The Free Dictionary  
mailing list For webmasters
Welcome Guest Forum Search | Active Topics | Members

"Nationalism"? Options
Romany
Posted: Monday, October 29, 2018 5:24:18 PM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 6/14/2009
Posts: 14,543
Neurons: 45,420
Location: Brighton, England, United Kingdom
I had thought I'd identified the main differences in meaning in common words in AE/BE; and that I had, in addition, a good grip on the differences in meanings between Trumpists/everybody else. ( 'professor', 'Socialism' etc.) but this time I'm stymied.

It's not just one sector that is outraged/disturbed by the "I am a Nationalist" comment however: it seems that people all over the country are united in condemning this statement?

Oh, I know now that even the word itself has a kind of apartheid division if the words "Black" or "White" precede it.

But they didn't. He just said he was a "Nationalist" - which isn't news. He's made no secret of the fact that he wants America to retreat into some cocoon and just "do what's best" for America. He platformed on it.

So why is there so much reaction to his use of the word? I checked up in an online American dictionary (Miriam-Webster) which acknowledged that this word had been the most looked-up word over the past few days. Their definition: -

"Nationalism is defined as "loyalty and devotion to a nation," especially "exalting one nation above all others and placing primary emphasis on promotion of its culture and interests as opposed to those of other nations or supranational groups."
A nationalist is one who advocates for or believes in such."

Once again - this is a position he's been taking all along. So even their definition does nothing to help this bewildered Brit understand the furore?




FounDit
Posted: Monday, October 29, 2018 6:14:43 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 9/19/2011
Posts: 9,725
Neurons: 51,343
Romany wrote:
I had thought I'd identified the main differences in meaning in common words in AE/BE; and that I had, in addition, a good grip on the differences in meanings between Trumpists/everybody else. ( 'professor', 'Socialism' etc.) but this time I'm stymied.

It's not just one sector that is outraged/disturbed by the "I am a Nationalist" comment however: it seems that people all over the country are united in condemning this statement?

Oh, I know now that even the word itself has a kind of apartheid division if the words "Black" or "White" precede it.

But they didn't. He just said he was a "Nationalist" - which isn't news. He's made no secret of the fact that he wants America to retreat into some cocoon and just "do what's best" for America. He platformed on it.

So why is there so much reaction to his use of the word? I checked up in an online American dictionary (Miriam-Webster) which acknowledged that this word had been the most looked-up word over the past few days. Their definition: -

"Nationalism is defined as "loyalty and devotion to a nation," especially "exalting one nation above all others and placing primary emphasis on promotion of its culture and interests as opposed to those of other nations or supranational groups."
A nationalist is one who advocates for or believes in such."

Once again - this is a position he's been taking all along. So even their definition does nothing to help this bewildered Brit understand the furore?

It's really simple Romany: No matter what Trump says, it's horrible to the Democrazies (that includes the Far Left and the Media) and some Repulsicans. Someone once said that if he cured cancer, the Left would condemn him for putting doctors out of business. Different day, same ol' crap.





We should look to the past to learn from it, not destroy our future because of it — FounDit
dennis j
Posted: Monday, October 29, 2018 8:16:02 PM

Rank: Newbie

Joined: 1/2/2014
Posts: 40
Neurons: 1,791,412
Location: Chicago, Illinois, United States
If President Trump walked on water the Press would say he couldn't swim
Hope123
Posted: Monday, October 29, 2018 10:26:06 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 3/23/2015
Posts: 8,400
Neurons: 48,082
Location: Burlington, Ontario, Canada
Hi Romany.

This article probably explains how the non Trumpers are thinking.

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2018/10/trump-nationalist-gop-violence.html

Nationalism is the protectionist definition that you understand and Trump used it that way too, apparently (I'm only quoting, I did not see the video) distinguishing " nationalists from “globalists,” people who, according to Trump, care more about the world than about their own tribe....

What American non-Trump supporters are afraid of is that Trump also means White Nationalist - who love him. Only begrudgingly did he backtrack a bit denouncing White Nationalists but he didn't mean it. He was back at it again later.

A president can call himself a nationalist without hurting people. But if he also seeks to divide people by race, ethnicity, and religion, his nationalism becomes insidious. If he endorses violence, he puts people’s lives in danger. And if his party falls in line behind him, the ingredients for a catastrophe are in place. A day after Trump celebrated Gianforte’s assault on Jacobs, a Republican official in Montana called in to a radio show to say she would have gone further. “If that kid had done to me what he did to Greg, I would have shot him,” she said.

