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Brexit solution? Options
Marek Guman
Posted: Wednesday, January 30, 2019 2:12:18 PM

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I know this may sound ridiculous or even heretic, but didn't it occur to any British politician to propose to let go Northern Ireland and solve the seemingly unsolvable problem with the Irish border? From where I live it seems like a rather logical solution. I don't know anything about pros and cons, that is just an idea. Your thoughts?
Ash_Lingua
Posted: Wednesday, January 30, 2019 3:01:17 PM

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While that may or may not be the obvious solution, remember that May is held hostage by the 10 DUP members with whom she shares power in a coalition government.

The DUP is a die-hard Unionist political party hell-bent on preventing any solution which sets Northern Ireland apart from the rest of Britain, in order to maintain their own political base at home. For that reason, they reject any solution that might put the border in the sea between Northern Ireland and the rest of Britain.

They would rather a return to the hard border between North and South and the real possibility of a return to the Troubles after 20 years of peace and peaceful co-existence between the British province of Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland in the South.

I live 40 kilometers from the border. We come and go freely. People from the North work here and people from here work in the North. We work, play, and socialize together. No one here wants the hard border back. No one I know in the North wants that either. Except, of course, those 10 old men in the DUP and the enclave they purport to represent.
Marek Guman
Posted: Wednesday, January 30, 2019 3:37:10 PM

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Thanks for explanation, Ash Lingua. I didn't hear about DUP.
My sister with brother-in-law live in Tallaght and I know they visit Belfast ZOO regularly, Giant's Causeway too, and always have some pounds in the purse.
They take for granted there is no border too.
So May is in a very difficult situation. I understand she has very little support in her own party.
Ash_Lingua
Posted: Thursday, January 31, 2019 10:34:00 AM

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I believe May's fundamental error was spending two years in long, complicated, intricate negotiation with the EU to arrive at a deal WITHOUT bringing Parliament in at every juncture. If she had done so, the deal would have been approved and agreed in whatever form it took. As it stands, she only brought the done deal to Parliament and then asked them to vote AGAINST it, and to force her to go back to Brussels to renegotiate when the EU has made completely clear they are unwilling to do so; especially given that Britain is making no alternative proposal regarding Ireland, and never has, not once.

May is choosing unity of the Tory party over the best interests of the British people, in making the likelihood of a no-deal crash out of the EU more and more likely. This will lead to chaos and economic damage which the Tories will blame on Europe and on Ireland in particular. We are already being made the scapegoat for their folly. The current levels of appalling poverty and lack of public service resulting from 10 years of a brutal Tory austerity campaign (which has gutted the national health service, education, transportation, public housing, policing, and local authority services) will be compounded, but the blame laid as always at someone else's door.
Marek Guman
Posted: Thursday, January 31, 2019 3:54:19 PM

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Thanks for the answer, Ash Lingua. That's too bad. I am reading Timothy Snyder's The Road to unfreedom, there are interesting facts (not speculations) about Russian involvement in the whole Brexit thing in the book.
Sarrriesfan
Posted: Thursday, January 31, 2019 7:16:16 PM

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It might also be worth noting that the Tories official party name is the Conservative and Unionist Party, they too have a commitment to keeping the United Kingdom as one intergrated whole.

Another mistake May made was in triggering Article 50 as quickly as she did without prioer debate in Parliment first, rather than trying to force things through now. It could have been possible for many issued to have been agreed upon here before hand and then started the negotiations with the EU.

But for political reasons it was triggered when it was in the hope that people would say it's a done deal we'll have to get on with it now, which has not happened.

But I am one of ten 48% who voted remain and wish this whole thing was nit happening at all.

That's another problem for May people from the outside sometimes seem to think that everyone wants Brexit and that everyone that wants Brexit wants the same thing. There are those that wish to remain, those that want a soft Brexit, Canada Plus, a Norwegian style deal, a Hard Brexit and many other shades between. She has t try to steer a path between all of them something that has not worked. Losinher majority and having to rely on the DUP did not help.

