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The shutdown Options
Oscar D. Grouch
Posted: Friday, December 28, 2018 8:53:13 AM

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tRump is "proud to shutdown the government." tRump will "take ownership of the shutdown." tRump believes people who are unemployed and no longer earning an income "support the shutdown." tRump refuses to compromise and is willing to trash the US economy because he's just a big ...









This is the same business genius that bankrupted a casino! You know about casinos. They're places where people go to voluntarily throw their money away!
Oscar D. Grouch
Posted: Friday, December 28, 2018 11:18:40 AM

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$5 billion for a border wall is a red herring! The real cost has been estimated to be more like $21.6 billion! The cost is likely higher now as this estimate is almost 2 years old. More business genius at work here. Be forewarned.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-immigration-wall-exclusive-idUSKBN15O2ZN?rpc=401&
FounDit
Posted: Friday, December 28, 2018 11:21:36 AM

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Right. Think what we'll lose if he shuts down the border:


· U.S. Customs and Border Protection reports that it seized 1,377 pounds of fentanyl in Fiscal year 2017, much of it on the southwestern border. This equals some 208.2 million lethal doses of this staggeringly potent opioid, which is at least 50 times stronger than morphine. Surely plenty of it was smuggled past CBP and onto America’s streets.

· CBP captured 4,579 pounds of heroin in FY 2017, enough to kill 69.2 million men.

· The National Human Trafficking Hotline received 7,572 reports of such exploitation in 2016, much of it along the southern frontier. That’s 37 percent above 2015’s 5,544 complaints. UNICEF and World Without Exploitation said that traffickers “take advantage of children and their families by extorting them with threats and false promises.”

· “Young women and girls face extraordinary risk of sexual violence on the journey to the United States, the Department of Homeland Security reports. “Sixty to 80 percent of the women and girls who cross Mexico to get to the U.S. border are raped along the way.” Eleanor Goldberg explained in Huffington Post, “Sometimes sex is used as a form of payment, when women and girls don’t have money to pay bribes.” Referring to these migrants, she added: “The assaults are so common that many women and girls take contraceptives beforehand as preventive measures.”

· On December 20, Border Patrol agents near Nogales, Ariz., arrested a 24-year-old Salvadoran member of the bloodthirsty Mara Salvatrucha street gang, a.k.a. MS-13. This previously deported felon broke afresh into America. Two days earlier, Border Patrol officers caught an already deported Honduran MS-13 gangster as he forded the Rio Grande, into Eagle Pass, Texas. MS-13’s motto is “Kill, rape, control.” Suffolk County, N.Y., police commissioner Timothy Sini said that MS-13’s “murders show a level of brutality that is close to unmatched.” Its members also treasure decapitation. A wall would have slowed or stopped these two thugs, as well as MS-13’s 228 violent animals captured by the Border Patrol in FY 2017.

Source:
Deroy Murdock citing Federal Government sites and numbers.



We should look to the past to learn from it, not destroy our future because of it — FounDit
NKM
Posted: Friday, December 28, 2018 11:37:24 AM

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Think how well the wall worked for Berlin.

progpen
Posted: Friday, December 28, 2018 11:51:31 AM

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The wall has nothing to do with security. It is not meant to stop people coming across the border. It is a government hand out to hand-picked contractors and lobbyists. Other than that the only purpose is as a boost to the ego of the current occupant of the White House. The wall as a security platform or as an answer to any of the security issues facing the country has been disproven ad nauseam and only remains as a 'legitimate' solution to those who put their own politics above logic and reality.

Nolite te bastardes carborundorum
Pieter_Hove
Posted: Friday, December 28, 2018 2:02:39 PM

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Joined: 1/6/2014
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Location: Schaerbeek, Brussels Capital Region, Belgium
Oscar D. Grouch wrote:
tRump is "proud to shutdown the government." tRump will "take ownership of the shutdown." tRump believes people who are unemployed and no longer earning an income "support the shutdown." tRump refuses to compromise and is willing to trash the US economy because he's just a big ...









This is the same business genius that bankrupted a casino! You know about casinos. They're places where people go to voluntarily throw their money away!


A balloon, filled with air.
Dynamina
Posted: Friday, December 28, 2018 5:38:02 PM
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Joined: 10/31/2015
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Neurons: 2,720
Pieter_Hove wrote:
A balloon, filled with air.