The kid, Jacobs, is a reporter whose crime was to try to ask a question of a senator. For that she called for death.

Trump attacks the press nearly every day. He was rude to them on day one - cut them off, said nasty things, lies, won't let them talk, and definitely won't answer unless it is news he wants out. The press needs to start calling him out for this disrespectful treatment, instead of covering his rallies and being distracted by minutiae. And he and his supporters can't figure out why they don't like him.

The reporter incident is not a single instance. Violence has increased since Trump. When a Trump supporter sent bombs to what was it - 12 - Democrats and press that Trump himself targeted, he blamed the Democrats. He makes big terrorist news when a Muslim attacks somewhere, but nary a word about white shooters - except maybe that they had mental problems.

(I'd love to know if the taxpayer pays for all these rallies and secret service and air force one. Right now is campaign time, but he has never stopped campaigning.)

Sometimes it is not what he says, but what he doesn't say.

There's a video spiced together of many things he has said at rallies hinting at and encouraging violence against his poitical opponents and anyone who disagrees with him. It is no secret that white immigrants are favoured and people of different colours and cultures are not welcome.





Two threads about recent violence :

http://forum.thefreedictionary.com/postst186194_Is-There-More-Violence-Today-or-Just-Better-Communication-.aspx
http://forum.thefreedictionary.com/postst186296_Woman--brutally-punched--for-speaking-Spanish-in-London.aspx

The past is to be respected/acknowledged, not worshipped. It is in our future we will find our greatness. Pierre Trudeau
progpen
Posted: Tuesday, October 30, 2018 2:14:52 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 10/2/2015
Posts: 1,860
Neurons: 304,705
Location: Haddington, Scotland, United Kingdom
The whiners out there, shrieking and wailing about how victimized the president is, are the ones who know exactly what he means when he says "Nationalist". It's dog whistle politics again, so when the extremists get called out for the context of their statements they can fall back on, "But I didn't really MEAN that" and can play the victim.

Nolite te bastardes carborundorum
Romany
Posted: Tuesday, October 30, 2018 8:27:14 AM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 6/14/2009
Posts: 14,543
Neurons: 45,420
Location: Brighton, England, United Kingdom

Progpen - Well "the whiners" might get it, but I still don't.

Perhaps I should have put this in the Vocab. sector? I'm not making any kind of political statement or anything here - I simply want to know why the word "Nationalist" seems to have excited? disgusted? inflamed? so many people. (and to tell the truth, though I hear it all the time, I'm not particularly clear on what "dog-whistle politics" means either.)

Hope - I understand all the issues about Trump and his rhetoric & influence. But I cannot understand how his (accurate) portrayal of himself as a Nationalist (as opposed to Globalist, sure, but in every other way too) is so inflammatory? His followers - as well of people from all kinds of political or social groups - are all Nationalists too:it's part and parcel of a bi-partisan political ideology.

No-one is saying he announced himself as a "White Nationalist". Considering his record for outright lies, I can't see why, on one of the rare occasions when he accurately presented a truthful statement, American news sources are treating it as if he'd admitted something new and unsuspected?
Hope123
Posted: Tuesday, October 30, 2018 11:31:44 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 3/23/2015
Posts: 8,400
Neurons: 48,082
Location: Burlington, Ontario, Canada
Rom,

You are looking at one word from a purely linguistic POV and therefore it does not make sense that some American people are reading more into it by adding the history of what he has been saying and doing since long before he even thought of becoming president.

Remember when FD's argument was that Trump spoke in the language of the people and could not be taken literally?

Well now they are saying one word should be taken literally with no double entendre.

So which way is it? Answer - whatever suits the situation.

The timing is suspect too - he now labels himself a nationalist to stir up his base to vote in the midterms. That means showing them he means business and wanting support for overriding the constitution re citizenship of babies born there; it means sending 4500 troops to the border to stop 7000 refugees - refugees that are there partly because the US gave aid to the violent Honduran dictator when they knew it was a coup. That means all the other ways he has tried to keep out non whites, even separating children from their parents as a tactic. All this is exactly what his supporters want and they understand that too, all the while crying foul.

You say "when he accurately presented a truthful statement (for once). Well maybe it really was only partly truthful which is what Americans suspect given his history of lying. What he doesn't say or doesn't say till prompted often tells more.

So even if he was innocently saying "Protectionist", Americans who are not supporters see through the tactics, and as I said, the base understands it too and are encouraged to vote for him and his choices.

Or - The story of the "Boy Who Cried Wolf" comes to mind. Since he lies so much nobody believes him when he tells the truth?

