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A cooperator
Posted: Saturday, January 12, 2019 11:03:42 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 10/27/2011
Posts: 3,298
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Location: Ḩāḑírah, Hadramawt, Yemen
Hi Everyone!
I feel as "account" is used here in the two examples below as "calculate".

Your service provider may account for data usage differently.
Carrier data accounting may differ from your device.

However, I had looked the word "account" up in a dictionary, but I didn't find a definition as "calculate". I only found the followings:
1. To explain or do give a reason for sth
2. To supply the amount that is mentioned


Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
thar
Posted: Saturday, January 12, 2019 11:27:55 AM

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The two meanings, of keeping a record and counting, are linked together deep in linguistic history.


eg
count
recount
account

to count is notice how many there are of something
to recount is to tell a story
an account is when you tell someone what happened.
an accountant deals with money
accounting is the action of recording what happens to the money

to tell is to relate a story
a bank teller deals with the money (ATM - automated teller machine)


To account for something is to know how many you have, or what happened to them.

Quote:
account for
phrasal verb of account
1.
give a satisfactory record of (something, typically money, that one is responsible for).
"I had to account for every penny I spent"
A cooperator
Posted: Saturday, January 12, 2019 12:08:57 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 10/27/2011
Posts: 3,298
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Location: Ḩāḑírah, Hadramawt, Yemen
thar wrote:
The two meanings, of keeping a record and counting, are linked together deep in linguistic history.


eg
count
recount
account

to count is notice how many there are of something
to recount is to tell a story
an account is when you tell someone what happened.
an accountant deals with money
accounting is the action of recording what happens to the money


Quote:
account for
phrasal verb of account
1.
give a satisfactory record of (something, typically money, that one is responsible for).
"I had to account for every penny I spent"


Thanks a lot,
Then "account for" in my examples below doesn't have the meaning of "explain or give a reason for something, nor to supply the amount that is mentiond".
However, "account for" has the meaning "count" /"calculate". So, they can replace "account for".
Your service provider may account for/calculate/count data usage differently.
Carrier data accounting/calculating/counting may differ from your device.

Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
Ana Gonzales
Posted: Sunday, January 13, 2019 9:50:10 PM
Rank: Newbie

Joined: 1/13/2019
Posts: 1
Neurons: 8
yes
Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Monday, January 14, 2019 2:28:10 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 9/12/2011
Posts: 31,663
Neurons: 190,330
Location: Livingston, Scotland, United Kingdom
You are right: "account for" in my examples below doesn't have the meaning of "explain or give a reason for something", nor "to supply the amount that is mentioned".

As thar shows from the dictionary, "account for" means:
"give a satisfactory record of (something, typically money, that one is responsible for)."

Your service provider may account for/record data usage differently.
Carrier data accounting/recording may differ from your device.


For example, your phone may show that it has recorded 5.5MB so far this month, but your service provider may have a record of 6.1MB used.

The phone and the provider tell you how many MB you have - and they may say different things.

Wyrd bið ful aræd - bull!
A cooperator
Posted: Monday, January 14, 2019 4:25:06 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 10/27/2011
Posts: 3,298
Neurons: 12,371
Location: Ḩāḑírah, Hadramawt, Yemen
Drag0nspeaker wrote:
You are right: "account for" in my examples below doesn't have the meaning of "explain or give a reason for something", nor "to supply the amount that is mentioned".

As thar shows from the dictionary, "account for" means:
"give a satisfactory record of (something, typically money, that one is responsible for)."

Your service provider may account for/record data usage differently.
Carrier data accounting/recording may differ from your device.


For example, your phone may show that it has recorded 5.5MB so far this month, but your service provider may have a record of 6.1MB used.

The phone and the provider tell you how many MB you have - and they may say different things.



Thank you all of you.
I've come across the statement below in which I am only concerned about the verb 'count' which is used as an intransitive. Does it mean here 'to be important or valuable' or 'to be accepted' since in my dictionary, only these two senses are used intransitively for 'count'?
count:
1. (T) to say numbers one after another in order.
2. (T) to calculate the total number or amount of sth
3. (I) to be important or valuable
4. (I) to be accepted
5. (T) to consider to be
6. (T) to include sb/sth
Quote:
What had you done yesterday before I saw you?
This is making the action perfect and complete -ie what tasks had you completed before the time that I saw you.
The time frame is constrained by 'yesterday' ie tasks completed before yesterday don't count.




Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Tuesday, January 15, 2019 2:14:46 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 9/12/2011
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Location: Livingston, Scotland, United Kingdom
Of those two intransitive definitions, I would choose "to be accepted".
However, that is not an exact synonym. There are four intransitive definitions in the Collins Dictionary and six (plus several phrasal verbs using 'count') in the Random House Kernerman Webster's Dictionary in TFD.

The nearest, in my opinion, is "to include" used intransitively - which acts like the passive "to be included".

Tasks completed before yesterday don't count.
We don't count tasks completed before yesterday.
That is, not counting tasks completed before yesterday.
Tasks completed before yesterday are not included.



Wyrd bið ful aræd - bull!
A cooperator
Posted: Friday, January 18, 2019 9:02:50 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 10/27/2011
Posts: 3,298
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Location: Ḩāḑírah, Hadramawt, Yemen
Drag0nspeaker wrote:
Of those two intransitive definitions, I would choose "to be accepted".
However, that is not an exact synonym. There are four intransitive definitions in the Collins Dictionary and six (plus several phrasal verbs using 'count') in the Random House Kernerman Webster's Dictionary in TFD.

The nearest, in my opinion, is "to include" used intransitively - which acts like the passive "to be included".

Tasks completed before yesterday don't count.
We don't count tasks completed before yesterday.
That is, not counting tasks completed before yesterday.
Tasks completed before yesterday are not included.



Thanks a lot, Dragonspeaker,
But, "to include" is only used transitively, e.g. 'The holiday costs about £100, not counting the flights.". However, 'count' in the original example is used intransitively, and an intransitive verb is never used as part of a passive verb. So, why have you said "The nearest, in my opinion, is "to include" used intransitively - which acts like the passive "to be included"."
As a result, your alternative/synonym of 'count' in "Tasks completed before yesterday don't count." is used as transitively
We don't count tasks completed before yesterday.
That is, not counting tasks completed before yesterday.
Tasks completed before yesterday are not included.


Quote:
What had you done yesterday before I saw you?
This is making the action perfect and complete -ie what tasks had you completed before the time that I saw you.
The time frame is constrained by 'yesterday' ie tasks completed before yesterday don't count.


Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
A cooperator
Posted: Friday, January 18, 2019 9:41:27 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 10/27/2011
Posts: 3,298
Neurons: 12,371
Location: Ḩāḑírah, Hadramawt, Yemen
Drag0nspeaker wrote:
You are right: "account for" in my examples below doesn't have the meaning of "explain or give a reason for something", nor "to supply the amount that is mentioned".

As thar shows from the dictionary, "account for" means:
"give a satisfactory record of (something, typically money, that one is responsible for)."

Your service provider may account for/record data usage differently.
Carrier data accounting/recording may differ from your device.


For example, your phone may show that it has recorded 5.5MB so far this month, but your service provider may have a record of 6.1MB used.

The phone and the provider tell you how many MB you have - and they may say different things.


But, I even looked the 'account for' up in the Longman dictionary, and I found out that 'to give a satisfactory explanation of why something has happened or why did you do something:
How did you account for the sudden disappearance of the murder weapon?

So, how did you account for the difference between ''to give a satisfactory explanation of why something has happened or why did you do something(explain or give a reason for something" and "give a satisfactory record of (something, typically money, that one is responsible for)."?
I, myself, don't find any difference?
However, in my examples below, I don't think that 'account for' can mean 'to give a satisfactory explanation of why something has happened or why did you do something". I am expecting 'account for' means 'calculate' in the examples below.
Your service provider may account for/calculate/count data usage differently.
Carrier data accounting/calculating/counting may differ from your device.

Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Friday, January 18, 2019 10:32:15 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 9/12/2011
Posts: 31,663
Neurons: 190,330
Location: Livingston, Scotland, United Kingdom
Quote:
So, how did you account for the difference between "to give a satisfactory explanation of why something has happened or why did you do something(explain or give a reason for something" and "give a satisfactory record of (something, typically money, that one is responsible for)."?

That (underlined) is a good example of one meaning of 'account for'!

I account for it by saying that your Longman dictionary only gives one of the two major meanings of the phrasal verb (there is also a third less-common meaning).

account for
vb (intr, preposition)
1. to give reasons for (an event, act, etc)
2. to make or provide a reckoning of (expenditure, payments, etc)
3. to be responsible for destroying, killing, or putting (people, aircraft, etc) out of action

Collins English Dictionary

He had to account for his actions. - explain or give a reason for the actions
He had to account for spending all the money - explain or give a reason for the action of spending
He had to account for all the money he spent during the trip. - give a record of the money


Wyrd bið ful aræd - bull!
A cooperator
Posted: Thursday, February 21, 2019 7:01:54 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 10/27/2011
Posts: 3,298
Neurons: 12,371
Location: Ḩāḑírah, Hadramawt, Yemen
Drag0nspeaker wrote:
Quote:
So, how did you account for the difference between "to give a satisfactory explanation of why something has happened or why did you do something(explain or give a reason for something" and "give a satisfactory record of (something, typically money, that one is responsible for)."?

That (underlined) is a good example of one meaning of 'account for'!

I account for it by saying that your Longman dictionary only gives one of the two major meanings of the phrasal verb (there is also a third less-common meaning).

account for
vb (intr, preposition)
1. to give reasons for (an event, act, etc)
2. to make or provide a reckoning of (expenditure, payments, etc)
3. to be responsible for destroying, killing, or putting (people, aircraft, etc) out of action

Collins English Dictionary

He had to account for his actions. - explain or give a reason for the actions
He had to account for spending all the money - explain or give a reason for the action of spending
He had to account for all the money he spent during the trip. - give a record of the money


Drag0nspeaker,
Firstly: 'account for' in my Longman dictionary is said to be 'phrasal verb (transitive)', and not vb (intr, preposition) as you said.

Secondly: 'account for' has these all-embracing meanings below. But, I am really confused with varying meaning-illustrating words found in my Longman dictionary for each meaning. So, I don't see that there is a striking different between '1' and '2' meanings through reading illustrating words for each meaning.

(1) to give reasons for (an event, act, etc)/to be the reason why something happens:
He had to account for his actions.
Recent pressure at work man account for his behaviour.


(2) to explain/to give a satisfactory explanation of why something has happened or why you did something:
How do you account for the sudden disappearance of the murder weapon?
How can we account for these changes?
How do you account for why Canada calls for an immediate ceasefire in #Yemen, however, it pushed out of one of its largest oil projects by Yemen's government?


Thirdly: I don't see striking difference between the meaing '1' above and '3' below:
(3) explain or give a reason for the action of spending:
He had to account for spending all the money.
I was asked by my boss to account for all the money I had spent(= to say what you spent it on).



Fourthly: I don't see any striking difference between the meaning #3 above, and #4 below:
(4) to give a record of the money:
He had to account for all the money he spent during the trip. - give a record of the money

Fifthly: in the illustrating words explaining the meaning #5 of 'account for' below, I don't see that 'to make up a particular amount..' here makes sense as sense as 'to supply the amount that is mentioned' makes. So, are all the examples below conveying the same meaning of 'to supply the amount that is mentioned/to make or provide a reckoning of (expenditure, payments, etc)'?
(5) to make up a particular amount or part of something/ to supply the amount that is mentioned/to make or provide a reckoning of (expenditure, payments, etc)
Imports from Japan accounted for 40% of the total.
Sales to Europe accounted for 80% of our total sales last year.
The Calgary-based company has a partnership deal with Yemen tied to the Masila oil field, which accounted for roughly 9.5 percent of Nexen's production after royalties in the third quarter.

Sixthly: in my Longman dictionary, I don't see any meaning of 'account for' as "to be responsible for destroying, killing, or putting (people, aircraft, etc) out of action? Can you give an example?