It is a helium-filled plastic inflatable. The He cylinder is in the back of the ute.
Oscar D. Grouch
Posted: Saturday, December 29, 2018 5:00:54 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 6/26/2014
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Neurons: 974,654
FounDit wrote:
Right. Think what we'll lose if he shuts down the border:


· U.S. Customs and Border Protection reports that it seized 1,377 pounds of fentanyl in Fiscal year 2017, much of it on the southwestern border. This equals some 208.2 million lethal doses of this staggeringly potent opioid, which is at least 50 times stronger than morphine. Surely plenty of it was smuggled past CBP and onto America’s streets.
Etc ...


This is myopic thinking. A high altitude drone could easily carry contraband over the border at 500 feet or more.

https://www.dronethusiast.com/high-altitude-drones-for-sale/

A wall would be meaningless. Shall we build a large plastic dome over the US? Then we'll be safe at last! Brick wall
thar
Posted: Saturday, December 29, 2018 8:43:43 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 7/8/2010
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Is the shutdown affecting the post? I just got a letter from my brother the US, with no stamp or frank or postmark - just what looks like a sticker where the stamp should be?

Or am I missing something about the modern US postal system. Think
Hope123
Posted: Saturday, December 29, 2018 2:41:06 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 3/23/2015
Posts: 8,484
Neurons: 48,555
Location: Burlington, Ontario, Canada
FounDit wrote:
Right. Think what we'll lose if he shuts down the border:


· U.S. Customs and Border Protection reports that it seized 1,377 pounds of fentanyl in Fiscal year 2017, much of it on the southwestern border. This equals some 208.2 million lethal doses of this staggeringly potent opioid, which is at least 50 times stronger than morphine. Surely plenty of it was smuggled past CBP and onto America’s streets.

· CBP captured 4,579 pounds of heroin in FY 2017, enough to kill 69.2 million men.

· The National Human Trafficking Hotline received 7,572 reports of such exploitation in 2016, much of it along the southern frontier. That’s 37 percent above 2015’s 5,544 complaints. UNICEF and World Without Exploitation said that traffickers “take advantage of children and their families by extorting them with threats and false promises.”

· “Young women and girls face extraordinary risk of sexual violence on the journey to the United States, the Department of Homeland Security reports. “Sixty to 80 percent of the women and girls who cross Mexico to get to the U.S. border are raped along the way.” Eleanor Goldberg explained in Huffington Post, “Sometimes sex is used as a form of payment, when women and girls don’t have money to pay bribes.” Referring to these migrants, she added: “The assaults are so common that many women and girls take contraceptives beforehand as preventive measures.”

· On December 20, Border Patrol agents near Nogales, Ariz., arrested a 24-year-old Salvadoran member of the bloodthirsty Mara Salvatrucha street gang, a.k.a. MS-13. This previously deported felon broke afresh into America. Two days earlier, Border Patrol officers caught an already deported Honduran MS-13 gangster as he forded the Rio Grande, into Eagle Pass, Texas. MS-13’s motto is “Kill, rape, control.” Suffolk County, N.Y., police commissioner Timothy Sini said that MS-13’s “murders show a level of brutality that is close to unmatched.” Its members also treasure decapitation. A wall would have slowed or stopped these two thugs, as well as MS-13’s 228 violent animals captured by the Border Patrol in FY 2017.

Source:
Deroy Murdock citing Federal Government sites and numbers.



So you're admitting that there is effective border security and no wall is needed.

And if he shuts down the border completely it will be $billions of trade lost for BOTH countries.

But people's livelihoods don't matter - they can go get jobs just as he told federal employees to do. Brick wall But Donald wants a wall and is having a temper tantrum. Plus see Proggy's post re money.

Bet if lawmakers and rulers lost their salaries, the govt would never be shutdown.

Of course the tents for the New Year's party at Mar a Lago and security will still be paid by the taxpayer. lol

"Do the people you care about love you back?" Warren Buffett's measure of success
thar
Posted: Saturday, December 29, 2018 4:16:36 PM

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People will survive, and they will trade, the way people always do. They will find ways and workarounds - both for the bad and the good. The animals.... not so much. Temper tantrums aside, they are doing it again? When will they admit it isn't working?
Hope123
Posted: Saturday, December 29, 2018 5:33:20 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 3/23/2015
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Location: Burlington, Ontario, Canada
Just read - The Secret Service has written over $100 million worth of checks to Trump’s corporation for lodging, food, and things like “tents” for this weekend’s soirée for New Years.