Edited: I looked up what Trump actually said and he knew he was not supposed to use it but defiantly did. Just like the word snowflake, the word nationalist has become appropriated - "It is a favourite of the alt-right and is loaded with nativist and racial undertones.”

http://www.colchestercollection.com/titles/N/nationalist-perspective.html


The past is to be respected/acknowledged, not worshipped. It is in our future we will find our greatness. Pierre Trudeau
progpen
Posted: Tuesday, October 30, 2018 4:05:19 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 10/2/2015
Posts: 1,860
Neurons: 304,705
Location: Haddington, Scotland, United Kingdom
Sorry Romany and Hope. I am most certainly using his past history to fill in the gaps in his communication. Dog Whistle politics is when politicians speak in code with words that have multiple meanings. In the US, the GOP used code words for decades to talk about damn near everything that Trump has done. Condone bigotry, misogyny, homophobia, etc.. Most often you will hear it used in their attacks on Social Security, immigration, education, separation of church and state. They will make a statement that to most people will mean one thing (usually a benign statement) but to their base will mean something entirely different.

Dog Whistle Politics: How Coded Racial Appeals Have Reinvented Racism and Wrecked the Middle Class
by Ian Haney López (Author)
https://www.amazon.com/Dog-Whistle-Politics-Appeals-Reinvented/dp/019022925X

Nolite te bastardes carborundorum
Y111
Posted: Wednesday, October 31, 2018 2:18:27 AM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 6/25/2017
Posts: 252
Neurons: 1,239
Location: Kurgan, Kurgan, Russia
Hope123 wrote:
What American non-Trump supporters are afraid of is that Trump also means White Nationalist - who love him.

But what is "White Nationalist"? There is the white race, but no white nation. What does this term mean?
Romany
Posted: Wednesday, October 31, 2018 5:10:02 AM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 6/14/2009
Posts: 14,543
Neurons: 45,420
Location: Brighton, England, United Kingdom
Hope & Proggy,

Thank you - that's what I was after: - the reason that the word "Nationalist" rang so many loud bells! And Proggy's "coded language" is exactly what I've been researching: the use of language to mean something different from the way it is codified for the rest of the world. The disruption of language and it's accepted meanings: - one of the most powerful tools manipulated in this whole disastrous mess.

Y111 - this is another instance of how the same language can be used by different groups of people to present radically different ideas.

A "white Nationalist" refers to racial bigots on the Right, while a "black Nationalist" is a bigot on the Left. That's not how it's described - but it's how the word "Nationalist" turns into a racist and divisive category that is really astonishing to people in other First World countries.

Learning how the "code" Proggy spoke about works is fundamental to understanding what's coming out of America these days.
Y111
Posted: Wednesday, October 31, 2018 11:16:04 AM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 6/25/2017
Posts: 252
Neurons: 1,239
Location: Kurgan, Kurgan, Russia
Another strange thing is that Trump is called a misogynist. For a man who hates women, he has been married a bit too often. If you hate women, why would you want to grab them by the pussy? If I hated someone, I'd try to be as far from them as possible.
Lotje1000
Posted: Wednesday, October 31, 2018 11:24:49 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 11/3/2014
Posts: 988
Neurons: 486,370
Location: Leuven, Flanders, Belgium
Y111 wrote:
Another strange thing is that Trump is called a misogynist. For a man who hates women, he has been married a bit too often. If you hate women, why would you want to grab them by the pussy? If I hated someone, I'd try to be as far from them as possible.


From the Cambridge dictionary: "feelings of hating women, or the belief that men are much better than women"
He doesn't respect women, that doesn't mean he can't be married to them. It does make it very easy for him to talk about grabbing them by the pussy without their consent.
Hope123
Posted: Wednesday, October 31, 2018 11:32:08 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 3/23/2015
Posts: 8,400
Neurons: 48,082
Location: Burlington, Ontario, Canada
Y111,

You are correct that there is no white nation. It is just a way of lumping into a group. For instance they are calling the cult of people extremely loyal to a family of male politicians in Ontario called Ford, "Ford Nation".

Some people keep the terms white nationalism and white supremacy separate, while others use them interchangeably.
White Nationalists maintain white people are a race and they seek to make sure a country's majority is white, think that their culture is the most important, and that it should be dominant. They think the white race is being threatened.

White Supremacists believe that white people are superior to nonwhites. Nazis are an example.

They both espouse racial violence so there really is no difference. They are mostly from the political Right.

