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'on 13 November 2018, Tuesday, 11am' Vs 'at 11am, Tuesday, 13 November 2018'(Writing Times, Dates) Options
A cooperator
Posted: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 11:58:00 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

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Location: Ḩāḑírah, Hadramawt, Yemen
Hi Everyone!

Which is the right sequence?
Our live chat will begin/be held on 13 November 2018, Tuesday, 11am & 3pm GMT.
Our live chat will begin/be held at 11am & 3pm GMT, Tuesday, 13 November 2018.

Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
FounDit
Posted: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 12:59:38 PM

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A cooperator wrote:
Hi Everyone!

Which is the right sequence?
Our live chats will begin/be held on 13 November 2018, Tuesday, 11am & 3pm GMT.
Our live chats will begin/be held at 11am & 3pm GMT, Tuesday, 13 November 2018.


Both will work, but I suggest "chats" to indicate the two separate events.

As to the order, I suggest the second one which givs the times first, but that is a personal choice.


We should look to the past to learn from it, not destroy our future because of it — FounDit
A cooperator
Posted: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 1:30:03 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 10/27/2011
Posts: 2,969
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Location: Ḩāḑírah, Hadramawt, Yemen
FounDit wrote:
A cooperator wrote:
Hi Everyone!

Which is the right sequence?
Our live chats will begin/be held on 13 November 2018, Tuesday, 11am & 3pm GMT.
Our live chats will begin/be held at 11am & 3pm GMT, Tuesday, 13 November 2018.


Both will work, but I suggest "chats" to indicate the two separate events.

As to the order, I suggest the second one which givs the times first, but that is a personal choice.



Thanks a lot,

Woops! I've been so surprised by this correction since I was not expecting that 'chats' must have been consistent with the qualifier '11am & 3pm GMT' since I didn't consider '11am & 3pm GMT' as a qualifier since I always consider qualifiers follow a linking verbs/copula verb.

Our live chats are to be at 11am & 3pm GMT.
Our live chats were at 11am & 3pm GMT.

Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
Romany
Posted: Wednesday, November 14, 2018 7:23:29 AM
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Joined: 6/14/2009
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Location: Brighton, England, United Kingdom

In B/E the name of the day of the week would go first "Tuesday, November 13th....."

We don't use the year unless the year the event takes place is different to the year in which we are writing. As we are now approaching the end of this year we'd put "2019" for any events taking place from January onward. But if the event is taking place before December 31 this year we don't include it.
Sarrriesfan
Posted: Wednesday, November 14, 2018 7:42:20 AM

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Location: Luton, England, United Kingdom
I would say "Tuesday 13th of November..."rather than "Tuesday November 13th....."

In British English it's convention to use the day/month/year format on official forms, driving licences, passports etc. and so I just carry that over to everything,

I lack the imagination for a witty signature.
A cooperator
Posted: Wednesday, November 14, 2018 5:09:04 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 10/27/2011
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Location: Ḩāḑírah, Hadramawt, Yemen
Romany wrote:

In B/E the name of the day of the week would go first "Tuesday, November 13th....."

We don't use the year unless the year the event takes place is different to the year in which we are writing. As we are now approaching the end of this year we'd put "2019" for any events taking place from January onward. But if the event is taking place before December 31 this year we don't include it.



Thank you both of you, Romany, and Sarriesfan
Quite excellent mention which I doubt ever can be found at any grammar book.
With respect to the 'Brit/Amr', I have seen a US university notified with the time of a webinar like way:
This is to confirm that you have been registered for the information session/webinar on 11/15/2018 at 12:00pm - 1:00pm.(Amr)

But, I think even if the the format above was conventional to be used, I think it would have had to be spelt in spoken language(voice communication) as on November, fifteen, twenty eighteen, at twelve up to one pm.



Sarrriesfan wrote:
I would say "Tuesday 13th of November..."rather than "Tuesday November 13th....."

In British English it's convention to use the day/month/year format on official forms, driving licences, passports etc. and so I just carry that over to everything,


As Sarriesfan mentioned in his last post quoted above, another format within the same registration notification for the webinar to be hosted by a US university has been written as follows:
You are registered for Thursday, November 15th.


