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'Hand wounded' Vs. 'Wounded hand' Options
A cooperator
Posted: Sunday, December 30, 2018 11:06:22 PM

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palapaguy wrote:
I was waiting for a "but" and you gave us a "however." Close enough.

Thanks a lot,

I even think the prepositional phrase "at a North Carolina zoo." should have been proceeded by a coma since it sounds as though the escaped lion was at a North Carolina zoo.
Alexandra Black, 22, who was killed Sunday by an escaped lion, at a North Carolina zoo. = Alexandra Black, 22, who was killed Sunday by a lion which was escaped, at a North Carolina zoo.

Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
Audiendus
Posted: Sunday, December 30, 2018 11:19:44 PM
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There are a few (intransitive) verbs which have an active adjectival past participle, e.g:

An escaped lion.
A fallen statue.
A collapsed bridge.
A failed attempt.

And, as you say, "improve" has both an active and a passive adjectival past participle:

They improved the system. It was then an improved system. [transitive use of 'improve'; passive participle]
The student's grades improved. They were then improved grades. [intransitive use of 'improve'; active participle]
A cooperator
Posted: Monday, December 31, 2018 12:04:36 AM

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Audiendus wrote:
There are a few (intransitive) verbs which have an active adjectival past participle, e.g:

An escaped lion. (= A lion which is/was/has been escaped.)
A fallen statue. (= A statue which is/was/has been fallen.)
A collapsed bridge. (=A bridge which is/was has been collapsed.)
A failed attempt. (=An attempt which is/was/has been failed.
An improved system. (= a system which is/was/has been improved.)
The student's improved grades. (=grades which are/were /has been improved

And, as you say, "improve" has both an active and a passive adjectival past participle:

They improved the system. It was then an improved system. [transitive use of 'improve'; passive participle]
The student's grades improved. They were then improved grades. [intransitive use of 'improve'; active participle]


Thanks a lot,
According to your previous rule,

Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
Audiendus
Posted: Monday, December 31, 2018 12:21:25 AM
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A cooperator wrote:
There are a few (intransitive) verbs which have an active adjectival past participle, e.g:

An escaped lion. (= A lion which is/was/has been escaped.)
A fallen statue. (= A statue which is/was/has been fallen.)
A collapsed bridge. (=A bridge which is/was has been collapsed.)
A failed attempt. (=An attempt which is/was/has been failed.)

These, as I say, are active. "Been" would incorrectly make them passive.
A cooperator
Posted: Monday, December 31, 2018 6:52:47 AM

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Audiendus wrote:
A cooperator wrote:
There are a few (intransitive) verbs which have an active adjectival past participle, e.g:

An escaped lion. (= A lion which is/was/has been escaped.)
A fallen statue. (= A statue which is/was/has been fallen.)
A collapsed bridge. (=A bridge which is/was has been collapsed.)
A failed attempt. (=An attempt which is/was/has been failed.)

These, as I say, are active. "Been" would incorrectly make them passive.


Thanks a lot,
1- if those four past participles you said are 'active adjectival past participle', why you kept them used as passive meanings by leaving "is/was".
So, they should have been:
An escaped lion. (= A lion which escaped /has escaped.)

A fallen statue. (= A statue which fell/has fallen.)

A collapsed bridge. (=A bridge which collapsed/has collapsed.)
A failed attempt. (=An attempt which failed/has failed.)

2- I am now confused once you've said that "been" would incorrectly make them passive. However, "is/was" wouldn't.
I think even with "is/was" we can form the present and past passives,and with 'been' we can form past perfect passive.

3- Michael Sawn only dealt with participles in four points below. So, could you please copmare them with your term names"active and passive adjectival past participle"?
A- Most past participle have passive meanings when they are used like adjectives or adverbs:
A broken heart (= a heart which has been broken.)
B- A few past participle can be used as adjective with active meaning, esp before nouns:
A fallen leaf (= a leaf that has fallen.)
An escaped prisoner (= a prisoner who has escaped.)
Advanced students (students who have advanced to a high level.)

C- Past participle is used as part of a passive verb.
He's much admired by his students. ("admired" is used as part of a passive verb.)
Britain's trade position has been much weakened by inflation.

E- Past participle is used as an adjective:
I was very amused/much amused/very much amused by Miranda's performance. ( I don't know if "amused" is used as part of a passive verb or an afjective)
That's Alice, unless I'm much mistaken ("mistaken" is used as an adjective.)


4- for the intransitive verbs which have an active adjectival past participle, e.g: "escaped", which can be found as an original adjective, and not a particple-derived adjective in the dictionaries which means as having escaped from a place. It can be also used as a passive adjectival past participle with other sense other than "to get away from a place". So, that would confusing it and the active adjectival past participle.


5- However, for other verbs, having an active and a passive adjectival past participle, it can be confusing someone if a past participle is used as part of a passive form or as an adjective. E.g:
Their English much improved over last year.("improved" is an active intransitive past participle)
Their English was much improved over last year. ('improved' is part of a passive verb)
Their English was very improved over last year. ("improved" is used as an adjective.)
Improved English/system (= English/system which has improved. ("improved" has an active meaning)
Improved English/system (= English/system which has been improved.("improved" has a passive meaning.)

Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
Audiendus
Posted: Monday, December 31, 2018 8:09:32 AM
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A cooperator wrote:
Audiendus wrote:
A cooperator wrote:
There are a few (intransitive) verbs which have an active adjectival past participle, e.g:

An escaped lion. (= A lion which is/was/has been escaped.)
A fallen statue. (= A statue which is/was/has been fallen.)
A collapsed bridge. (=A bridge which is/was has been collapsed.)
A failed attempt. (=An attempt which is/was/has been failed.)

These, as I say, are active. "Been" would incorrectly make them passive.

Thanks a lot,
1- if those four past participles you said are 'active adjectival past participle', why you kept them used as passive meanings by leaving "is/was".
So, they should have been:
An escaped lion. (= A lion which escaped /has escaped.)

A fallen statue. (= A statue which fell/has fallen.)

A collapsed bridge. (=A bridge which collapsed/has collapsed.)
A failed attempt. (=An attempt which failed/has failed.)

2- I am now confused once you've said that "been" would incorrectly make them passive. However, "is/was" wouldn't.
I think even with "is/was" we can form the present and past passives,and with 'been' we can form past perfect passive.


I thought about deleting "is/was". The reason I kept them is that they are grammatically possible as ordinary linking verbs (not passive-forming verbs).

The lion is/was big.
The lion is/was fierce.
The lion is/was escaped.

However, although "the lion is/was escaped" is grammatically possible, it is not a sentence that a native speaker would actually use; we would always say "has escaped". So you are right - "is/was" can be deleted for practical purposes. (But please note: they do not form passives here.)
Audiendus
Posted: Monday, December 31, 2018 8:47:30 AM
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A cooperator wrote:
3- Michael Swan only dealt with participles in four points below. So, could you please compare them with your term names" active and passive adjectival past participle"? "Passive adjectival past participle" corresponds to A below, and "active adjectival past participle" corresponds to B. In C the past participle is not adjectival. In E, Michael Swan is regarding the participle as a "pure" adjective (without any characteristics of a verb, i.e. it is not really a 'participle' at all), so it cannot be categorized as 'active' or 'passive'.