I lack the imagination for a witty signature.
Hope123
Posted: Friday, February 1, 2019 9:18:31 AM

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Why don't they do another referendum? They know the first one was influenced by outside forces and also the proponents of Brexit were less than truthful. They could find out how the majority of people feel now that they have more facts as to what will happen.

If May had been given a vote of non confidence, would it have been easier to redo the referendum?

"Do the people you care about love you back?" Warren Buffett's measure of success
Marek Guman
Posted: Monday, February 4, 2019 4:50:23 AM

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I really thought there would be efforts to repeat the referendum, at least maybe until December.
But it seems a hard brexit is what is going to happen, and some previously unimagined things are considered.


Hard Brexiters say only acceptable way forward is to remove backstop.
Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Monday, February 4, 2019 6:10:47 AM

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Hope123 wrote:
Why don't they do another referendum? They know the first one was influenced by outside forces and also the proponents of Brexit were less than truthful. They could find out how the majority of people feel now that they have more facts as to what will happen.

If May had been given a vote of non confidence, would it have been easier to redo the referendum?


I don't know what you've heard over there - but the lies, mis-quotes, fiddled statistics were just as bad, if not worse from the Remain team. And they had the backing of almost every news agency (including the BBC, which was supposed to be neutral, but was far from it.
No - 48% with all the propaganda they had . . .

We don't have more facts - we just have more propaganda.
Part of the reason some of the politicians are blocking everything, and making it so slow and arduous is to make it SEEM like leaving is bad, in the hope that people will start asking for a new referendum, in which they may scrape 50.5%.

Both sides have been ridiculous in their attempts to mislead and influence public opinion - some of the lies have been so blatant (from both 'parties') it was difficult to see how anyone could believe them.

Would YOU want Canada to stay in a free-trade agreement with the USA when the USA and a few Canadian politicians were slowly and quietly altering the agreement year by year so that in ten years Canada would be the 52nd State?

Wyrd bið ful aræd - bull!
Hope123
Posted: Monday, February 4, 2019 5:36:18 PM

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Hi Drago.

I don't know enough about it - that's why I asked, so thanks for answering my query when you are a citizen who is affected.

I understand that there were lies etc. on both sides, but to me that is all the more reason to have a referendum when the facts are known by all.

One of those facts should be that the agreement is being altered quietly.

It is too bad that there is so much propaganda without facts and that the process is being made more difficult on purpose.


"Do the people you care about love you back?" Warren Buffett's measure of success
Sarrriesfan
Posted: Monday, February 4, 2019 6:49:56 PM

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Hope123 wrote:
Hi Drago.

I don't know enough about it - that's why I asked, so thanks for answering my query when you are a citizen who is affected.

I understand that there were lies etc. on both sides, but to me that is all the more reason to have a referendum when the facts are known by all.

One of those facts should be that the agreement is being altered quietly.

It is too bad that there is so much propaganda without facts and that the process is being made more difficult on purpose.


There was the original 1975 referendum on memebershio of the European Communities (Common Market), that was last time before 2016 that the British public was consulted on the various changes to relationship with the rest of Europe.

So that means until 2016 I had never had a vote on the matter. Even though I was in my mid-40s.

But there had been various changes made to the treaties as they were originally signed, the formation of the E.E.C. and then the European Union, freedom of trade and freedom of movement of citizens, the addition of many other countries etc.. Other countries in Europe held votes a various stages to see if their citizens agreed with these but our country did not.

This meant that for many people we were taken from a trade agreement towards a burgeoning federal superstate without any say in the matter as Drago suggests.

I lack the imagination for a witty signature.
Hope123
Posted: Monday, February 4, 2019 10:36:20 PM

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Not communicating in a relationship, even that of leaders and their constituents, is always a problem.

"Do the people you care about love you back?" Warren Buffett's measure of success
Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Tuesday, February 5, 2019 6:19:59 AM

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Hope123 wrote:
Not communicating in a relationship, even that of leaders and their constituents, is always a problem.