P.S. in spoken language, I can say:
I'd meet you at half past twelve AM, after midnight/ ante meridiem (12:30 AM) (Brit) <=> I'd meet you at half after twelve AM, after midnight/ ante meridiem (12:30 AM) (Amr).
I'd meet you at a quarter to twelve PM, afternoon/ post meridiem (11:45 PM) (Brit) <=> I'd meet you at a quarter of twelve PM, afternoon/ post meridiem (11:45 PM) (Amr).



Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
Sarrriesfan
Posted: Wednesday, November 14, 2018 7:09:22 PM

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I would probably write 12.30am as 00.30, we use the 24hr clock quite a lot in the UK.

This is my local train timetable.

https://www.thameslinkrailway.com/-/media/goahead/gtr-all-timetables/interim-timetables-july-2018/gtr1_dl_gtr-a.pdf?la=en

If I were speaking to someone I would say "I will meet you at 12.30/ half twelve/ half past twelve at night"

11.45pm is 15 minutes before midnight 23.45, 11.45am is 15 minutes before 12.00pm or noon.

In this case I would either say " I will meet you at a quarter to twelve or at 11.45 in the morning" there would not be any mention of the afternoon as it is not yet afternoon. 12.00 is noon precisely.

The use of am and pm is not common in normal speech here, it's use more in America where the 12hr clock is common.

However Drago, Romany and Thar will.have their own ideas.

I lack the imagination for a witty signature.
A cooperator
Posted: Saturday, November 17, 2018 9:16:43 AM

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Location: Ḩāḑírah, Hadramawt, Yemen
Sarrriesfan wrote:
I would probably write 12.30am as 00.30, we use the 24hr clock quite a lot in the UK.

This is my local train timetable.

https://www.thameslinkrailway.com/-/media/goahead/gtr-all-timetables/interim-timetables-july-2018/gtr1_dl_gtr-a.pdf?la=en

If I were speaking to someone I would say "I will meet you at 12.30/ half twelve/ half past twelve at night"

11.45pm is 15 minutes before midnight 23.45, 11.45am is 15 minutes before 12.00pm or noon.


Thanks a lot,
Firstly, but you think "at night" means "am".
Secondly, you never ever use "post meridiem" nor "ante meridiem".

Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
Sarrriesfan
Posted: Saturday, November 17, 2018 1:57:43 PM

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Joined: 3/30/2016
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Location: Luton, England, United Kingdom
A cooperator wrote:
Sarrriesfan wrote:
I would probably write 12.30am as 00.30, we use the 24hr clock quite a lot in the UK.

This is my local train timetable.

https://www.thameslinkrailway.com/-/media/goahead/gtr-all-timetables/interim-timetables-july-2018/gtr1_dl_gtr-a.pdf?la=en

If I were speaking to someone I would say "I will meet you at 12.30/ half twelve/ half past twelve at night"

11.45pm is 15 minutes before midnight 23.45, 11.45am is 15 minutes before 12.00pm or noon.


Thanks a lot,
Firstly, but you think "at night" means "am".
Secondly, you never ever use "post meridiem" nor "ante meridiem".


No "at night" to me means any time either pm or am that falls roughly between 21.00 and 06.00.

I hardly ever use am or pm in everyday speech, I would not say never though.

A lot of the time if I were to say 6 O'clock or at 6 , weither I mean am or pm will be clear due to context " I get up for work at 6" most people who know me will understand I mean the morning, it's only necessary to clarify which I mean if it ambiguous for some reason.

But again others will have their own ideas on this.

I lack the imagination for a witty signature.
A cooperator
Posted: Sunday, November 25, 2018 5:32:20 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 10/27/2011
Posts: 2,969
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Location: Ḩāḑírah, Hadramawt, Yemen
Sarrriesfan wrote:
A cooperator wrote:
Sarrriesfan wrote:
I would probably write 12.30am as 00.30, we use the 24hr clock quite a lot in the UK.

