

I make my own bagels, too. Usually in the New York style, but sometimes I make a Montreal or San Francisco style bagel. They are all good, as far as I am concerned. I serve them with a schmear of Marscapone, thin slice of tomato, red onion and capers.

Gravlax is also good on pizza, but that is another recipe.


"When you don't know where you are going, you have to stick together just in case someone gets there." - Ken Kesey
taurine
Posted: Saturday, June 8, 2019 12:35:24 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 4/20/2016
Posts: 1,431
Neurons: 105,457
Location: South Dublin, Ireland
Yesterday, by sheer coincidence, I have made several linguistics discoveries. This what follows in the next sentences, however funny it may be, can be read in the context of analysing the patterns of change that words undergo, moving from one language to another.

The Italian woman sitting behind the table asks a man who took seat opposite her: Sete? The man answers: Faje.
This rather innocent exchange of words between attractive woman and a man, if applying Polish language, means the following. The woman asks a man does he want a hundred cl of vodka. The man answers that he wants a pipe to smoke. If applying Albanian language to the meaning of a word spoke by a man, then this means a "trespass".







Jean-François Champollion has been forgotten again. It was not Thomas Young who played a key role in deciphering the Rosetta Stone.




Sas? Nic. Sassnitz. Rug, ja? Rugen. Telemark in Harzgerode.
thar
Posted: Saturday, June 8, 2019 6:34:34 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 7/8/2010
Posts: 20,058
Neurons: 81,057
Jyrkkä Jätkä wrote:
Thar,

In Finnish that fish is called lohi.


So that is a rare word that Finnish shares with its neghbours!

Quote:
From earlier *loši, borrowed from a Baltic language, compare Lithuanian lašiša, Latvian lasis.


And

Quote:
northern Sami
luossa

salmon


Surprised it is one root - I guess it is important enough to have to be able to talk about it!


In Icelandic the word is lax - that is extremely unusual in having an X in it. Hardly used except in a few family names, which are themselves anomalies in the patronymic system.


The Jewish smoked salmon, as eaten on New York bagels, as a foreign word would be written phonetically - "laks".

"Smoked" salmon is simply reyktur lax.
But I don't know if lox is birch-smoked - birkireyktur lax.

Salt-cured salmon is grafinn lax / graflax (> Swedish gravlax)
Grafa = to dig, scrape a hole - as in a grave to bury a body.
You bury the fish in the sand to cure it.










L.Rai
Posted: Sunday, June 9, 2019 1:52:36 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 7/20/2014
Posts: 717
Neurons: 1,313,375
Location: Grover Beach, California, United States
Dear TL Hobs:

If I only lived closer to you, I'd become your friend. Your Lox and Bagels make my mouth water....yum.

LRai

"Your life matters more than you will ever know, so live it well"
Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Monday, June 10, 2019 1:12:29 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 9/12/2011
Posts: 32,945
Neurons: 204,246
Location: Livingston, Scotland, United Kingdom

Don't they use LOX in rockets?

Wyrd bið ful aræd - bull!
Users browsing this topic
Guest


Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.

Main Forum RSS : RSS
Forum Terms and Guidelines | Privacy policy | Copyright © 2008-2019 Farlex, Inc. All rights reserved.