Not only is it taxpayer money but it is benefitting Trump himself through his businesses. While the government is shut down for every body else! A real con job.

And do you know that according to Trump the deaths of the two children at the border are the fault of the Democrats. And his base probably believes that. Brick wall

"Do the people you care about love you back?" Warren Buffett's measure of success
Oscar D. Grouch
Posted: Sunday, January 6, 2019 9:31:08 PM

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Neurons: 974,654
A wall worthy of Donald J. tRump...






Brick wall Brick wall Brick wall
Oscar D. Grouch
Posted: Tuesday, January 8, 2019 5:16:16 AM

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tRump finally gets to build his wall!



mactoria
Posted: Thursday, January 10, 2019 5:23:48 AM
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Did a little checking on Deroy Murdock's claims about CDB's border reports. Just picked the first one, about 1,377 pounds of fentanyl "much of it on the southwestern border" in FY 2017. First, the original CBD report doesn't exactly say this number for fentanyl in that exact period of time, but I'll let that go. The CBD report references work done by the Office of Field Operations, which does both at-the-border port of entry work as well as in-the-field inspections e.g. cargo coming in by truck, ship, plane, etc. to port, airport, and other other types of warehousing and storage. They do this by inspecting agents going through warehouses manually or with sniffer dogs, searching storage containers, freight containers, etc. The CBD doesn't break down in the report Murdock referenced how much fentanyl was intercepted by border agents checking motor vehicles and persons at what most of recognize as 'ports of entry,' versus how much was uncovered by inspectors/dogs in searches of freighted/shipped/planed cargo....but Rep Will Hurd (Republican from longest Texas congressional district on the US-Mexico border) said on TV last night that a wall/barrier/slats was ineffective for drug interdiction because most illegal drugs were stopped by the Coast Guard or cargo inspections. Also drugs like fentanyl don't just come in to ports/warehouse at the Mexico-US border, they come in from China and other countries to places like San Diego, LA, Houston, Miami, New York, etc. A wall won't stop a smuggler's boat entering Miami and it won't stop a freighter dropping cargo at the Port of LA.

So while the CBD has been doing an increasingly better job at stopping illegal distribution of fentanyl, a truly deadly drug, it's been doing it in legitimate places of business (ie warehouses and storage facilities), not at the local port of entry drive-through by catching smugglers, by highly trained inspectors and dogs and technology (like GPS tracking of shipments, technical analysis, etc.). A wall/barrier/slats haven't been effective because they haven't been needed. Money diverted from current inspection efforts to a wall/barrier/slats would actually make things less effective. Which is a major argument against the $5.6b budget demand: we need to spend budget dollars on things that are effective, like drone technology, more and better-paid agents/inspectors, R and D, expanding and better equipping our Coast Guard which per Rep Hurd accounts for about 90% of our illegal/smuggled drug interdiction success (though it's now only able to react to about 1/4 of actionable smuggling tips it receives). Given the US now is facing a $2trillion debt and uncontrolled deficit, we can't afford to throw even $5billion for fanciful, ineffective things.

On just the 1st point made by Deroy Murdock, quoted by FounDit, the facts about the utility of a wall/barrier/slats to stop illegal drug traffic from Mexico are distorted... essentially not facts. Read the CDB report that covers several yrs up to mid-2018, and compare Murdock's claims to real facts.

Both parties (all...I'm an independent so I'm not happy with either at this point) and the Admin need to drop the win-lose on this simple-minded argument, and come up with a multi-point plan for immigration issues immediately e.g. figure out DACA, better fund the Coast Guard and CBD inspection efforts, jack-up diplomatic and other activities to help resolve the problems in Guatemala/Honduras/El Salvador that keep driving refugees northward, come up with a decent visitor-visa tracking system (gov't estimates from 2-3 yrs ago were that 40% of undocumented persons in the US came here legally on visitors visas from all over the world, and then just stayed because we have always had a lousy tracking system), hire more judges to adjudicate the many thousands of undocumented persons in custody as either getting asylum or being returned to their home countries...which would get kids and families out of crummy camps/prisons and save many millions of dollars we've been paying high-cost no-bid contractors to house inhumanely for way too long. We need to be smart, not stubborn.
Hope123
Posted: Thursday, January 10, 2019 10:35:22 AM

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Mactoria, well said.