This is my local train timetable.

https://www.thameslinkrailway.com/-/media/goahead/gtr-all-timetables/interim-timetables-july-2018/gtr1_dl_gtr-a.pdf?la=en

If I were speaking to someone I would say "I will meet you at 12.30/ half twelve/ half past twelve at night"

11.45pm is 15 minutes before midnight 23.45, 11.45am is 15 minutes before 12.00pm or noon.


Thanks a lot,
Firstly, but you think "at night" means "am".
Secondly, you never ever use "post meridiem" nor "ante meridiem".


No "at night" to me means any time either pm or am that falls roughly between 21.00 and 06.00.

I hardly ever use am or pm in everyday speech, I would not say never though.

A lot of the time if I were to say 6 O'clock or at 6 , whether I mean am or pm will be clear due to context " I get up for work at 6" most people who know me will understand I mean the morning, it's only necessary to clarify which I mean if it ambiguous for some reason.

But again others will have their own ideas on this.


Thanks a lot,
It is strange not to say 'am', 'pm' or the full term 'ante meridiem' or 'post meridiem'. So, I don't think you're a native Enlish speaker although I see in your profile is in the UK.
If you're speaking to a stranger who don't know you, then you should say "am/after midnight/ ante meridiem" or 'PM, afternoon/ post meridiem' to let yourself be understood by him/her whether you're meaning.




Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
Sarrriesfan
Posted: Sunday, November 25, 2018 5:54:24 PM

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I was born and brought up in the same village as my father, his father and his father etc, before him going back centuries, I speak how a native speaker would because I am one.

It's probably because I am one that I speak and write far more casually than a person who has learnt English as a foreign learner does, I was speaking and absorbing the language how ordinary people speak it to my parents, grandparents, aunts, uncles, cousins and neighbours, etc. before I was taught the rules of grammar at school.

It is a matter of normal speech , I would not say "10.00am or ante meridian" to a strange if asked the time I am far more likely to say "10.00 in the morning"

I lack the imagination for a witty signature.
A cooperator
Posted: Saturday, December 1, 2018 5:55:10 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

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Location: Ḩāḑírah, Hadramawt, Yemen
Sarrriesfan wrote:
It is a matter of normal speech , I would not say "10.00am or ante meridian" to a strange if asked the time I am far more likely to say "10.00 in the morning"


Thanks a lot, Sarriesfan,
Yes, having said "I'd meet you at 10.00 in the morning", I could understand you mean "10.00am or ante meridian"
On the other hand, "I'd meet you at 10.00 in the evening", I could understand you mean "10.00pm or post meridian".

Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
Romany
Posted: Saturday, December 1, 2018 8:01:53 AM
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Location: Brighton, England, United Kingdom
Coop,

"It is strange not to say 'am', 'pm' or the full term 'ante meridiem' or 'post meridiem'. "

No it isn't. It would be strange if one did say it. And as for ante and post meridian - the majority of modern English speakers would have no idea what that even meant.

Language is spoken - it doesn't live in grammar books, but in the people who speak it. When you extract a sentence from a book you have to imagine it being used and in what circumstances.

There's usually no reason at all to even mention am or pm because, unlike in a book, sentences don't just appear on their own. They are a part of a conversation. So "See you at 9." as a sentence on it's own would indeed be ambiguous.

But if two people are talking about going shopping tomorrow, no-one would think it meant 9 in the evening.
If they are talking about a party both are going to the next evening, it would be equally obvious that they didn't mean 9 in the morning.

But in a situation where it really could be either ("Let's meet for a coffee on Wednesday at 9.") in speech we wouldn't naturally say "A.m or p.m?" but "Morning or evening?"

Also, it's extremely rude for a learner at an intermediate stage to tell a native speaker that they can't speak English as well as you - especially when what you're saying is completely wrong. You distressed Sarries with your comment - which you could tell by his response if you spoke English as well as you'd like to.And not to apologise when he explained that you were wrong in your assumption is equally rude. In English.