Rom, I had not heard about Black Nationalism referring to the Left. That's interesting.


Edited - as I post I see your second question, Y111.

Trump disrespects and uses women. I started to say he doesn't hate them, but maybe disrespecting and using them is a form of hate. The way he treats them is why he has had so many wives. He feels superior to them. Well actually he gives the message he is superior to everybody, but whether or not that is actually how he feels only he knows.

Edited - cross posted with Lotje.

The past is to be respected/acknowledged, not worshipped. It is in our future we will find our greatness. Pierre Trudeau
A cooperator
Posted: Wednesday, October 31, 2018 1:43:56 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 10/27/2011
Posts: 2,879
Neurons: 10,562
Location: Ḩāḑírah, Hadramawt, Yemen
Y111 wrote:
Another strange thing is that Trump is called a misogynist. For a man who hates women, he has been married a bit too often. If you hate women, why would you want to grab them by the pussy? If I hated someone, I'd try to be as far from them as possible.


Hello, Y111, those calling him as a woman-hater have got to be kidding! How would he have been being called as antifeminist while he has his spoiled son. Is his son a adopted son?
Even if his son was born of parents not married to each other, that would mean he still likes women during lovemaking.

I think they must have meant he definitely hates Muslims who are not rich.

Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
FounDit
Posted: Wednesday, October 31, 2018 2:17:09 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 9/19/2011
Posts: 9,725
Neurons: 51,343
Trump himself defined what he meant by Nationalist when he said it was someone who loves their country and puts its interest above Globalism. He believes the U.S. can do the most good, both for its own citizens and other people in the world, when the U.S. is strong, safe, and prosperous. What other country do people all over the world seek help from when disaster strikes? Russia? China? Please.

Everything else written here is fear-mongering and lies. Trump doesn't speak in code, there is no White-Nationalist movement, and there are no dog whistles. That's just stupid talk by stupid people.


We should look to the past to learn from it, not destroy our future because of it — FounDit
Hope123
Posted: Wednesday, October 31, 2018 2:34:23 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 3/23/2015
Posts: 8,400
Neurons: 48,082
Location: Burlington, Ontario, Canada
FounDit wrote:
Trump himself defined what he meant by Nationalist when he said it was someone who loves their country and puts its interest above Globalism. He believes the U.S. can do the most good, both for its own citizens and other people in the world, when the U.S. is strong, safe, and prosperous. What other country do people all over the world seek help from when disaster strikes? Russia? China? Please.

Everything else written here is fear-mongering and lies. Trump doesn't speak in code, there is no White-Nationalist movement, and there are no dog whistles. That's just stupid talk by stupid people.


Oh please, FD. I remember distinctly discussions with you during the campaign where YOU said Trump was not to be taken literally.

The past is to be respected/acknowledged, not worshipped. It is in our future we will find our greatness. Pierre Trudeau
FounDit
Posted: Wednesday, October 31, 2018 3:07:10 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 9/19/2011
Posts: 9,725
Neurons: 51,343
Hope123 wrote:
FounDit wrote:
Trump himself defined what he meant by Nationalist when he said it was someone who loves their country and puts its interest above Globalism. He believes the U.S. can do the most good, both for its own citizens and other people in the world, when the U.S. is strong, safe, and prosperous. What other country do people all over the world seek help from when disaster strikes? Russia? China? Please.

Everything else written here is fear-mongering and lies. Trump doesn't speak in code, there is no White-Nationalist movement, and there are no dog whistles. That's just stupid talk by stupid people.


Oh please, FD. I remember distinctly discussions with you during the campaign where YOU said Trump was not to be taken literally.


Sometimes I joke, sometimes I tease, sometimes I try to be provocative and make someone think, and I am just as often, if not more so, very serious.

So, too, is the President. People listening to him just have to be intelligent enough to recognize the difference. Unfortunately, that number seems to be very small.


We should look to the past to learn from it, not destroy our future because of it — FounDit
Hope123
Posted: Wednesday, October 31, 2018 6:28:57 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 3/23/2015
Posts: 8,400
Neurons: 48,082
Location: Burlington, Ontario, Canada
Foundit wrote: So, too, is the President. People listening to him just have to be intelligent enough to recognize the difference. Unfortunately, that number seems to be very small.

You mean fortunately that number is small.