Yes, you're right.

I think (if my memory serves me) that just before Maasticht (the treaty in 1991/1992, which was the major turning point from trade agreement to political national union), there was a general election in the UK.
However, EU was hardly mentioned - both major parties ignored or whitewashed it completely.
I only heard of the Maastricht agreement (which happened in December 1991) by accident from an American friend who was interested in European modern history. It was to be ratified and signed as the Maastricht Treaty a bit later in 1992.
The government hardly mentioned it before the elections (and there was a lot less 'direct communication' via internet and social media than there is now).

That's what I meant by "quietly" - perhaps I should have said "on the quiet". Whistle


Wyrd bið ful aræd - bull!
Hope123
Posted: Tuesday, February 5, 2019 8:36:36 AM

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Drago,

I knew what you meant! Happens all the time. That's why real investigative journalists are so important to keep governments accountable.They are necessary to democracy. And yet the media can sway public opinion so easily by what they choose to report, even help get someone elected.

Canada's conservative opposition have started attacking our media learning from Trump. CBC is reporting what Cons are saying without pointing out the falsehoods and propaganda. A couple of years ago I had hoped the ill wind would not spread north, but it did, as usual.

And journalists are being murdered all over the world to stop the public from learning the inconvenient truths.

"Do the people you care about love you back?" Warren Buffett's measure of success
towan52
Posted: Tuesday, February 5, 2019 10:01:20 AM

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It seems to me, as an expat who voted for Brexit, that the misinformation put out by both sides is largely irrelevant now. Such reporting as I've seen suggests that the UK is being held in a "cleft stick, over a barrel" by the EU; making an orderly and fair withdrawal seemingly impossible. In the runup to the referendum I don't believe that the scale of the pushback from the rest of the EU and its leaders was discussed and clearly not accurately anticipated.

Personally, I would not be averse to another "frundumb" now that the position of the EU leaders has become clear. In fact, I would probably welcome a cancellation of Brexit, remain in the EU and try to change it from within. The UK could use the French method of accepting the EU rules and regulations that suit them, but ignoring the rest (including non-compliance fines). Did the UK ever receive its compensation from the French government over their refusal to buy diseased British beef?

The issues that bother so many British folks are probably not unique to the UK so, alliance with other like-minded members may get more favourable conditions. Like any political institution, though, the EU will use any means to keep its power and influence regardless of the greater good. Politicians exist to stay in power!

“God created war so that Americans would learn geography.” ~ Samuel Langhorne Clemens
progpen
Posted: Friday, February 8, 2019 3:37:11 AM

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One thing I've noticed since arriving here is that there are quite a few in Scotland who were initially against Brexit, but are now supporting it because they see it as clearing the path to a 2nd independence referendum. Any way you slice it, Brexit has become a very complex issue.

Edit: If the 2nd referendum passed, the idea is that Scotland would then rejoin the EU.

Nolite te bastardes carborundorum
progpen
Posted: Saturday, February 9, 2019 1:19:05 PM

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Ash_Lingua wrote:
The DUP is a die-hard Unionist political party hell-bent on preventing any solution which sets Northern Ireland apart from the rest of Britain, in order to maintain their own political base at home. For that reason, they reject any solution that might put the border in the sea between Northern Ireland and the rest of Britain.


This backstop is one thing that could still kill Brexit because it is something that neither Brussels nor Westminster will move on.

Nolite te bastardes carborundorum
progpen
Posted: Saturday, March 2, 2019 8:53:14 AM

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One other side effect of Brexit.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-47426138
UK-US trade deal: Envoy attacks 'myths' about US farming

The EU has limited the food that the US can import, but it seems that Brexit has given the US hope that the UK will allow the relatively unregulated food products into the country.



Nolite te bastardes carborundorum
Hope123
Posted: Saturday, March 2, 2019 10:47:15 AM

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progpen wrote:
One other side effect of Brexit.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-47426138
UK-US trade deal: Envoy attacks 'myths' about US farming

The EU has limited the food that the US can import, but it seems that Brexit has given the US hope that the UK will allow the relatively unregulated food products into the country.