You say "both parties must drop the "win-lose" and focus on real methods to defend the border. Sounds good on paper - and actually is good.

But how does one party deal with the leader of the other who follows the lead of the president who thinks that standing firm and walking out of meetings is the only way to bully the other party into acceptance. Last I heard negotiation - that he is supposed to be good at (is not) - included give and take and compromise/cooperation. And what you have suggested is exactly what the Dems are offering. I forget the exact $ figure they've offered for amping up better methods of detection and prevention.

I read that he could have had his wall long ago if he'd accepted the Dreamer proposition the Dems proposed, but did not verify that fact.




"Do the people you care about love you back?" Warren Buffett's measure of success
progpen
Posted: Friday, January 11, 2019 1:21:29 PM

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I'm not a (D) or (R), but I think the statements come very close to saying "both sides are equally responsible", which is not even close to the reality of the situation. The Repugs are the abusive, addict father and the Dems are the codependent mother. Yes, both are ultimately responsible for the messed up kids they raise, but not equally so and not for the same reasons.

Nolite te bastardes carborundorum
RuthP
Posted: Friday, January 11, 2019 3:12:17 PM

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progpen wrote:
I'm not a (D) or (R), but I think the statements come very close to saying "both sides are equally responsible", which is not even close to the reality of the situation. The Repugs are the abusive, addict father and the Dems are the codependent mother. Yes, both are ultimately responsible for the messed up kids they raise, but not equally so and not for the same reasons.

I will agree the Republicans are controlling the situation now. They have Mr. McConnell, the Senate Majority leader who refuses to bring bills to the floor for a vote. The Democrats do not have a way to force his hand until some Republicans join their numbers. They have Mr. Trump, who has said that as president he will veto everything except a wall. At the moment, I do not see the Democrats as having culpability in the current shutdown.

Mr. Trump says this is about more than the wall. It is about broader security issues. It includes humanitarian issues at the border. (I listened to his speech. Without throwing the radio through the window. Though I did cuss at it.) Then, he meets with the Democrats, who have said before the meeting fine, then let us compromise and reach agreement on broader security and humanitarian issues and restart the government. When he walks in the room Mr. Trump asks will you fund the wall (which is certainly not responsive to broader security and humanitarian issues). When the Democrats say no wall, he walks out of the room.

He lies. For Mr. Trump it is all about the wall. If he cannot have this, he will turn off the lights and go home.

Mr. Trump says there is a crisis at the southern border. This makes it sound like an unprecedented number of people are now crossing the border. (He has used that word: an unprecedented crisis at the border.) The caravans simply represent people traveling together for safety.

He lies. Illegal southern border crossings have been declining since 2000. Statistica: Illegal border crossings by fiscal year Illegal crossings, as marked by apprehensions, are now at the lowest level since the early 1970s. The caravan lumps travelers together. They do not increase the numbers.

For further information on the subject of southern border crossing stats, try Fact Check: Illegal border crossings. The original was written in June, last year (2018). It was updated 1/9/2019 (AE-style date).
whatson
Posted: Wednesday, January 16, 2019 8:38:07 PM
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Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
*
Would a kind reader with connection
to the WH consider forwarding
to decision-makers
my humble attempt at
solving America's current problem?

The Barrier may pay for itself.

x - existing design
+ - extension of foundation
for service floors
| - apts., condos (start at safe height)
for rent, purchase by Veritable Patriots
"Irresistible Southern Vistas"
.. - air to keep drawing from bunching on the left

Cross section of Southern Border Habitat Complex

........| ------- |
........| ------- |
........| ------- |
........x ------ +
..S < x ------ + > N
........x ------ +
........x ------ +

Dimensions to be determined by experts.

Dear Members: If the idea is ridiculous, don't hesitate to laugh.



I am a lay-about.
progpen
Posted: Thursday, January 17, 2019 2:07:16 AM

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Joined: 10/2/2015
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Whatson. I think the idea of turning the wall into condos or apartments is about as 'American' an idea as you can get Applause

RuthP. We have known that the fearmongering is based on disinformation and lies from the beginning. We also know that fear sells newspapers and magazines, so this has been an uphill battle from the start. As we have seen in other threads and other conversations, we can provide data, evidence, and proof, but when the other participant in the conversation can only value their own political ideology and dismisses science and data then the conversation should just end. Remove them from the discussion and work around or through the obstacles to fix the issues.

Nolite te bastardes carborundorum
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