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The Spirituality of Atheism Options
Ray41
Posted: Wednesday, October 19, 2011 7:42:57 AM

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intel wrote:
As such, it is probably conceived of, very ethnocentrically - a sort of "We invented the word in the west, so it means only what I, as a westerner, say it means" - which is a bit of a put down for the millions of Buddhists, Hindus etc. The word "should" be big enough to include the experience of eastern and south-eastern schools, but I am beginning to doubt it - or at least thinking that our christian luggage is going to cause us to see it in a certain way. Because it has been the pretty much sole preserve of Christians in the west, it is likely they feel possessive about it



Posted by me on October,1st:
My ideas on spiritualism would exclude their believes from the religion tag, no gods or idols! If you exclude them from being 'spiritual' then I can think of no other people in this world who is. The North American Indian is very close in his way of beliefs to the Australian Aborigine, if not, kitten will correct me if she is reading this.

The Aztecs, etc. had a form religion as they worshiped gods, built temples/alters and gave sacrifices to those gods.



This was in reference to the Australian Aborigines spiritual beliefs in which I mentioned that they had been isolated for a known 40,000 years (and now believed to be 70,000 years)
The Christian Era started 2000 years ago so there is no way they can lay claim to be the originators of 'spirituality'Think
This comment is in support of intels post.


While I live I grow.
jacobusmaximus
Posted: Wednesday, October 19, 2011 9:15:26 AM

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NancyLee said "...Intelligence, cleverness, and most other human traits didn't change, conscious awareness
came along so that we could make faster decisions and so that we could lie...".

Animals must have conscious awareness in that case as my dog can lie to me. He can hide from me when I am calling him into the house and that involves him pretending that he can't hear me because he is too far away - when he is not.


I remember, therefore I am.
FounDit
Posted: Wednesday, October 19, 2011 9:20:57 AM

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Intelfam,

I agree that a person can experience a sense of spirituality without attaching it to a God or gods, because it is just that, an internal experience.

Years ago, when I was doing my own search, I came across Taoism and felt it harmonized with my own thinking, as if I was already immersed in it without even knowing about it.

I stuck with its basic elements as I think too many attempt to make more of it than it is. At its core is simple balance; not going to any extreme. I doubt anyone can accomplish it perfectly, but it is a goal to strive towards.

Following the balance point gives a sense equivalent to Epi's description of spirituality, in my opinion. But it may be that each person has to find the description that fits best for them.

I suspect this might resonate with the mindset of the aborigines Ray talks about also; perhaps the Native American beliefs as well. My only disagreement with them would be the idea of pantheism; life, yes, pantheistic spirits, no.



A great many people will think they are thinking when they are merely rearranging their prejudices. ~ William James ~
jacobusmaximus
Posted: Wednesday, October 19, 2011 9:24:15 AM

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Ray41 says "...The Christian Era started 2000 years ago so there is no way they can lay claim to be the originators of 'spirituality'.."

I don't know any Christians who claim that 'spirituality' began with Christ. Christians believe what the Bible teaches and there is much in the Old Testament that speaks of spirituality. The Holy Spirit came into the world in the beginning of the Christian era and he dwells in all who believe in Christ. This is true Spirituality.


I remember, therefore I am.
Epiphileon
Posted: Wednesday, October 19, 2011 9:59:37 AM

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Thanks guys but you know, I just don't think oneanality would go over very well, besides its impossible to spell. I think the phrase atheistic spirituality, is a keeper, for those of you just coming to the topic, the reasons why this is a valid usage are spread throughout the earlier posts, mostly within the first few pages, I think.

Question authority. How do you know, that you know, what you know?
intelfam
Posted: Wednesday, October 19, 2011 10:58:51 AM

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jacobusmaximus wrote:
Ray41 says "...The Christian Era started 2000 years ago so there is no way they can lay claim to be the originators of 'spirituality'.."

I don't know any Christians who claim that 'spirituality' began with Christ. Christians believe what the Bible teaches and there is much in the Old Testament that speaks of spirituality. The Holy Spirit came into the world in the beginning of the Christian era and he dwells in all who believe in Christ. This is true Spirituality.


Hi jacobus, I think Ray41 was responding to my post and should be read in that context. I would hope no christian teaching would "claim" spirituality as its own. I was suggesting however, that christianity is the background against which much deep thought has been made in the west. It permeates our legal system, our political system and our educative system still. Because of that I was suggesting that in our discussion, there will be a lot of that luggage.