The past is to be respected/acknowledged, not worshipped. It is in our future we will find our greatness. Pierre Trudeau
Y111
Posted: Thursday, November 1, 2018 4:04:57 AM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 6/25/2017
Posts: 252
Neurons: 1,239
Location: Kurgan, Kurgan, Russia
Lotje1000 wrote:
From the Cambridge dictionary: "feelings of hating women, or the belief that men are much better than women"

But those are two different things. You can see someone as inferior to you and still love them. Take dogs and cats for example. Even if a man loves his dog, he still expects the dog to obey his commands and know its place. On the other hand, he can hate someone who he considers to be equal or even superior. I don't see how these two ideas (hatred and inferiority) are connected.

According to the above definition, two men, one of whom hates and avoids women and the other likes them and seeks their company are both misogynists. That seems odd. In that case hatred is irrelevant and should be removed from the definition. However, it seems to be the primary idea in it.
Kirill Vorobyov
Posted: Thursday, November 1, 2018 4:47:32 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 10/4/2016
Posts: 522
Neurons: 2,712
Location: Moscow, Moscow, Russia
FounDit wrote:
What other country do people all over the world seek help from when disaster strikes? Russia? China? Please.


That's in your part of the world. On this side countries often call on Russia for help.

It is true though that, at least af far as I can see, the public opinion in Russia is now not so much in favor of making gracious and unsubstantiated gifts to other nations, as we so obviously have lots to do and lots to fix in our own country.

This is not to say that we are not making those gifts anymore though. Our government is divided as everywhere.
Lotje1000
Posted: Thursday, November 1, 2018 5:16:54 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 11/3/2014
Posts: 988
Neurons: 486,370
Location: Leuven, Flanders, Belgium
Y111 wrote:
Lotje1000 wrote:
From the Cambridge dictionary: "feelings of hating women, or the belief that men are much better than women"

But those are two different things. You can see someone as inferior to you and still love them. Take dogs and cats for example. Even if a man loves his dog, he still expects the dog to obey his commands and know its place. On the other hand, he can hate someone who he considers to be equal or even superior. I don't see how these two ideas (hatred and inferiority) are connected.

According to the above definition, two men, one of whom hates and avoids women and the other likes them and seeks their company are both misogynists. That seems odd. In that case hatred is irrelevant and should be removed from the definition. However, it seems to be the primary idea in it.


A person doesn't have to actively avoid women to be misogynist. In fact, a very common form of misogyny is the overly patronising approach of liking them and wanting to protect them because they're so precious they can't take care of themselves. Or an expectation that the woman will obey the man's commands and know her place.

It can be a hatred, it can be a dislike and it most often is a feeling that women are inferior.
progpen
Posted: Thursday, November 1, 2018 5:20:35 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 10/2/2015
Posts: 1,860
Neurons: 304,705
Location: Haddington, Scotland, United Kingdom
Kirill is right. We in the US can only see the world through our American lense and even when we get our news from overseas, we don't get the whole picture.

Nolite te bastardes carborundorum
Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Thursday, November 1, 2018 1:16:28 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 9/12/2011
Posts: 30,406
Neurons: 179,317
Location: Livingston, Scotland, United Kingdom
Romany.

The reason the word 'Nationalist' caused such a reaction is that it is not understood.

Like this comment.

philips daughter wrote:
Trump said he was a “nationalist”. Go Nazi’s!


Nationalist = Nazi = evil = ??? god knows.

Wyrd bið ful aræd - bull!
thar
Posted: Thursday, November 1, 2018 1:24:16 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 7/8/2010
Posts: 18,001
Neurons: 73,042
Has someone told the SNP that?
Is it safe to visit Scotland?
Still, it has to be better than Denmark or Jaywick, according to certain Americans. Whistle
Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Thursday, November 1, 2018 1:26:11 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 9/12/2011
Posts: 30,406
Neurons: 179,317
Location: Livingston, Scotland, United Kingdom
Yeah - I mean, they're welfare state = Socialist = Communist = Anti-American = evil = ??? god knows.

Yeah - we know that the Nordic countries are among the happiest, among the fastest growing, amongst the most stable financially, etc, etc. but it's EVIL!


Wyrd bið ful aræd - bull!
Romany
Posted: Thursday, November 1, 2018 1:30:34 PM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 6/14/2009
Posts: 14,543
Neurons: 45,420
Location: Brighton, England, United Kingdom
Proggy,

Yes you're right: many Americans know nothing about the rest of the world and make all their judgements about it using the USA as their benchmark.I think most educated Americans keep themselves informed and don't share this parochial viewpoint - well, at least none of the American colleagues/friends/associates I've had throughout my life.(Besides which, of course, they all have - and use - passports!).