A- Most past participle have passive meanings when they are used like adjectives or adverbs:
A broken heart (= a heart which has been broken.)

B- A few past participle can be used as adjective with active meaning, esp before nouns:
A fallen leaf (= a leaf that has fallen.)
An escaped prisoner (= a prisoner who has escaped.)
Advanced students (students who have advanced to a high level.)

C- Past participle is used as part of a passive verb.
He's much admired by his students. ("admired" is used as part of a passive verb.)
Britain's trade position has been much weakened by inflation.

E- Past participle is used as an adjective:
I was very amused/much amused/very much amused by Miranda's performance. ( I don't know if "amused" is used as part of a passive verb or an adjective) It could be regarded as either; there is hardly any difference in meaning. Michael Swan means it as an adjective.
That's Alice, unless I'm much mistaken ("mistaken" is used as an adjective.)
Audiendus
Posted: Monday, December 31, 2018 9:15:18 AM
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A cooperator wrote:
4- for the intransitive verbs which have an active adjectival past participle, e.g: "escaped", which can be found as an original adjective, and not a participle-derived adjective in the dictionaries which means as having escaped from a place. It can be also used as a passive adjectival past participle with other sense other than "to get away from a place". So, that would confusing it and the active adjectival past participle.

5- However, for other verbs, having an active and a passive adjectival past participle, it can be confusing someone if a past participle is used as part of a passive form or as an adjective. E.g:
Their English much improved over last year.("improved" is an active intransitive past participle)
Their English was much improved over last year. ('improved' is part of a passive verb)
Their English was very improved over last year. ("improved" is used as an adjective.)
Improved English/system (= English/system which has improved. ("improved" has an active meaning)
Improved English/system (= English/system which has been improved.("improved" has a passive meaning.)

There is no real confusion, because either (a) the meaning is the same whatever you call the construction, or (b) if the meaning varies, the intended construction will be clear from the context.

There is often no clear distinction between a participle used as an adjective and one used as part of a passive verb (e.g. "I was amused by the performance"). The vast majority of native speakers would have no idea how to categorize any particular example, and even grammarians may disagree.

Likewise, there is often no clear distinction between an active and a passive use. For example, is "an improved performance" a performance which has improved, or one which has been improved? There is no definite answer; it could be either.

You will never be able to categorize every construction rigidly. And there is no need to do so - you only need to learn which constructions are possible (not their names), and their meaning.
A cooperator
Posted: Monday, December 31, 2018 5:17:14 PM

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Audiendus wrote:
A cooperator wrote:
Audiendus wrote:
A cooperator wrote:
There are a few (intransitive) verbs which have an active adjectival past participle, e.g:

An escaped lion. (= A lion which is/was/has been escaped.)
A fallen statue. (= A statue which is/was/has been fallen.)
A collapsed bridge. (=A bridge which is/was has been collapsed.)
A failed attempt. (=An attempt which is/was/has been failed.)

These, as I say, are active. "Been" would incorrectly make them passive.

Thanks a lot,
1- if those four past participles you said are 'active adjectival past participle', why you kept them used as passive meanings by leaving "is/was".
So, they should have been:
An escaped lion. (= A lion which escaped /has escaped.)

A fallen statue. (= A statue which fell/has fallen.)

A collapsed bridge. (=A bridge which collapsed/has collapsed.)
A failed attempt. (=An attempt which failed/has failed.)

2- I am now confused once you've said that "been" would incorrectly make them passive. However, "is/was" wouldn't.
I think even with "is/was" we can form the present and past passives,and with 'been' we can form past perfect passive.


I thought about deleting "is/was". The reason I kept them is that they are grammatically possible as ordinary linking verbs (not passive-forming verbs).

The lion is/was big.
The lion is/was fierce.
The lion is/was escaped.

However, although "the lion is/was escaped" is grammatically possible, it is not a sentence that a native speaker would actually use; we would always say "has escaped". So you are right - "is/was" can be deleted for practical purposes. (But please note: they do not form passives here.)


Thanks a lot, Audiendus,

1- You think 'is/are/was/were' are used with the meaning as ordinary linking verbs (not passive-forming verbs) since we're really describing the subject of the sentence, and not the action of the verb. But nevertheless, for past participles following such verbs, it is still confusing me, and then, it still needs a key to distinguish if they are used as ordinary linking verbs or as passive-forming verbs.
2- but, I always think of 'subject has been + adjectival phrase or adjective, then 'been' is a linking-verb.
So, I think even 'been' can be used with the meaning as ordinary linking verbs (not passive-forming verbs),
The lion has been big.
The lion has been fierce.
The lion has been escaped.
3- If "the lion is/was escaped" is a sentence a native English speaker wouldn't use, then how else could they say it?

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thar
Posted: Monday, December 31, 2018 5:31:36 PM

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How else would you say it?
What is the person actually trying to say about the lion?
Does he want to say what has happened? What the lion has done?
Does he want to describe the lion?

What other sentences have you seen that could work here?
eg, if you have just sat a difficult exam, how would you describe it without using the form
That exam was difficult.
How else could you say that?


A cooperator
Posted: Monday, December 31, 2018 7:16:03 PM

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thar wrote:
How else would you say it?
What is the person actually trying to say about the lion?
Does he want to say what has happened? What the lion has done?
Does he want to describe the lion?

What other sentences have you seen that could work here?
eg, if you have just sat a difficult exam, how would you describe it without using the form
That exam was difficult.
How else could you say that?




That exam seemed difficult.
The lion seems/seemed escaped.


Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
A cooperator
Posted: Monday, December 31, 2018 8:31:38 PM

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Audiendus wrote:
There are a few (intransitive) verbs which have an active adjectival past participle, e.g:

An escaped lion.
A fallen statue.
A collapsed bridge.
A failed attempt.

And, as you say, "improve" has both an active and a passive adjectival past participle:

They improved the system. It was then an improved system. [transitive use of 'improve'; passive participle]
The student's grades improved. They were then improved grades. [intransitive use of 'improve'; active participle]


Audiendus,

I read that 'present participles' in the examples below are used as adjectives
That's an interesting idea. (attributive)
That idea is interesting. (predicative)
Tell me something interesting. (postpositive)

However, why can we not use 'present participle' with the same way past participles are used?

That's an interesting idea. (= ......an idea which is interesting. ('is' is used with the meaning as progressive-forming verbs (not ordinary linking verbs), 'interesting' is part of a active verb in its continuous aspect)

That idea is interesting. (('is'(or even are/was/were') are used with the meaning as progressive-forming verbs (not ordinary linking verbs), 'interesting' is part of a active verb in its continuous aspect)

Tell me something interesting.