"The voice of the majority is no proof of justice." - Schiller
Ray41
Posted: Thursday, October 20, 2011 12:59:19 AM

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Intel is right about the context of my post. Thank you intel.

jacobusmaximus wrote:
I don't know any Christians who claim that 'spirituality' began with Christ.


You just did jacob!

Christians believe what the Bible teaches and there is much in the Old Testament that speaks of spirituality.

True, the Old Testament does speak of spirituality, but you went on to say,

The Holy Spirit came into the world in the beginning of the Christian era and he dwells in all who believe in Christ. This is true Spirituality.

While I live I grow.
jacobusmaximus
Posted: Thursday, October 20, 2011 3:05:39 AM

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Thanks Ray.

I am trying to make the point that there is the spirituality of humanity and the Spirituality of the Christian. The first has been part of man since the beginning. The second since the Resurrection of Christ. It is supernatural, and is the only spirituality worth talking about.

I remember, therefore I am.
intelfam
Posted: Thursday, October 20, 2011 5:13:40 AM

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jacobusmaximus wrote:
The second since the Resurrection of Christ. It is supernatural, and is the only spirituality worth talking about.


This was the sort of ethnocentric thinking that I was hoping to avoid. I appreciate that some religions have a history of persecution that has resulted in their need to be seen as well marked out. Unfortunately, this resulted in the idea of the One True Church as promulgated by the holy see in historic times.
I have to admit that this elitism was one reason I left the church - feeling as I did, that it was phenomenal presumption on anybody's part, to know the mind of god in the context of eternity and to suggest that salvation was based on an accident of birth and history.



"The voice of the majority is no proof of justice." - Schiller
Peaceward
Posted: Thursday, October 20, 2011 5:15:20 AM
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I think that spirituality has ever existed, because it is a state of mind, consciousness, each individual is differently tuned to the world, some people walked in the Spirit before the advent of Christ, in Bible also said that not Christians yet before the Advent 2000y.ago will also be saved because they were walking in the Spirit.
I think Christ and then his disciples made people to realize about the Spirit, spirituality, what is inner state of human

What goes around, comes around.
Epiphileon
Posted: Thursday, October 20, 2011 5:43:37 AM

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jacobusmaximus wrote:
Thanks Ray.

I am trying to make the point that there is the spirituality of humanity and the Spirituality of the Christian. The first has been part of man since the beginning. The second since the Resurrection of Christ. It is supernatural, and is the only spirituality worth talking about.


Perhaps in your opinion, but that underlined portion is incredibly arrogant, and inconsistent with the walk of a disciple, at the very least attempting to push such a view in this thread, seems to me would be equivalent to casting pearls before swine.

Question authority. How do you know, that you know, what you know?
Ripen
Posted: Friday, December 16, 2011 9:49:01 PM
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I'm agnostic, guess that means I don't really care about any of this -.-
pedro
Posted: Thursday, December 22, 2011 4:22:41 AM

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You just like typing, right?

All good ideas arrive by chance- Max Ernst
Ripen
Posted: Thursday, December 22, 2011 8:18:09 PM
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Ray41 wrote:
I do not think that I can do justice to the correct interpretation of 'spirituality'.
I do know that you do not need religion to have spirituality.
The Australian Aborigine,[and no doubt other indigenous peoples such as the North American Indian] have a deep spiritual attachment to the environment as it features in all their culture, which is at least 40,000 years old. That certainly predates 'religion per se'.
Their beliefs go back to their 'dream-time' where their vision of how the earth was formed comes from.
It is a study within itself and if modern Europeans had embraced some of this culture, this planet would be a whole lot healthier.
I am myself, spiritual, but I no longer embrace the concept of a religious God.


^
Ray41
Posted: Friday, December 23, 2011 7:36:55 AM

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Ripen, it would be nice if you could add a comment, constructive or otherwise, to what you copy and paste, so we at least can see what 'your thoughts' on the topic are.Angel

While I live I grow.
Klaas V
Posted: Friday, December 23, 2011 9:54:14 AM

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Ripen posted an interesting statement last week explaining why her/his own thoughts if any might be confusing at least for her/him-self. I can relate since I was agnostic for years until I found that agnosticism doesn't provide many answers to questions about life, the universe and all. The advantage is that they're mostly harmless. There is a certain beauty in confusion, but through christianity I found there is much more between earth and heaven than man can think of in a lifetime.