Now that I understand how "Nationalism" works in AE, I can rather see what all the chat about Trump's usage is about:- Because his followers have a narrow, parochial outlook, any unscrupulous Politician has absolute carte blanche to present the country as superior to every other place in the world. A Politician tells them they are the richest country in the world ( not even close), the most powerful country in the world (they don't understand about Russia or China or what, god help us, would happen if the two formed an alliance); the most envied country in the world, ( I won't even bother with that dubious claim); "the greatest Empire the world has ever seen" - (once again not even close. And America doesn't even have an "empire" in the way other countries understand the term).

The most pertinant b.s. they have all accepted uncritically atm is the refugee "crisis". They are told they are the No.1 target for refugees - once again, not even close. (Turkey is No.1 btw). That they are taken advantage of by "the whole world" because "everyone" wants to go live in America. (Not even an iota of truth in that one). That they - and they alone - have this problem.

And Fox never mentions WHY there is a problem in Central America, or what part America played in it. Or the fact that every country in the world is beset by the vulnerable, the poor, the displaced, the desperate...and are working together and sharing information and communication, to help out and to come up with ways in which to handle this global tragedy. So far, none of them have come up with the idea of sending in armies to shoot desperate of mothers, grandparents, parents, children.

And it is never mentioned that all countries have an obligation to help humanity. It's how human beings see themselves in 2018. All asylum seekers, at every border in the world, must be able to enter the country.But they don't let 'em in to run off in any direction: they have to be housed in a holding area which is internationally recognised as a kind of No-Man's land. And they have all to be thoroughly vetted.If they don't get through that, THEN they can be turned away

The more he closes off his country the less his followers are exposed to the the reality of the world outside their borders, so the more total garbage they accept unblinkingly, unquestionably and without a doubt. The more they diverge from the way the rest of the world thinks, behaves, uses words, or just IS; the more they are able to be bask in the glory of the America they are told they have - and to consider all others (even fellow Americans who are attached to reality rather than a propagandised dream?)their enemy.

So it's pretty scarey, isn't it? Shades of China's "Bamboo Wall" and the "Iron curtain". (The Hamburger Wall?Dancing ) Now I can more fully understand the uproar.

And yet....I've seen a lot of the new contenders who are coming up for this election. They're young, they're dynamic, they were not shaped by post WW2 parents; they're technically savvy; they know that the idyl of the days of picket fences and unlocked doors, when men were men and women just accepted it, is an ancient & dusty dream. They're skilled in modern communications, they don't think bi-partisanship is impossible to achieve. They represent the real, present-day American; not the dark troubled kingdom where the evil magician takes over the castle and darkness falls upon the land!

And, what the rest of America (and the world) yearns for: they represent both parties.

The best thing is they haven't yet had the time to spin themselves webs of corruption, going back down through decades, connecting them with low-life and immoral people, and colouring their every decision!

So I have taken heart from this. Yeah, yeah, the whole things unspeakably dangerous right now. But if some of these people do get elected I'm sure that a change is, if not imminent, then at least in the realms of possibility?
A cooperator
Posted: Thursday, November 1, 2018 3:25:52 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 10/27/2011
Posts: 2,879
Neurons: 10,562
Location: Ḩāḑírah, Hadramawt, Yemen
FounDit wrote:
Trump himself defined what he meant by Nationalist when he said it was someone who loves their country and puts its interest above Globalism. He believes the U.S. can do the most good, both for its own citizens and other people in the world, when the U.S. is strong, safe, and prosperous. What other country do people all over the world seek help from when disaster strikes? Russia? China? Please.


FoundDit, if I had invited one to my own home as a guest, found them not interesting, and expelled them, then it'd my right, I think.
During the lying war between Huthies and KSA+UAE, along with the supporters of each side, USA, UK, and Iran, the 1 SAR got equaled to 57 YER up to 200 YER.
Please as an American citizen, can you convey a special thanks to Mr Trump, your president, we here in Yemen no longer like to see your UN, and American representatives in the Yemeni case. Also, the same is for the UK, France, Russia, Turkey, Iran, KSA, UAE and Israel. How many times should we say that to those of the arrogant countries? We know what is going on. If those countries like interfering in others' affairs, then they can try to interfere in the internal affairs of North Korea, China, Japan, etc.
we, Yemenies-to-Yemenies, can fix our internal affairs via sitting on the table. Your interferences let Yemenies-to-Yemenies sit under the table.

Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
A cooperator
Posted: Thursday, November 1, 2018 4:44:53 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 10/27/2011
Posts: 2,879
Neurons: 10,562
Location: Ḩāḑírah, Hadramawt, Yemen
Kirill Vorobyov wrote:
FounDit wrote:
What other country do people all over the world seek help from when disaster strikes? Russia? China? Please.


That's in your part of the world. On this side countries often call on Russia for help.

It is true though that, at least af far as I can see, the public opinion in Russia is now not so much in favor of making gracious and unsubstantiated gifts to other nations, as we so obviously have lots to do and lots to fix in our own country.

This is not to say that we are not making those gifts anymore though. Our government is divided as everywhere.


The same thing is for you, as a Russian citizen, can you convey a special thanks to Mr Putin, your president, we here in Yemen no longer like to see your Russian representatives in the Yemeni case. The same is for the UK, France, US, Turkey, Iran, KSA, UAE and Israel.

Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
Y111
Posted: Friday, November 2, 2018 1:41:55 AM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 6/25/2017
Posts: 252
Neurons: 1,239
Location: Kurgan, Kurgan, Russia
A cooperator wrote:
we, Yemenies-to-Yemenies, can fix our internal affairs via sitting on the table.

Why didn't you do so from the very beginning?
Tyoma
Posted: Friday, November 2, 2018 2:52:37 AM
Rank: Newbie

Joined: 10/31/2018
Posts: 25
Neurons: 137
Kirill Vorobyov wrote:
On this side countries often call on Russia for help.

I don't quite understand what you mean. Could you give a couple examples of countries asking Russia for help?
Kirill Vorobyov
Posted: Friday, November 2, 2018 7:20:24 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 10/4/2016
Posts: 522
Neurons: 2,712
Location: Moscow, Moscow, Russia
A cooperator wrote:

The same thing is for you, as a Russian citizen, can you convey a special thanks to Mr Putin, your president, we here in Yemen no longer like to see your Russian representatives in the Yemeni case. The same is for the UK, France, US, Turkey, Iran, KSA, UAE and Israel.


I don't have access to Putin, but if I knew who exactly those Russian representatives are, maybe I would share your feelings. Angel I just don't know. I mean, sometimes I see heads on TV and seriously wonder where some of those guys have fallen upon us from.

The thing is, the Middle East has been deliberately destabilized for long term political purposes, and this has been done by a group that is obviously international in nature. So what you are looking for is not countries that are responsible, but particular political / economic groups. I am sure there are plenty of people in the US, in the UK, and in other countries you mentioned, and certainly in Russia, who do not want and never wanted Yemen to be inflamed with a war. I mean, that's rediculous, why would we want it? I want a peaceful and prosperous Yemen, so one day maybe I could visit it and spend a good time. Why would I want a war there?

These are serious questions. Because seemingly contrary to common sense the war nevertheless does take place. So somebody does want it, I guess.d'oh!

And yes, I can see it very well that local people in all those Arab countries - Yemen, Iraq, Syria...- only suffer from the war. You have nothing to gain from it.
Kirill Vorobyov
Posted: Friday, November 2, 2018 7:28:43 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 10/4/2016
Posts: 522
Neurons: 2,712
Location: Moscow, Moscow, Russia
Tyoma wrote:
Kirill Vorobyov wrote:
On this side countries often call on Russia for help.

I don't quite understand what you mean. Could you give a couple examples of countries asking Russia for help?


Well, certainly our neighbouring countries - that were formely parts of the Russian Empire, then USSR. Nations in Europe (like Greece, then I think Portugal this summer) and elsewhere sometimes ask for help in dealing with natural desasters. Let alone gracious "loans" that were extended by the USSR and are getting massively written-off by billions.

At least some of the assistance extended in case of natural desasters may not be for free though. I would hope the recipients at least cover direct operational costs, but I don't really know.
A cooperator
Posted: Friday, November 2, 2018 8:12:28 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 10/27/2011
Posts: 2,879
Neurons: 10,562
Location: Ḩāḑírah, Hadramawt, Yemen
Y111 wrote:
A cooperator wrote:
we, Yemenies-to-Yemenies, can fix our internal affairs via sitting on the table.

Why didn't you do so from the very beginning?