This is an interesting book.(=This is a book which interests, is interesting.('is'(or even are/was/were') are used with the meaning as progressive-forming verbs (not ordinary linking verbs), 'interesting' is part of a active verb in its continuous aspect)
These are interesting photos.(=These are photos which interest/are interesting.) ('are' is used with the meaning as progressive-forming verbs (not ordinary linking verbs), 'interesting' is part of a active verb in its continuous aspect)

He is a confusing writer. (=....a writer who confuses/is confusing) ('is' is used with the meaning as progressive-forming verbs (not ordinary linking verbs), 'interesting' is part of a active verb in its continuous aspect)

This is an exciting place.(= This is a place which excites/is exiting.)

falling leaves(= leaves which fall.) ( 'fall' is part of a active verb in its simple present aspect)
a meat-eating animal.( an animal that eats meat.) ( 'eat' is part of a active verb in its simple present aspect)


However, I found all 'interest', 'confuse', and 'excite' above are all transitive verbs which need objects. So, thinking of verbs used as part of active verb wouldn't work here. But, I am trying to to find present participle used before noun to have a similar meaning to active verbs. So, I think you understand me what I am thinking about. So, I would try with the below, if they were transitive, then can you give me an example in which an intransitive verb is used, in its present participle form, before a noun?

They improve the system. It is then an improved system. [transitive use of 'improve'; passive participle]
The student's grades improve/are improving. They are then improving grades. [intransitive use of 'improve'; active participle]

They are improving grades. (= They are grades which improve/are improving) ('are' used with the meaning as progressive-forming verbs (not ordinary linking verbs), 'improving' is part of a active verb in its continuous aspect)

This is a pressing health issue. (= This is a health issue which presses/ is pressing.)






Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
Audiendus
Posted: Monday, December 31, 2018 8:41:32 PM
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A cooperator wrote:
1- You think 'is/are/was/were' are used with the meaning as ordinary linking verbs (not passive-forming verbs) since we're really describing the subject of the sentence, and not the action of the verb. But nevertheless, for past participles following such verbs, it is still confusing me, and then, it still needs a key to distinguish if they are used as ordinary linking verbs or as passive-forming verbs. The only key is the meaning. In each particular case, you need to consider whether the passive would make sense or not.

2- but, I always think of 'subject has been + adjectival phrase or adjective, then 'been' is a linking-verb.
So, I think even 'been' can be used with the meaning as ordinary linking verbs (not passive-forming verbs),
The lion has been big.
The lion has been fierce.
The lion has been escaped.
Yes. The last one would probably never be used; but if it were used, it would not be passive.

3- If "the lion is/was escaped" is a sentence a native English speaker wouldn't use, then how else could they say it?
The lion has escaped.
The lion is free.
The lion is on the loose.

A cooperator
Posted: Monday, December 31, 2018 8:51:25 PM

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Audiendus wrote:
A cooperator wrote:
1- You think 'is/are/was/were' are used with the meaning as ordinary linking verbs (not passive-forming verbs) since we're really describing the subject of the sentence, and not the action of the verb. But nevertheless, for past participles following such verbs, it is still confusing me, and then, it still needs a key to distinguish if they are used as ordinary linking verbs or as passive-forming verbs. The only key is the meaning. In each particular case, you need to consider whether the passive would make sense or not.

2- but, I always think of 'subject has been + adjectival phrase or adjective, then 'been' is a linking-verb.
So, I think even 'been' can be used with the meaning as ordinary linking verbs (not passive-forming verbs),
The lion has been big.
The lion has been fierce.
The lion has been escaped.
Yes. The last one would probably never be used; but if it were used, it would not be passive.


Thanks a lot,
But, why did you strikethrough 'been' as long as if it were used, it would not be passive? If 'been' can be regarded to be used as 'is/was', then it should not be struck through like 'is/was'

Audiendus wrote:
There are a few (intransitive) verbs which have an active adjectival past participle, e.g:

An escaped lion. (= A lion which is/was/has been escaped.)
A fallen statue. (= A statue which is/was/has been fallen.)
A collapsed bridge. (=A bridge which is/was has been collapsed.)
A failed attempt. (=An attempt which is/was/has been failed.)

These, as I say, are active. "Been" would incorrectly make them passive.


Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
Audiendus
Posted: Monday, December 31, 2018 9:48:33 PM
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A cooperator wrote:
2- but, I always think of 'subject has been + adjectival phrase or adjective, then 'been' is a linking-verb.
So, I think even 'been' can be used with the meaning as ordinary linking verbs (not passive-forming verbs),
The lion has been big.
The lion has been fierce.
The lion has been escaped.
Yes. The last one would probably never be used; but if it were used, it would not be passive.

Thanks a lot,
But, why did you strikethrough 'been' as long as if it were used, it would not be passive? If 'been' can be regarded to be used as 'is/was', then it should not be struck through like 'is/was'

Because, as I said, the non-passive 'been' would probably never be used. I struck it through because it is confusing (you originally thought it was passive). I was trying to keep the explanation simple.

I do not wish to waste time discussing constructions that are hardly ever used, or never used.
Audiendus
Posted: Monday, December 31, 2018 10:09:24 PM
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A cooperator wrote:
They are improving grades. (= They are grades which improve/are improving) ('are' used with the meaning as progressive-forming verbs (not ordinary linking verbs), 'improving' is part of a active verb in its continuous aspect)

This is a pressing health issue. (= This is a health issue which presses/ is pressing.)

I think you are getting confused.

1. The grades are improving. [present continuous tense, intransitive verb]
2. These [= the grades] are improving grades. [ordinary linking verb, intransitive/active/adjectival participle]
3. They [= the students] are improving their grades. [present continuous tense, transitive verb]
A cooperator
Posted: Tuesday, January 1, 2019 2:04:53 PM

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Audiendus wrote:
A cooperator wrote:
They are improving grades. (= They are grades which improve/are improving) ('are' used with the meaning as progressive-forming verbs (not ordinary linking verbs), 'improving' is part of a active verb in its continuous aspect)

This is a pressing health issue. (= This is a health issue which presses/ is pressing.)

I think you are getting confused.

1. The grades are improving. [present continuous tense, intransitive verb]
2. These [= the grades] are improving grades. [ordinary linking verb, intransitive/active/adjectival participle]
3. They [= the students] are improving their grades. [present continuous tense, transitive verb]


Thanks a lot,
Yes, I am a little bit confused.
I listed my five points below in order. So, the final one you may see has repeated sentences. But, I hope you answer what you see important.
1- in the second sentence, you mentioned to "intransitive/active/adjectival participle". To which part in the sentence does it refer?

2- why is "is improving" in "The grades are improving.[/b]" is present continuous tense, intransitive verb, however, in "These [= the grades] are improving grades.", "is" is ordinary linking verb, "improving grades" is intransitive/active/adjectival participle?

3- why is "falling" in "falling leaves(= leaves which fall.)", "present tense, intransitive verb", however, in "These [= the grades] are improving grades.", "is" is ordinary linking verb, "improving grades" is intransitive/active/adjectival participle?

4- imaging "improving grades" being used, then I think it'd be similar to "falling leaves". In both, present participles are present tense, intransitive verb. That is why I am thinking of "improving grades" as "present tense, intransitive verb" in "These [= the grades] are improving grades."


5- As long as
falling leaves(= leaves which fall.) ( 'fall' is part of a active verb in its simple present aspect)
a meat-eating animal.( an animal that eats meat.) ( 'eat' is part of a active verb in its simple present aspect)

, why are the highlighted present participle before nouns not meant to be as I wrote after the "=" mark.