Words aren't just squiggles on paper. They have power. They can hurt and they can please. Learning any language includes learning HOW to use words in that language so that you don't hurt/distress others or appear rude.It's also a matter of respecting the conventions in a language that native speakers have evolved after centuries of use.
A cooperator
Posted: Saturday, December 1, 2018 7:22:19 PM

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Location: Ḩāḑírah, Hadramawt, Yemen
I was not meaning by every sense of the word that Sarrriesfan he has not been speaking English like native English speakers at all. However, having said 'So, I don't think you're a native English speaker although I see in your profile is in the UK.', I meant to stress on saying if neither do all native English speakers use 'am', or the full term 'ante meridiem', nor do they use 'pm' or the full term 'post meridiem'.
It might not be the way I naturally expressed it, but I should awfully apologize if I expressed it wrongly.


I always see in the written English is said 'noon', 'midnight', 'am', 'pm' or the full term 'ante meridiem' or 'post meridiem'.
We are running a Pre-Admissions Webinar on Wednesday, December 5th at 12 noon EST.
This is to confirm that you have been registered for the information session/webinar on 12/05/2018 at 5:00pm - 7:00pm.


But, you now confirm that in the spoken English, we can say the time without followings:
At 12 in the evening, at 12 in the morning, at 12 at night, at 12.00 noon precisely, at 12.00 midnight precisely, at 12:30am, at 12:30pm, at 12:30 ante meridiem' or at 12:30 post meridiem.



Sarrriesfan said that "at night" to him means any time either pm or am that falls roughly between 21.00 and 06.00.

I understand that at night would fall from 9pm up to 6am (from 21.00 for the 24hr clock up to 6am) (indicating with red colour in the screenshot below), which means 6pm up to 8pm (from 18:00 up to 20:00 for the 24hr clock) isn't at night, but it is in the evening, indicating with no colour in the screenshot below)?
Also, midnight would fall at 12am (24 for the 24hr clock)
Also, in the morning would fall from 7am up to 11:59am, indicating with blue colour in the screenshot below.
Also, noon would be at 12pm.
Also, afternoon would fall from 12:01pm up to 05:59pm(from 12:01pm up to 17:59 for 24hr clock), indicating with black colour in the screenshot below.




Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
RuthP
Posted: Saturday, December 1, 2018 8:09:47 PM

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A cooperator wrote:
I was not meaning by every sense of the word that Sarrriesfan he has not been speaking English like native English speakers at all. However, having said 'So, I don't think you're a native English speaker although I see in your profile is in the UK.', I meant to stress on saying if neither do all native English speakers use 'am', or the full term 'ante meridiem', nor do they use 'pm' or the full term 'post meridiem'.
It might not be the way I naturally expressed it, but I should awfully apologize if I expressed it wrongly.


I always see in the written English is said 'noon', 'midnight', 'am', 'pm' or the full term 'ante meridiem' or 'post meridiem'.
We are running a Pre-Admissions Webinar on Wednesday, December 5th at 12 noon EST.
This is to confirm that you have been registered for the information session/webinar on 12/05/2018 at 5:00pm - 7:00pm.


But, you now confirm that in the spoken English, we can say the time without followings:
At 12 in the evening, at 12 in the morning, at 12 at night, at 12.00 noon precisely, at 12.00 midnight precisely, at 12:30am, at 12:30pm, at 12:30 ante meridiem' or at 12:30 post meridiem.
Wow! This is interesting. A few things, in no particular order.
1) A lot of native English speakers have no idea what the words of A.M. and P.M. stand for. They simply know A.M. means morning, and if pressed would probably say before noon and after midnight, which is more accurate than "morning". Similarly, they know P.M. means night, or--again more accurately--after noon and before midnight.
2) Use of either A.M. or P.M. with 1200 (12:00) is ambiguous. It is possible to find systems defining either as midnight or noon. It is far better to use "twelve noon" or "twelve midnight". I admit to a preference, based on the actual meaning of the words "ante meridiem" and "post meridiem", that neither noon or midnight can be A.M. or P.M. One could argue about midnight, but as the terms mean either before or after "noon", "noon" cannot really be labeled with either one.