Finally: I think 'count' whose meanings are available below doesn't have the meaning #5 'to make up a particular amount or part of something/to supply the amount that is mentioned' which 'account for' has.
1. (T) to say numbers one after another in order.
2. (T) to calculate the total number or amount of sth
3. (I) to be important or valuable
4. (I) to be accepted
5. (T) to consider to be
6. (T) to include sb/sth

Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Friday, February 22, 2019 3:33:18 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 9/12/2011
Posts: 31,663
Neurons: 190,330
Location: Livingston, Scotland, United Kingdom
Hi again.
The difference between "phrasal verb (transitive)" and "vb (intr, preposition)" is simply nomenclature and viewpoint. Both your Longman's Dictionary and my Collins Dictionary use the phrase in the same way.

I agree with most of what you say about the examples.

****************
Firstly to Fourthly:

I agree that the definitions you give in you last post as (1), (2) and (3) are basically the same definition (though (3) is a slightly narrower definition within the same meaning).

(1) to give reasons for (an event, act, etc)/to be the reason why something happens:
He had to account for his actions.
Recent pressure at work may account for his behaviour.

(2) to explain/to give a satisfactory explanation of why something has happened or why you did something:
How do you account for the sudden disappearance of the murder weapon?
How can we account for these changes?

(3) explain or give a reason for the action of spending:
He had to account for spending all the money.


To me, all of those are the same basic definition - and the examples show the same form
- "account for + an action".

The next example {the second example in (3)} is the other definition.

I was asked by my boss to account for all the money I had spent(= to say what you spent it on).
to make or provide a reckoning of (expenditure, payments, etc)
(4) to give a record of the money:
He had to account for all the money he spent during the trip.
- give a record of the money
These examples show the form
- "account for + a noun (a valuable thing)".

**************
Here are examples of the answers I might give to questions using the two definitions.
How do you account for spending the money? ("account for + action of spending)
I spent it all because my mother came to visit and she is very old and I had to prepare the house to make it safe for her.
The answer is why you did the action.

Can you account for the money you spent? ("account for + noun (money)")
I spent £70 on rails for the shower and bath on Saturday; £50 for special non-slip mats on Monday; and yesterday, I spent £545 for a special armchair for people who have trouble standing.
The answer is a record of the valuable item. (In this case, it's Pounds, money. In your original question, the valuable item was Gigabytes of data.)

*******************
Fifthly.
This is a 'specialised' use of the second definition - though I agree that it is different enough that it should be entered separately in the dictionary. It is used to give a comparative, percentage or ratio.

It is the 'opposite viewpoint' of the second definition - it is a reflexive use (the thing being counted is the subject, rather than the object).
These sentences are equivalent (they have the same meaning):
Imports from Japan accounted for 40% of the total.
If one were to account for all the imports, the ones from Japan would be 40% of the total.
- The 'valuable item' is 'imports'.
The Calgary-based company has a partnership deal with Yemen tied to the Masila oil field, which accounted for roughly 9.5 percent of Nexen's production after royalties in the third quarter.
The Calgary-based company has a partnership deal with Yemen tied to the Masila oil field. When we accounted for Nexen's production after royalties in the third quarter, roughly 9.5 percent of it was from the Masila field.
- The 'valuable item' is 'Nexen's production after royalties'.
As you can see, the 'reflexive' use is significantly shorter and simpler.

*************
Sixthly.
Then, if your dictionary does not give this definition, Longman is missing a definition.
It often helps to look in several dictionaries - which is why TFD uses three or sometimes four.
3. to be responsible for destroying, killing, or putting (people, aircraft, etc) out of action
"We'll trust the artillery to account for most of the ground forces, and use the infantry to mop up any remaining resistance."
"The flash-bang grenades accounted for the four terrorists, who were then arrested, and the hostages were quickly released and taken to ambulances for check-up."


**************
Finally.
You are right.
"Count" as a verb does not mean "account" and it doesn't mean "account for".
They are different verbs and cannot be used to replace each other.


Wyrd bið ful aræd - bull!
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