They are improving grades. (= They are grades which improve/are improving) ('are' used with the meaning as progressive-forming verbs (not ordinary linking verbs), 'improving' is part of a active verb in its continuous aspect)

This is a pressing health issue. (= This is a health issue which presses/ is pressing.)
This is an interesting book.(=This is a book which interests, is interesting.('is'(or even are/was/were') are used with the meaning as progressive-forming verbs (not ordinary linking verbs), 'interesting' is part of a active verb in its continuous aspect)
These are interesting photos.(=These are photos which interest/are interesting.) ('are' is used with the meaning as progressive-forming verbs (not ordinary linking verbs), 'interesting' is part of a active verb in its continuous aspect)

He is a confusing writer. (=....a writer who confuses/is confusing) ('is' is used with the meaning as progressive-forming verbs (not ordinary linking verbs), 'interesting' is part of a active verb in its continuous aspect)

This is an exciting place.(= This is a place which excites/is exiting.)

falling leaves(= leaves which fall.) ( 'fall' is part of a active verb in its simple present aspect)
a meat-eating animal.( an animal that eats meat.) ( 'eat' is part of a active verb in its simple present aspect)


Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
Audiendus
Posted: Tuesday, January 1, 2019 9:51:51 PM
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A cooperator wrote:
1- in the second sentence, you mentioned to "intransitive/active/adjectival participle". To which part in the sentence does it refer? The word "improving".

2- why is "is improving" in "The grades are improving.[/b]" is present continuous tense, intransitive verb, however, in "These [= the grades] are improving grades.", "is" is ordinary linking verb, "improving grades" is intransitive/active/adjectival participle?
"These are improving grades" means "These are grades which are improving". Now look at the structure of those sentences:

These are grades which are improving.
These are improving grades.

You can see that the "are" in the second sentence corresponds to the first (not the second) "are" in the first sentence. Since the first "are" in the first sentence is an ordinary linking verb, so is the "are" in the second sentence. The clause "which are improving" in the first sentence corresponds to the single word "improving" in the second sentence. In the first sentence there is a continuous present tense ("are improving"), but only in the dependent clause. There is no continuous present tense in the second sentence. "Are improving" in the second sentence may look like a continuous present tense, but actually it is not. Do you now understand?


3- why is "falling" in "falling leaves(= leaves which fall.)", "present tense, intransitive verb",
It is not. It is an adjective. ("Fall" in "which fall" is simple present tense.)

however, in "These [= the grades] are improving grades.", "is" is ordinary linking verb, "improving grades" is intransitive/active/adjectival participle? See my answer to (2).

4- imaging "improving grades" being used, then I think it'd be similar to "falling leaves". In both, present participles are present tense, intransitive verb. That is why I am thinking of "improving grades" as "present tense, intransitive verb" in "These [= the grades] are improving grades." See my answers above. "Improving grades" and "falling leaves" are not in any tense, since they do not have a finite verb. They are just an adjective and a noun.

I think your other questions are covered by my answers above.

On a general point: When you substitute one word or phrase for another that means the same (e.g. "falling leaves" = "leaves which are falling" or "leaves which fall"), the whole of one word/phrase corresponds to the whole of the other. Since "which are falling" and "which fall" are adjectival clauses, "falling" (in "falling leaves") must also be adjectival.

Consider this sentence:

The painter's favourite theme is falling leaves. (He likes to paint falling leaves.)

You can see that "is" must be a linking verb here. "Is falling" would not make sense as a continuous present tense; it is not the theme that is falling.
A cooperator
Posted: Thursday, January 3, 2019 7:14:24 PM

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Audiendus,
Could you please just check out where the wrong points are?

1- Nikki Haley, the exiting U.S. ambassador to the United Nations, issued a harsh assessment of UNESCO on Tuesday, one day after the United States and Israel officially quit the U.N. agency, alleging an anti-Israel bias. (......the U.S. ambassador who exists to the United Nations...)

1- We all want to know how to improve spoken English(=.... English which is spoken.)
2- If you want to improve your English speaking on Skype, you should know as much information about education of your online English speaking partner as possible.(= ....your online partner who speaks English.)
2- Speaking English. (NOT= English which speaks/is speaking) ('speaking' is a gerund acting as a noun)
3- Such approach to learning speaking English online with Skype allows you to improve pronunciation and to understand average British or American style of speech.(NOT = ....to learning English which speaks/is speaking.. ('speaking' is a gerund here acting as a noun)
4- Sometimes the difficult thing about English speaking isn’t the language itself, but how you think about it.( 'speaking' is just an original noun, and NOT participle nor a gerund)
5- What facts should you consider when choosing a tutor to improve English speaking online? ( 'speaking' is just an original noun, and NOT participle nor a gerund)



1- Learnt English (English which was learnt)
2- Who could guarantee for me that website is a certified guaranteed English learning website(= ....a certified guaranteed website which learns English)?
3- English learning lessons: (= lessons which learn English)
4- English learning. ( 'learning' is just an original noun, and NOT participle nor a gerund)
5- Learning English (NOT = English which learns/is learning), ('learnig' is a gerund acting as a noun)
6- Learning English isn't worth it if you still can't speak the language.(NOT = English which learns/is learning isn't....) ('learnig' is a gerund acting as a noun)






Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
A cooperator
Posted: Thursday, January 3, 2019 8:19:53 PM

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Audiendus wrote:
There are a few (intransitive) verbs which have an active adjectival past participle, e.g:

An escaped lion.
A fallen statue.
A collapsed bridge.
A failed attempt.

And, as you say, "improve" has both an active and a passive adjectival past participle:

They improved the system. It was then an improved system. [transitive use of 'improve'; passive participle]
The student's grades improved. They were then improved grades. [intransitive use of 'improve'; active participle]


If '"UNESCO is among the most corrupt and politically biased UN agencies," Haley wrote.' = 'UNESCO is among the UN agencies which are the most corrupt and have politically biased', then "biased" is regarded as an intransitive verb which has an active adjectival past participle)
If, however, it = "UNESCO is among the UN agencies which are the most corrupt and politically biased", then "biased" is regarded as a transitive verb which has a passive adjectival past participle)



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Audiendus
Posted: Thursday, January 3, 2019 10:48:02 PM
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A cooperator wrote:
Audiendus,
Could you please just check out where the wrong points are?

1- Nikki Haley, the existing U.S. ambassador to the United Nations, issued a harsh assessment of UNESCO on Tuesday, one day after the United States and Israel officially quit the U.N. agency, alleging an anti-Israel bias. (......the current/present U.S. ambassador who exists to the United Nations...) [Look up this meaning of "existing" in a dictionary]

1- We all want to know how to improve spoken English(=.... English which is spoken.) Yes.
2- If you want to improve your English speaking on Skype, you should know as much information about education of your online English speaking partner as possible.(= ....your online partner who speaks English.) Yes.
2- Speaking English. (NOT= English which speaks/is speaking) ('speaking' is a gerund acting as a noun) See my comment below.
3- Such approach to learning speaking English online with Skype allows you to improve pronunciation and to understand average British or American style of speech.(NOT = ....to learning English which speaks/is speaking.. ('speaking' is a gerund here acting as a noun) I am not sure. "Learning speaking English" is not a normal expression. It certainly does not mean "English which speaks/is speaking", but it could possibly mean either "to speak English" or "spoken English" (probably "to speak English").
4- Sometimes the difficult thing about English speaking isn’t the language itself, but how you think about it.( 'speaking' is just an original noun, and NOT participle nor a gerund) I would call it a gerund. ("English speaking" here means "speaking English", not "speaking which is English".)
5- What facts should you consider when choosing a tutor to improve English speaking online? ( 'speaking' is just an original noun, and NOT participle nor a gerund) See (4) above.