To understand me well, simply I'd ask you if you're willing not to let your own country "Russia" interfere in the Syrian case by any way, how would you have done?
The same thing is for me, neither am I a spokesperson of Yemen, nor am I a senior official.
Firstly, The UN, US, and UK immediately interfered in Yemeni case from the very first beginning after bombing and burning Ali Abdullah Saleh in the Al-Nahdain mosque about on 2, June, 2011, and in 2012, Abdurabo Mansour Hadi was appointed as the temporarly legal
president of Yemen without any competitors as if we're in the Saudi Arabia Kingdom. Hahaha. That is to have a legal president to bomb Yemeni lands with having an a decision from a Yemeni president in case KSA and UAE were asked who permitted to bomb Yemen.
Then, after Ali Saleh was treated in KSA,
he recovered his health, he came back to Yemen.
After that, he was not satisfying with what new president, along with KSA, UAE, was doing with him. So, he agreed to let Huthies enter into Sana'a. And, it seemed that the king Abdullah, the king of Saudi Arabia, along with the US, UK,
was also supporting Hutheis to enter Sana'a to finish the sunni people group most of whom are members in the Al-Aslah party, the most well-known second party after Al-Mutamar party(Congress Party).
However, KSA and US, UK only wanted Huthies supported by Iran to finish those people in some specific places, such as Imran governorate and Dammaj district. But, then Al-Huthies didn't follow what was permitted to them to reach and occupied. However, they put Abduraboh in the prison, and when he ran away to Aden, they went behind him and occupied Aden. That was a red line for the US, UK since they were afraid that Huthies will control over the Bab Al-Mandab, the very important sea passage.
After that, Abduraboh travelled to KSA and settled down there.
Finally, then the US, UK and UN ordered their servant KSA, UAE to form what was called Al-Al-Hazm Storm.

Now, questions are to you:
1- why did Russia play the role of standby while the UN, US, UK, KSA, UAE have been interfering in Yemenicase?
2- Who supported those who bombed Ali Saleh in the Mosque?
3- Why had KSA permitted Ali Saleh to be treated in KSA, since then they started fighting him along with Huthies, while he was able to go to Russia, Germany, US, UK, and Oman etc to be treated?

Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
A cooperator
Posted: Friday, November 2, 2018 8:43:22 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 10/27/2011
Posts: 2,879
Neurons: 10,562
Location: Ḩāḑírah, Hadramawt, Yemen
Kirill Vorobyov wrote:
Tyoma wrote:
Kirill Vorobyov wrote:
On this side countries often call on Russia for help.

I don't quite understand what you mean. Could you give a couple examples of countries asking Russia for help?


Well, certainly our neighbouring countries - that were formely parts of the Russian Empire, then USSR. Nations in Europe (like Greece, then I think Portugal this summer) and elsewhere sometimes ask for help in dealing with natural desasters. Let alone gracious "loans" that were extended by the USSR and are getting massively written-off by billions.

At least some of the assistance extended in case of natural desasters may not be for free though. I would hope the recipients at least cover direct operational costs, but I don't really know.

Hey, The People's Democratic Republic of Yemen was governed under the concepts of the Soviet Union 30 years ago.
During all the ten years of subordinating of the Soviet Union concepts, although my South Yemen population was about a million, we're living in desprete poverty. The Soveit Union didn't let Oil Exploration companies excavate in the South Yemen. However, after the Soveit Union has collapsed, and Yemeni unit was made, Ali Abdullah Saleh started playing the Game of Politics, and succeeded in inviting oil exploration companies to excavate in Yemen. The most secret one is most of the Yemeni lands on which oil was detected were covered in South Yemen.
Imagine detecting that oil before making Yemeni Unit while the population of South Yemen was a million, how prosperously would my country South Yemen have been?


Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
Kirill Vorobyov
Posted: Friday, November 2, 2018 8:48:14 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 10/4/2016
Posts: 522
Neurons: 2,712
Location: Moscow, Moscow, Russia
A cooperator wrote:

Hey, The People's Democratic Republic of Yemen was governed under the concepts of the Soviet Union 30 years ago.
During all the ten years of subordinating of the Soviet Union concepts, although my South population was about a million, we're living in desprete poverty. The Soveit Union didn't let Oil Exploration companies excavate in South Yemen. However, after the Soveit Union has collapsed, and Yemeni unit was made, Ali Abdullah Saleh started playing the Game of Politics, and succeeded in inviting Oil Exploration companies to excavate in Yemen. The most secret one is most of the Yemeni lands on which oil was detected were covered in South Yemen.
Imagine detecting that oil before making Yemeni Unit while the population of South Yemen was a million, how prosperously would my country South Yemen have been?


So what you're saying is that the USSR didn't do enough for Yemen.

I assure you they did even much less for Russia.
Users browsing this topic
Guest


Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.

Main Forum RSS : RSS
Forum Terms and Guidelines | Privacy policy | Copyright © 2008-2018 Farlex, Inc. All rights reserved.