Living is doubt. Being sure is after life.

With maybe the exception of the unasked there just isn't such thing available as a dumb question - Z4us
Epiphileon
Posted: Wednesday, September 19, 2012 10:23:46 AM

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(Note: this thread has been inactive for about 9 months, this post is not a reply to preceding posts)

I just viewed a video that speaks to this issue quite a bit more elegantly than I have done. For those interested pay very close attention to the last 3 minutes or so, not only does he make a very good case for the use of the term spirituality within an atheistic interpretation of reality, but he also alludes to the question of mental archetypes for spirituality, existing.
Neil DeGrasse Tyson - Greatest Sermon Ever

Question authority. How do you know, that you know, what you know?
FounDit
Posted: Wednesday, September 19, 2012 5:59:19 PM

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A truly inspiring talk. Thanks for posting it.

Relative to your post, however, I suppose one could label the response to this realization as mental archetypes for spirituality, and existing, but for me it’s more the simple awe and wonder we experience when we contemplate that stardust has formed itself into creatures such as ourselves who are capable of examining that idea.

To me it is that awe and wonder, arising from that fantastic concept, that equates to what many call spirituality. The essence of those thoughts or feelings, to my mind, is really just the simple pleasure of accepting ourselves as we are, totally, completely; beholding ourselves in a mirror of astonishment when we contemplate the fact that we are, indeed, pieces of the Universe itself. This simple, yet profound idea, promotes a sense of happiness and pleasure, and for the time we revel in it, worries and cares disappear.





A great many people will think they are thinking when they are merely rearranging their prejudices. ~ William James ~
leonAzul
Posted: Thursday, September 20, 2012 1:51:36 AM

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Epiphileon wrote:
(Note: this thread has been inactive for about 9 months, this post is not a reply to preceding posts)

I just viewed a video that speaks to this issue quite a bit more elegantly than I have done. For those interested pay very close attention to the last 3 minutes or so, not only does he make a very good case for the use of the term spirituality within an atheistic interpretation of reality, but he also alludes to the question of mental archetypes for spirituality, existing.
Neil DeGrasse Tyson - Greatest Sermon Ever


If I am not mistaken, these are the comments to which you refer:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6RjW5-4IiSc

Joni Mitchell wrote:
We are stardust
Billion year old carbon
We are golden
Caught in the devil's bargain
And we've got to get ourselves
back to the garden


© Siquomb Publishing Company


This is, of course, the cultural reference Mr. deGrasse Tyson was making.

I have treasured Mr. deGrasse Tyson for a long time as living evidence that the scientific method not only does not conflict with spirituality, it rather informs it, fulfills it and properly facilitates it.

Pseudoscience and dogmatic thinking can't hold a candle to good scientific method done right. Perhaps that is why they are so jealous. Think




"Make it go away, Mrs Whatsit," he whispered. "Make it go away. It's evil."
Luftmarque
Posted: Monday, March 04, 2013 12:56:17 PM

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Having been invited by the OP'er to peruse this topic, I have read the OP and briefly skimmed the subsequent discussion. This topic certainly resonates with my experience. I have always had available those feelings of awe when contemplating nature, the sort of thing Einstein mentioned in his oft-quoted remarks. That never left me during my fifty-odd years of principled atheism. I do know some atheists (and comments indicate there are some on TFD) who have not the slightest interest in wandering around in the forest, contemplating the eerie presence of "something," looking for the "face of God" everywhere they turn. Some of these, but by no means all, seem also somewhat lacking in appreciation for art, poetry, and music. Which leads me to conclude that the part of my brain that gets religion shares more circuitry with the aesthetic realm than it does with the logical, conscious, verbal areas.

What I miss the most about not "belonging" to any religion is the lack of a community of support and fellowship. Subsequent to my recent "awakening" I see my way clear to gaining that sometime in the near future. I am hanging with some Christians while still in the US, have had a serious discussion with one of them, and am finding ways to contribute a little to the community in which I live with music. But it does seem to me that many, if not most, Christians I am likely to meet, in the US at least, will be of the literalist sort, and that path is, as far as I can tell, permanently barred for me. One cannot will oneself into belief, at least I cannot, nor would I accept as genuine any top-down decision on my part to "choose" one religion over another, least of all for any supposed benefits that might gain.