1- Learnt English (English which is/was learnt) Yes.
2- Who could guarantee for me that website is a certified guaranteed English learning website(= ....a certified guaranteed website which learns English)? No. Websites do not learn English! It means "website for learning English".
3- English learning lessons: (= lessons which learn English) No. Lessons do not learn English! It means "lessons for learning English".
4- English learning. ( 'learning' is just an original noun, and NOT participle nor a gerund) I would call it a gerund. See my comment about "English speaking" above.
5- Learning English (NOT = English which learns/is learning), ('learning' is a gerund acting as a noun) Yes.
6- Learning English isn't worth it if you still can't speak the language.(NOT = English which learns/is learning isn't....) ('learning' is a gerund acting as a noun) Yes.
Audiendus
Posted: Thursday, January 3, 2019 10:55:21 PM
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A cooperator wrote:
If '"UNESCO is among the most corrupt and politically biased UN agencies," Haley wrote.' = 'UNESCO is among the UN agencies which are the most corrupt and have politically biased', then "biased" is regarded as an intransitive verb which has an active adjectival past participle) "Have politically biased" does not make sense. "Bias" is a transitive verb.

If, however, it = "UNESCO is among the UN agencies which are the most corrupt and politically biased", then "biased" is regarded as a transitive verb which has a passive adjectival past participle) Yes.
A cooperator
Posted: Friday, January 4, 2019 7:11:24 PM

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Audiendus wrote:
A cooperator wrote:
2- but, I always think of 'subject has been + adjectival phrase or adjective, then 'been' is a linking-verb.
So, I think even 'been' can be used with the meaning as ordinary linking verbs (not passive-forming verbs),
The lion has been big.
The lion has been fierce.
The lion has been escaped.
Yes. The last one would probably never be used; but if it were used, it would not be passive.

3- If "the lion is/was escaped" is a sentence a native English speaker wouldn't use, then how else could they say it?
The lion has escaped.
The lion is free.
The lion is on the loose.



Audiendus
I've understood all your quite excellent explanations very well.
If the lion escaped a week ago, then "The lion was escaped a week ago."
However, imagine "lion" having escaped for specific or unspecific time in the past, and has been still escaped. So, I think:
The lion has been escaped for a week/since the morning.(we are really describing the subject of the sentence, and not the action of it. "has been" is a link verb, "escaped" is active adjectival past participle. I didn't say "an adjective since "escaped" isn't an original adjective. )
The lion has escaped for a week/since the morning( we're really describing the action of the sentence, and not the the subject of it."has escaped" is present prefect tense, intransitive verb.)
The lion has been escaping for a week/since the morning(we're really describing the action of the sentence, and not the subject of it.("has been escaping" is perfect continuous tense, intransitive verb.)




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Audiendus
Posted: Friday, January 4, 2019 8:45:27 PM
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A cooperator wrote:
If the lion escaped a week ago, then "The lion was escaped a week ago." "The lion was escaped a week ago" (although a native speaker would probably never say it) refers to the lion's state after it escaped, not to the action of escaping.

However, imagine "lion" having escaped for specific or unspecific time in the past, and has been is still escaped. So, I think:
The lion has been escaped for a week/since the morning.(we are really describing the subject of the sentence, and not the action of it. "has been" is a link verb, "escaped" is active adjectival past participle. I didn't say "an adjective since "escaped" isn't an original adjective.) Yes, I agree.

The lion has escaped for a week/since the morning( we're really describing the action of the sentence, and not the the subject of it."has escaped" is present prefect tense, intransitive verb.) You cannot use "for a week" here. That would mean that the action of escaping has lasted a whole week! "The lion has escaped since the morning" is OK; it means that it escaped at some particular moment between the morning and now. I do not understand your distinction between the action and the subject; the sentence describes the action and therefore gives information about the subject of it.

The lion has been escaping for a week/since the morning(we're really describing the action of the sentence, and not the subject of it.("has been escaping" is perfect continuous tense, intransitive verb.) This sentence does not work. With the continuous tense, both "for a week" and "since the morning" imply that the action has been going on all that time. But the action only took a moment; it does not take a week, or even a few hours, for a lion to break out of its enclosure!
A cooperator
Posted: Saturday, January 5, 2019 9:18:08 PM

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Audiendus wrote:
A cooperator wrote:
If '"UNESCO is among the most corrupt and politically biased UN agencies," Haley wrote.' = 'UNESCO is among the UN agencies which are the most corrupt and have politically biased', then "biased" is regarded as an intransitive verb which has an active adjectival past participle) "Have politically biased" does not make sense. "Bias" is a transitive verb.





Audiendus,
First of all, I am confused with these constructions 'participles', esp when used as adjectives before nouns. So, as an experienced, native English-speaking person, could you suggest a way helping me to master this kinds of participle?

Secondly: while looking up some words such as 'escaped', 'experienced', 'existing' and 'interested/interesting'(I've illustrated what I mean below for some words), I've really found them listed as adjectives with standalone words in addition to the past or/and present participle although they seem not to be original adjectives, like 'bad/fair/good, etc.'. However, they are derived from their verbs :present participle and past participle.

So, do you think those (intransitive) verbs which have an active adjectival past participle, e.g: (An escaped lion. A fallen statue. A collapsed bridge. A failed attempt.) AND which have both an active and a passive adjectival past participle('An improved system', 'improved grades' can be told by a dictionary adjectives with standalone words in the same form of the past participle of the verb?

So, I have these questions:
(A) as long as 'escape' also has a past participle with adding '-ed', is there any difference between the past participle of 'escape' and the word 'escaped' listed as an adjective in the dictionary?

Word: Spend (NOTE: this word has only two out of the four points available in the dictionary since 'spent' and 'spending' are not words listed as adjectives.)
Dictionary tells, under the definition of verb 'spend', that the Past Participle (-ed) is: spent, e.g. I've spent most time in the party.(transitive verb in present perfect tense)
Dictionary tells, under the definition of verb 'spend', that the present participle (-ing) is 'spending', e.g, 'I am now spending more time than usual on this topic, I think.' (transitive verb in continuous tense)
Dictionary didn't tell/list 'spent' as an adjective. This is well-spent money. This is a well-spent time. It's well spent money. It's a well-spent time.
Dictionary didn't tell/list 'spending' as an adjective. Spending time/money. It was spending time/money. well-spending money/time.

Word: escape (NOTE: this word has only three out of the four points available in the dictionary since 'escaping' is not a word listed an an adjective.)
Dictionary tells, under the definition of verb 'escape', that the Past Participle (-ed) is: escaped, e.g, I've escaped ((intransitive verb in present perfect tense)), I've escaped unhurt(transitive verb in present perfect tense)
Dictionary tells, under the definition of verb 'escape', that Present Participle (-ing) is: escaping, e.g, I am escaping. (intransitive in continuous tense verb) I am escaping unhurt.(Transitive verb in continuous tense)
Dictionary tells/lists, under the definition of 'escaped', that 'escaped' is an Adjective: An escaped lion(= a lion which has escaped.) ["escaped" is an adjective.]
Dictionary didn't tell/list 'escaping' as an Adjective: An escaping lion. An escaping person.