Sarrriesfan said that "at night" to him means any time either pm or am that falls roughly between 21.00 and 06.00.

I understand that at night would fall from 9pm up to 6am (from 21.00 for the 24hr clock up to 6am) (red colour in the screenshot below), which means 6pm up to 8pm (from 18:00 up to 20:00 for the 24hr clock) isn't at night, but it is in the evening, indicating with no colour in the screenshot below)?
Also, midnight would fall at 12am (24 for the 24hr clock)
Also, in the morning would fall from 7am up to 11:59am, blue colour in the screenshot below.
Also, noon would be at 12pm.
Also, afternoon would fall from 12:01pm up to 05:59pm(from 12:01pm up to 17:59 for 24hr clock), black colour in the screenshot below.

When considering the terms morning, afternoon, evening, and night, it is well to remember these are social constructs. Thus, the times they describe vary a lot. They have varied historically: "night" starts a lot earlier without electrical lights, especially if one is too poor to afford too many candles. So, not only historically, but also by class/resources.

3) Sticking with today as opposed to historically, "morning" is highly dependent upon when one is awake/rises from bed. Thus, for someone like me, who habitually starts work between 0500 and 0600, these early hours are definitely all "morning" and definitely not "night".
4) More on rising: If one is awakened very early, say by a phone call, or if one gets up very early, say to go fishing, the hour of rising/waking is apt to be called "morning", regardless of how close to midnight it is: "My cousin was in a car accident. She called me at three in the morning to come pick her up from the hospital." Realize, however, that if the speaker chose not to specify a time, she would probably say "I had to pick my cousin up at the ER in the middle of the night!" (With the implication "I should have been sleeping!")
5) Sometimes, this works when things end, too: Where I live, bars must close at 0200 and not reopen until 0600. Bar closing is at two in the morning. This even works for bed times past midnight: "I was studying for my exam and I didn't get to bed until one in the morning."
6) Talking about "morning" without these examples, however, the times you've defined are reasonable. Most people probably think of "morning" as starting sometime between about 0600 and 0900. This reflects their own, personal lifestyle.
7) "Afternoon", "evening", and "night" have similar considerations, though it will be agreed "afternoon" starts immediately, well, after noon.
8) "Evening" may start as early as 1700 (I've actually known rural families with small children who feel evening starts at 1600--that's very unusual.) or it may start as late as 2000. Families with small children generally define "evening" as starting considerably earlier than young singles, whose "evening" starts after work, after dinner, when they are ready to go out on the town.
9) The time one's "night" starts will be heavily dependent upon when "evening" started. Someone with a 1700 evening, probably starts night at 2100, possibly even 2000. On the other hand, a young night-owl may not consider it "night" until, say, 2300!
10) About the only definitive things you can say about these terms are: "Morning" does not occur between noon and the next midnight, and "afternoon" does not occur between midnight and the next noon. Everything else is fungible.




Romany
Posted: Saturday, December 1, 2018 9:26:51 PM
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Coop -

I think by now we know the things you - and many other learners - say are not meant to be rude. But even though we know that, sometimes it makes us feel cross inside because our feelings are hurt.Learning to think - not of translating it from another language - but how we speak to each other is as important as learning vocabulary.

And yes, in spoken English we rarely need to ask/give anything at all after the number. If you ask someone in the street the time, why would there be any need to know if it was am/pm or any other signifier?

If she says "Five to twelve" you look around yourself. In most countries if the sun is up it's five minutes to midday; and if it's dark you know it's five minutes to 12 midnight.

When it's written there is NO context.

A class/meeting/shift could be sheduled for either 8 in the morning or 8 in the evening; a workshift could start equally at midday or midnight. So clarification is needed. That's when you have to ensure it's perfectly clear there's no confusion, or excuses.

In most cases we'd just ask "Morning or evening?" or "Morning or night?" depending on whether we were referring to before/after 10pm.

In spoken English we just don't say 'ante/post meridian'.I expect it may be said in the Navy? Or in certain scientific disciplines? The terms are not Common Usage. Don't use them.

Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Sunday, December 2, 2018 6:35:52 AM

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Hi Romany (and everyone).
I'm pretty sure that there is no such usage in the Navy or any scientific discipline.

The services use the standardised twenty-four hour GMT (even in summer), as far as I know - so what would commonly be "3 in the morning on June the second" would be "Oh-two-hundred".

In sixty years in Britain (and a few years in the USA), I have never heard anyone say "ante meridiem" or "post meridiem" - I'm sure that many people don't even know the words. It would be VERY strange to hear anyone say that.

In my experience, the normal phrases would be something like:
Three in the morning - 0300
Quarter to midnight - 2345
Quarter to twelve (if it's obvious that you mean day or night) - 2345 or 1145
Half-past-twelve in the morning - 0030
Midnight - 0000
Noon - 1200
Twenty past seven ('in the evening' or 'at night') - 1920
Twenty to eleven (at night) - 2240
Five past four (in the afternoon) - 1605

As Ruth says, the boundary between 'evening' and night' moves. Here, in the summer, the sun doesn't go down till ten or later. In the winter, it's dark by four.
I do night shifts starting at seven - and I do day shifts ending at seven - so that tends to be MY change-over time.

The 'boundary' between 'night' and 'morning' can also shift - but "one in the morning" is probably more common than "one at night" for 0100.

Wyrd bið ful aræd - bull!
Romany
Posted: Sunday, December 2, 2018 7:51:09 PM
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Drago,
Well, I didn't really think the Navy could use them: I was thinking back to old dusty ledgers in the files of the Lords of the Admiralty; more than Jolly Jack Tars.

But Coop didn't seem to be convinced when I said most people wouldn'd even know what it meant, let alone use it. He kept on using it so I figured perhaps he had come upon it being used in some specialised contemporary English somewhere.

Like you, I've not, except for someone reading from an old document, ever heard the words spoken. (Though I have some very vague recollections of various terms thrown about in various *Crossing the Line ceremonies!)

*the slapstick ceremony on board when a ship crosses the equator.
Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Monday, December 3, 2018 3:35:29 AM

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Ah! You mean in the diary of the leader of the Queen's Navy, after he finished polishing up the handle on the big front door?

"In post meridiem
you must pronounce the 'm'.
Any other sound
makes my head go round."

Gilberto Sullivan - hypothetical poet.

Yes - likely in the nineteenth century, some pompous people may have actually said "ante meridiem" and "post meridiem".

Wyrd bið ful aræd - bull!
Romany
Posted: Monday, December 3, 2018 6:03:40 AM
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Yep, pretty much! But that G & S fragment sent me on a hunt.

I became a bit confused with why I kept on associating the phrase in question with compass points and maps (hence my constant "sea" associations) until I read those first two lines you provided from Pinafore...and it struck me: of course! I'd also allowed "my head to go round" by not observing the enconium being sung about!

"Meridian" ending with an "n" DOES, of course, refer to the map point that kept intruding into my mind - while "meridiem" is the one referring to midday!

As a very well-known thinker would say "D'oh!".
Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Monday, December 3, 2018 7:56:56 AM

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It's not surprising really - it's been like that for centuries. Time and space are interconnected.

Degrees (measuring angles) are divided into sixty minutes and 360 seconds when you get into fine engineering.
Fifteen degrees of longitude is called 'an hour longitude'.
I mean . . . ships used to check their positions by using a very accurate Ship's Chronometer!

(PS - that little rhyme is not Pinafore, really - I just mocked up the style and rhythm. Shhh Shhh Shhh )

Wyrd bið ful aræd - bull!
Audiendus
Posted: Monday, December 3, 2018 10:18:17 AM
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A minute is the "first small part" of an hour or degree (Latin: pars minuta prima). Dividing by 60 again gives the "second small part" (pars minuta secunda).

Meridiem is the accusative of meridies, "noon".


Some more pseudo-Gilbert:

If you're high up in the Navy, you should always say 'meridiem',
Like government officials in a national presidium.
Though humble petty officers and seamen may abbreviate,
An admiral has verbal rules from which he shouldn't deviate.
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