Hi Proggy,

Do you mean that the US can ex- port?

The UK and EU have much higher standards in the number of chemicals allowed in food than the US and Canada. I buy from the farmer as much as possible or from a supermarket that carries the meat from the farm I know.

Even Costco is carrying certified organic chicken that has no antibiotics, or animal byproducts, that is fed organic grain, and is air chilled. Organic standards also call for free range unless inclement weather.

All chicken can be contaminated but cooking kills the microbes. No need to use chlorine.

"Do the people you care about love you back?" Warren Buffett's measure of success
Sarrriesfan
Posted: Saturday, March 2, 2019 12:44:05 PM

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Hope123 wrote:
progpen wrote:
One other side effect of Brexit.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-47426138
UK-US trade deal: Envoy attacks 'myths' about US farming

The EU has limited the food that the US can import, but it seems that Brexit has given the US hope that the UK will allow the relatively unregulated food products into the country.



Hi Proggy,

Do you mean that the US can ex- port?

The UK and EU have much higher standards in the number of chemicals allowed in food than the US and Canada. I buy from the farmer as much as possible or from a supermarket that carries the meat from the farm I know.

Even Costco is carrying certified organic chicken that has no antibiotics, or animal byproducts, that is fed organic grain, and is air chilled. Organic standards also call for free range unless inclement weather.

All chicken can be contaminated but cooking kills the microbes. No need to use chlorine.


The US Ambassador has suggested it, it went down like a lead ballon over here.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/mar/02/us-ambassador-to-uk-woody-johnson-under-fire-over-defence-of-chlorinated-chicken-post-brexit-jay-rayner

Quote:
A Downing Street spokeswoman insisted: “We have always been very clear that we will not lower our food standards as part of a future trading agreement


Even if the Government did allow its import the public might not buy it.
For example Dasani water is very popular in the US and is created by treating ordinary water , here it was laughed off the shelves.


I lack the imagination for a witty signature.
progpen
Posted: Saturday, March 2, 2019 2:53:23 PM

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Hope123 wrote:

Hi Proggy,

Do you mean that the US can ex- port?


Sorry, yes. I knew what I wanted to say, but my fingers apparently wanted to say something else.


Yes, the reaction in the UK and here in Scotland has been pretty interesting. I find it interesting that I wasn't aware of how much the EU restricts what the US can send over until I arrived in the UK. Censorship anyone?

Nolite te bastardes carborundorum
Hope123
Posted: Saturday, March 2, 2019 10:07:05 PM

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Proggy,

If it is censorship it is a good idea. Countries have to negotiate treaties that let them remain boss over themselves and their way of life.

Chlorine is awful stuff to put on food. And more hormones in our food is just what we need so we can get fatter and contract more cancer and other preventable diseases. And we all know where too many antibiotics is leading.

"Do the people you care about love you back?" Warren Buffett's measure of success
progpen
Posted: Sunday, March 3, 2019 7:23:24 AM

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https://www.theregister.co.uk/2019/02/28/brexit_border_it_systems/
Here's a look at Brexit from an IT perspective.

Six of the eight border IT systems viewed as critical for a no-deal Brexit are at risk of failure, compounded by their reliance on each other and the fact delivery partners aren't ready.

The latest damning assessment* of the UK's preparedness for a sudden no-deal departure from the European Union comes from the National Audit Office (NAO), in a report (PDF) sent to the Public Accounts Committee.


The NAO said that six of the eight IT systems ranked as most critical for no deal by the cross-government Border Delivery Group are "at risk of not being delivered to time and to acceptable quality".

These include Defra's Import of Products, Animals, Food and Feed System (IPAFFS) and Automatic Licence Verification System (ALVS), both of which have their IT components listed as amber-red, and HMRC's CHIEF (Customs Handling of Import and Export Freight), which is ranked as amber.


Nolite te bastardes carborundorum
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