Word: Experience (NOTE: this word has only three out of the four points below available in the dictionary since 'experiencing' is not a word listed an an adjective.)
Dictionary tells under the definition of verb 'experience', that the Past Participle (-ed) is: experienced, e.g, I’ve experienced pleasure.(transitive verb in present perfect tense)
Dictionary tells, under the definition of verb 'experience', that Present Participle (-ing) is: experiencing, e.g, I am experiencing pleasure. (transitive verb in continuous tense)
Dictionary tells/lists, under the definition of 'experienced', that 'experienced' is an Adjective, e.g., I am experienced. An experienced tutor. (= a tutor who has experienced.) ('experienced' is an adjective)
Dictionary didn't tell/list 'experiencing', as an Adjective: “I am experiencing.” = "I am an experiencing kind of person.", "An experiencing tutor.", "An experiencing situation."

Word: Exist (NOTE: this word has only three points out of the four below available in the dictionary, since 'existed' is not a word listed an an adjective.)
Dictionary tells under the definition of verb 'exist', that the Past Participle (-ed) is: existed, e.g, The fish hasn't existed out of water.(intransitive verb in present perfect tense)
Dictionary tells, under the definition of verb 'exist', that Present Participle (-ing) is: existing, e.g, Fish is existing in the water(intransitive verb in continuous tense).
Dictionary didn't tell/list 'existed' as an Adjective, e.g., "I am existed". "An existed person/law"
Dictionary tells/lists 'existing', as an Adjective: “I am existing.” = "I am an existing kind of person.", "Nikki Haley, the existing U.S. ambassador to the United Nations", "An existing situation." ["existing" is an adjective.]

Word: Interest NOTE: this word has all the four points available in the dictionary.)
Dictionary tells, under the definition of verb 'interest', that the Past Participle (-ed) is: interested, e.g., I’ve interested you.(transitive verb in present perfect tense)
Dictionary tells, under the definition of verb 'interest', that the Present Participle(-ing) is: interesting, e.g., I am interesting you.(transitive verb in continuous tense).
Dictionary tells, under the definition of word 'interested', that 'interested' is an adjective, e.g, “I am interested in this book" ["interested" is an adjective]
Dictionary tells, under the definition of word 'interesting', that 'interesting' is an adjective, e.g, "I am interesting.” = “I am an interesting kind of person.”, "An interesting book.(= a book which is interesting.), "An interesting person. (= a person who is interesting.)" ["interesting" is an adjective.]

(B) almost all regular and irregular verbs in English have present participle and past participle listed under the definitions of their own verb words. But, when looking up some words, such as 'spend', 'estimate', 'spell', etc, I didn't see 'spending/spent', estimating/estimated', 'spelt/spelling' etc. are listed as adjectives as the way 'escaped, experienced, existing, interesting/interested' are listed. So, what does that mean that some words are found in the dictionary as adjective words in the same form of their 'past participle' or 'present participle or sometime in both, however, some other words are only found as past and present participle under the root definition of their verbs?

(C) I've downloaded a list of participle adjectives (-ed and -ing adjectives) in English.
We usually use the past participle (-ed) to talk about someone’s feelings and the present participle (-ing) to talk about cause of the feeling. So, do you think this can be applied for all the verbs in English regardless of they are transitive, intransitive or both?








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Audiendus
Posted: Saturday, January 5, 2019 10:34:42 PM
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A cooperator,

Some participles are specifically listed in dictionaries (as adjectives) because they are very common - e.g. interesting, boring, frightening, demanding, nourishing, horrifying, reassuring, satisfying, done, lost, broken, finished, spent, divided, abandoned, prepared (and many others). Large dictionaries obviously list more such words than smaller dictionaries.

These common (adjectival) participles often function differently from participles used as verbs. For example, "frightening" used as a verb is transitive and needs a direct object:

This is frightening me.
He dressed as a ghost and ran around the room, frightening the children.


However, when used as an adjective, "frightening" does not have an object:

It was a frightening sight.
The sight was frightening.


Any participle can be used as a verb. Any participle listed in a dictionary as an adjective can be used as an adjective. There are probably some other participles that can be used as adjectives even though they are not specifically listed in a dictionary; these can only be learned by experience of English speaking/writing.
A cooperator
Posted: Sunday, January 6, 2019 5:44:38 PM

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Audiendus wrote:
A cooperator wrote:
If the lion escaped a week ago, then "The lion was escaped a week ago." "The lion was escaped a week ago" (although a native speaker would probably never say it) refers to the lion's state after it escaped, not to the action of escaping.

However, imagine "lion" having escaped for specific or unspecific time in the past, and has been is still escaped. So, I think:
The lion has been escaped for a week/since the morning.(we are really describing the subject of the sentence, and not the action of it. "has been" is a link verb, "escaped" is active adjectival past participle. I didn't say "an adjective since "escaped" isn't an original adjective.) Yes, I agree.

The lion has escaped for a week/since the morning( we're really describing the action of the sentence, and not the the subject of it."has escaped" is present perfect tense, intransitive verb.) You cannot use "for a week" here. That would mean that the action of escaping has lasted a whole week! "The lion has escaped since the morning" is OK; it means that it escaped at some particular moment between the morning and now. I do not understand your distinction between the action and the subject; the sentence describes the action and therefore gives information about the subject of it.


Audiendus, You think it's better to keep questions relevant to the topic. But, sometimes I had to raise other relevant questions like the ones below:
Firstly: I am curious to know what description you'll give to 'subject being described' and 'action being described instead'. I, myself, saw Michael Swan had said, "in the section of the verbs followed by adjectives, some verbs are followed by adjectives. This happens when we're really describing the subject of the sentence, and not the action of the sentence.(e.g, She sat motionless, waiting for their decision." So, I became repeating 'we're describing the subject of the sentence, and not the action of the sentence if the verb used is as a link verb(non-action verb) and followed by an adjective describing the state of the subject(as in 'The lion has been escaped for a week/since the morning). However, when saying 'we're describing the action of the sentence, and not the subject of the sentence', I mean that the verb used is as a non-link verb(an action verb) and normally not followed by an adjective.(The lion has escaped since the morning.) That is my distinction between the action and the subject here.

Secondly: 'The lion has been escaped for a week(specific/definite period/time), since the morning(inspecific/indefinite period/time), before((inspecific/indefinite period/time). Do you think we can say "The lion has escaped a week ago." or even without referring to any adverbial phrases(for..., since...., before, ...ago, etc)?

Thirdly: I was thinking the present perfect tense is typically used for past action with some present connection. So, "The lion has escaped before/since the morning/a week ago." would work.

Fourthly: I can say "The lion has been escaped for a week", which means the lion's state has lasted a week. But, "The lion has escaped for a week' wouldn't work since the action of escaping would mean it has lasted a week. I was intending the action of escaping had happened, sinc then and 'state of escaping' is continuation up to the present.

As a result, 'for specific period/time' cannot be used with the present or past perfect tense. But, it can be used with either the continuous present or past perfect tense or with the descripting state with the verb 'has been escaped'.
Finally: you think we can call 'has been' as present perfect plus 'adjective' in (has been escaped for...), and 'was' simple past + adjective 'escaped' in 'The lion was escaped..ago')


Audiendus wrote:
The lion has been escaping for a week/since the morning(we're really describing the action of the sentence, and not the subject of it.("has been escaping" is perfect continuous tense, intransitive verb.) This sentence does not work. With the continuous tense, both "for a week" and "since the morning" imply that the action has been going on all that time. But the action only took a moment; it does not take a week, or even a few hours, for a lion to break out of its enclosure!


Firstly: "Progressive present tense" is typically used in continuation up to the present. "The Lion has been escaping for a week/since the morning", would not work only for 'animals' having escaped since 'escaping' will only last for a moment. Or even for persons(e.g, prisoners) having been escaping since some time up to the present. Imagine 'prisoners' having been escaping from area to another for some period. It'd still not work when saying 'The prisoners have been escaping for a week/since the morning/all the day.'. So, 'The lion has been escaping all the day.'
Finally: I really having a problem using tenses esp 'progressive and perfect since we only have three tenses in Arabic, past, present, and future.
I really double check the grammar book for Michael Swan, in the non-progressive verbs, and I didn't find 'escape' is listed there. So, do you think that 'escape' like the verbs not used in progressive forms,(non-progressive verbs), such as 'like, want, need, smell, taste, prefer, agree etc?


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A cooperator
Posted: Sunday, January 6, 2019 7:24:54 PM

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Audiendus wrote:
A cooperator,

Some participles are specifically listed in dictionaries (as adjectives) because they are very common - e.g. interesting, boring, frightening, demanding, nourishing, horrifying, reassuring, satisfying, done, lost, broken, finished, spent, divided, abandoned, prepared (and many others). Large dictionaries obviously list more such words than smaller dictionaries.

These common (adjectival) participles often function differently from participles used as verbs. For example, "frightening" used as a verb is transitive and needs a direct object:

This is frightening me.
He dressed as a ghost and ran around the room, frightening the children.


However, when used as an adjective, "frightening" does not have an object:

It was a frightening sight.
The sight was frightening.


Any participle can be used as a verb. Any participle listed in a dictionary as an adjective can be used as an adjective. There are probably some other participles that can be used as adjectives even though they are not specifically listed in a dictionary; these can only be learned by experience of English speaking/writing.


Thanks a lot,
You've now eliminated the ambiguity about why some participles are not listed in a dictionary as adjectives although they can be used as adjectives.
But,
Firstly: since I read, in Michael Swan's book, the alternative next to each phrase below(please see the alternatives), and I saw that alternatives seem as verb action', I am confused with if they were adjectival participles or not. So, You think that the participles which are used as adjective before a noun or after a link verb, regardless of the alternative, and they are listed or not listed in dictionary as adjectives, can come only in three groups:active adjectival present participle (e.g, 'a preceding page = a page which preceds', 'falling leaves = leaves which fall', 'an existing ambassador = an ambassador who is existing NOT = an ambassador who exists.', 'an interesting book = a book which is interesting NOT = a book which interests', 'streaming children= children who stream', 'a meat-eating animal = an animal which eats meat') and 'active adjectival past participle, (e.g 'escaped lion= a lion which has escaped', 'improved grades =grades which have improved') and 'passive adjectival past participle' (e.g, 'a broken heart = a heart which has been broken', 'a forgotten person= a person who has been forgotten by everyone', 'an improved system= a system which is/was/has been improved', ''a well-spent time= a time which is/was/has been well spent', a lost dog = a dog which is/was/has been lost', 'home-made cake = a cake which is/was/has been made at home')

Having seen the alternatives above, I only saw that only 'existing' and 'interesting' are used as adjectival participle since their alternatives are 'an ambassador who is existing' and 'a book which is interesting.', and not 'an ambassador who exists', 'a book which interests.'


Secondly: I have a problem analysing "a bored person" /"an interested person"/ "excited kids". However, I don't have a problem with 'a person is bored' or 'a person is interested in a book.' or 'kids are excited.' . My analyzing problem is as long as ' broken heart = a heart which has been broken', and 'a forgotten person= a person who has been forgotten by everyone', I am wondering why "a bored person" Not = "a person who is/was/has been bored.", "an interested person" NOT = "a person who is/was/has been interested.", and "excited kids" NOT = "kids who are/were/have been excited".

Thirdly: for instance, 'spent' can be used a passive adjectival past participle, but it isn't listed in the dictionary as an adjective. But 'spending' is not listed and cannot be originally used as an active adjectival present participle.

Dictionary didn't tell/list 'spent' as an adjective. This is well-spent money. This is a well-spent time. It's well spent money. It's a well-spent time.
Dictionary didn't tell/list 'spending' as an adjective. Spending time/money. It was spending time/money. well-spending money/time.

So, I'll need to look up words in a big dictionary to have great chance of finding as many participles listed in a dictionary as adjectives as possible. I really use the Longman dictionary, third edition(English-English). Oxford dictionary Arabic-English.

Finally: I've downloaded a long list of participle adjectives (-ed and -ing adjectives) in English, but there are also still participles not listed.
You think we usually use the past participle (-ed) to talk about someone’s feelings and the present participle (-ing) to talk about the cause of the feeling. So, do you think this can be applied for all the verbs in English regardless of they are transitive, intransitive or both.

Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
Audiendus
Posted: Sunday, January 6, 2019 10:33:29 PM
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A cooperator wrote:
Audiendus wrote:
A cooperator wrote:
If the lion escaped a week ago, then "The lion was escaped a week ago." "The lion was escaped a week ago" (although a native speaker would probably never say it) refers to the lion's state after it escaped, not to the action of escaping.

However, imagine "lion" having escaped for specific or unspecific time in the past, and has been is still escaped. So, I think:
The lion has been escaped for a week/since the morning.(we are really describing the subject of the sentence, and not the action of it. "has been" is a link verb, "escaped" is active adjectival past participle. I didn't say "an adjective since "escaped" isn't an original adjective.) Yes, I agree.

The lion has escaped for a week/since the morning( we're really describing the action of the sentence, and not the the subject of it."has escaped" is present perfect tense, intransitive verb.) You cannot use "for a week" here. That would mean that the action of escaping has lasted a whole week! "The lion has escaped since the morning" is OK; it means that it escaped at some particular moment between the morning and now. I do not understand your distinction between the action and the subject; the sentence describes the action and therefore gives information about the subject of it.


Audiendus, You think it's better to keep questions relevant to the topic. But, sometimes I had to raise other relevant questions like the ones below:
Firstly: I am curious to know what description you'll give to 'subject being described' and 'action being described instead'. I, myself, saw Michael Swan had said, "in the section of the verbs followed by adjectives, some verbs are followed by adjectives. This happens when we're really describing the subject of the sentence, and not the action of the sentence.(e.g, She sat motionless, waiting for their decision." So, I became repeating 'we're describing the subject of the sentence, and not the action of the sentence if the verb used is as a link verb(non-action verb) and followed by an adjective describing the state of the subject(as in 'The lion has been escaped for a week/since the morning). However, when saying 'we're describing the action of the sentence, and not the subject of the sentence', I mean that the verb used is as a non-link verb(an action verb) and normally not followed by an adjective.(The lion has escaped since the morning.) That is my distinction between the action and the subject here. OK, I understand.

Secondly: 'The lion has been escaped for a week(specific/definite period/time), since the morning(inspecific/indefinite period/time), before((inspecific/indefinite period/time). Do you think we can say "The lion has escaped a week ago." or even without referring to any adverbial phrases(for..., since...., before, ...ago, etc)? We can say "The lion escaped a week ago", or "The lion has escaped". See my comment below.

Thirdly: I was thinking the present perfect tense is typically used for past action with some present connection. So, "The lion has escaped before/since the morning/a week ago." would work. "The lion has escaped before" (i.e. before now) and "The lion has escaped since the morning" (i.e. between this morning and now) are OK, but "The lion has escaped a week ago" does not sound right (I think it is because there is not enough present connection). I would say "The lion escaped a week ago".

Fourthly: I can say "The lion has been escaped for a week", which means the lion's state has lasted a week. But, "The lion has escaped for a week' wouldn't work since the action of escaping would mean it has lasted a week. I was intending the action of escaping had happened, since then and 'state of escaping' is continuation up to the present. No, that is not the state of escaping - it is the state of having escaped or the state of being escaped.

As a result, 'for specific period/time' cannot be used with the present or past perfect tense. But, it can be used with either the continuous present or past perfect tense Yes, if it refers to a continuous action or with the descripting state with the verb 'has been escaped' Yes.

Finally: you think we can call 'has been' as present perfect plus 'adjective' in (has been escaped for...), and 'was' simple past + adjective 'escaped' in 'The lion was escaped..ago') Yes, but they sound very unnatural (especially the second one).


Audiendus wrote:
The lion has been escaping for a week/since the morning(we're really describing the action of the sentence, and not the subject of it.("has been escaping" is perfect continuous tense, intransitive verb.) This sentence does not work. With the continuous tense, both "for a week" and "since the morning" imply that the action has been going on all that time. But the action only took a moment; it does not take a week, or even a few hours, for a lion to break out of its enclosure!


Firstly: "Progressive present tense" is typically used in continuation up to the present. "The Lion has been escaping for a week/since the morning", would not work only for 'animals' having escaped since 'escaping' will only last for a moment. Or even for persons(e.g, prisoners) having been escaping since some time up to the present. Imagine 'prisoners' having been escaping from area to another for some period. It'd still not work when saying 'The prisoners have been escaping for a week/since the morning/all the day.'. So, 'The lion has been escaping all the day.' It certainly does not work for an animal. It might work for persons, e.g. prisoners of war who have planned a long escape route to another country. But even then, I would probably say "...have been trying to escape", because both the initial escape (from the prison) and the final escape (over the country's border) are momentary actions.

Finally: I really having a problem using tenses esp 'progressive and perfect since we only have three tenses in Arabic, past, present, and future.
I really double check the grammar book for Michael Swan, in the non-progressive verbs, and I didn't find 'escape' is listed there. So, do you think that 'escape' like the verbs not used in progressive forms,(non-progressive verbs), such as 'like, want, need, smell, taste, prefer, agree etc? You can use 'escape' in a progressive form if appropriate, e.g:

The air is escaping from the container. [Each individual molecule only takes a moment to escape, but the escape of the air as a whole is continuous.]
The prisoners are escaping. [Each individual prisoner only takes a moment to escape, but the escape of the prisoners as a group is continuous.]

Audiendus
Posted: Sunday, January 6, 2019 10:52:52 PM
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A cooperator wrote:
You think we usually use the past participle (-ed) to talk about someone’s feelings and the present participle (-ing) to talk about the cause of the feeling. So, do you think this can be applied for all the verbs in English regardless of they are transitive, intransitive or both.

What do you mean?

How would it apply to verbs that are not about feelings?
Audiendus
Posted: Sunday, January 6, 2019 11:04:06 PM
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Joined: 8/24/2011
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Location: London, England, United Kingdom
A cooperator,

I will not reply in detail to all your latest questions about adjectival participles.

There is often no clear distinction between a verbal participle and an adjectival participle. It is impossible to categorize all participles as one or the other.

Note that some dictionaries list 'spent' as an adjective:
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/spent
palapaguy
Posted: Monday, January 7, 2019 12:38:33 AM

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Audiendus wrote:
A cooperator,

I will not reply in detail to all your latest questions about adjectival participles.

Applause Applause Applause

A cooperator
Posted: Tuesday, January 8, 2019 6:26:28 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 10/27/2011
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Location: Ḩāḑírah, Hadramawt, Yemen
Audiendus wrote:
A cooperator wrote:
You think we usually use the past participle (-ed) to talk about someone’s feelings and the present participle (-ing) to talk about the cause of the feeling. So, do you think this can be applied for all the verbs in English regardless of they are transitive, intransitive or both.

What do you mean?

How would it apply to verbs that are not about feelings?


Audiendus,
I've read in Michael Sawn's book: Interested/interesting, excited/exciting, bored/boring, etc.
Interested, bored, ecieted etc say how people feel.
Interesting, boring, etc describe the people or things that cause the feelings.
so, I've been asking if this can be applied for all regular and irregular verbs regardless of if they are transitive, intransitive or both?




Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
A cooperator
Posted: Tuesday, January 8, 2019 6:30:41 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 10/27/2011
Posts: 3,145
Neurons: 11,746
Location: Ḩāḑírah, Hadramawt, Yemen
Audiendus wrote:
A cooperator wrote:
You think we usually use the past participle (-ed) to talk about someone’s feelings and the present participle (-ing) to talk about the cause of the feeling. So, do you think this can be applied for all the verbs in English regardless of they are transitive, intransitive or both.

What do you mean?

How would it apply to verbs that are not about feelings?


Audiendus,
I've read in Michael Sawn's book: Interested, and interesting, excited, exciting, bored, boring, etc.
Interested, bored, excited et say how people feel.
Interesting, boring, etc describe the people or things that cause the feelings.
so, I've been asking if this can be applied for all the regular and irregular verbs regardless of if they are transitive, intransitive or both?


Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
A cooperator
Posted: Tuesday, January 8, 2019 6:30:57 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 10/27/2011
Posts: 3,145
Neurons: 11,746
Location: Ḩāḑírah, Hadramawt, Yemen
Audiendus wrote:
A cooperator wrote:
You think we usually use the past participle (-ed) to talk about someone’s feelings and the present participle (-ing) to talk about the cause of the feeling. So, do you think this can be applied for all the verbs in English regardless of they are transitive, intransitive or both.

What do you mean?

How would it apply to verbs that are not about feelings?


Audiendus,
I've read in Michael Sawn's book: Interested, and interesting, excited, exciting, bored, boring, etc.
Interested, bored, excited et say how people feel.
Interesting, boring, etc describe the people or things that cause the feelings.
so, I've been asking if this can be applied for all the regular and irregular verbs regardless of if they are transitive, intransitive or both?


Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
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