An essential aspect (and one that I highly cherish) of "what happened to me" was that it was experienced as "not proceeding from my self." I had recently "received" a CD's worth of original music that just seemed to float to the surface, requiring me to transcribe it but not to "work" at it, to "create" it. This is pretty common among artists and writers, so it didn't seem to have any implications further than the aesthetic realm. And it seemed to run its course and then just stop. But that may just have been the beginning of a process of giving up the idea that my "self" was in any way competent to run my life (interesting how this runs counter to one of the posts in another Phil/Relig topic which was to the effect that one must always have "faith in oneself" if in nothing else—of course, having "faith" that letting go of conscious control is going to work out is also a form of "faith in oneself" I suppose).

In one sense, when I stopped trying to run the show, that meant that I was already, in that moment, some species of "Muslim" if we just consider the denotation of the word (one who "surrenders" to the will of Allah). Obviously, that doesn't constitute the adoption of Islam so I wouldn't call myself that (and certainly wouldn't change my "religion" area on Facebook—I've had enough stupid flame-wars about religion to last a lifetime). My project of reading the Bible and the Qur'an side-by-side is part of what I would consider the necessary prerequisite for pursuing any more formal identification with a religion. But my prediction is that, if my plans come to fruition in the fullness of time (reading the Bible is warping my style!), I may indeed start practicing Islam sometime next year. Which, if you had asked me last year, I would probably have listed as the least likely religion I would ever find myself participating in. I always had myself pegged as some sort of hippie Buddhist. But again, this was never a matter of "choice."

But it's not actually that strange, when I consider how my experience of Muslims has in the past few years been entirely out-of-phase with the way they are portrayed in the media. Without a single exception, every one I have met in Morocco, Turkey, and Egypt has been polite, friendly, helpful, and (and this has made the biggest impression on me) dignified. Obviously, that doesn't imply anything about the fanatics who surely exist and use their religion for evil ends, but it does help to explain the attraction I have come to feel for the religion. Two other aspects of Islam that appeal to me are the strong thread of being against social injustice, which touches something in me as deep as anything in my personality, and the emphasis placed on "othopraxy" (right behavior) over "orthodoxy" (right belief), which echoes what I often natter on about on TFD, and perhaps countenances the way in which I feel no conflict between the realms of reason and faith.

I see that I have managed to ramble way off-topic, which is, after all, the spirituality of atheists. Which I like to think I still have. Now to view Mr Tyson's lecture…


}- Luftmarque لوفتمارك -{ Le doute n'est pas une condition agréable, mais la certitude est absurde.—Voltaire
amorvincitomnia
Posted: Monday, March 04, 2013 4:17:49 PM
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i tend to agree with epiphileon. Spirituality is not a religious experience.
I tend to believe that it isnt a human one either rather that it can be achieved by all things. That it is an in depth(to your desired extent of understanding)understanding of your universe, an acceptance of that understanding and where you personally fit into it, and a general relief or contentment found in this.

It has been my experience (though a short one) that most of the athiests that i have met and know are much more spiritual than the religious people i have met and know. which i find quite interesting considering many religions strive towards reaching a level of spirituality. I also think this level is found in all living things.

i think even a cow has reached spirituality. because it has stopped worrying about where it came from. Stopped fretting over what it is supposed to do. Rather even the cow can reach spirituality when it realizes
"I am cow, so I will be cow. And i need know nothing more than this to be happy."

The word impossible is a figment of your imagination. When someone says its impossible, they mean "you'd be the first"
Epiphileon
Posted: Saturday, March 09, 2013 7:45:06 AM

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Luftmarque wrote:

I see that I have managed to ramble way off-topic, which is, after all, the spirituality of atheists.

Well yea Luft, sort of, but you did touch on some really important points that, although not specifically pertinent to the issues I would like to pursue in this thread, are nevertheless, relevant to the topic, glad you posted this. I was curious what you'd been alluding to in some of your other posts. I also want you to know I'm sincerely happy for you, to have such an experience, "on the other side of life", (i.e. second half century) must be totally delightful. I also hope you'll post this to your "Losing a Religion" thread, or even start a thread something along the lines of "latent positivity of religious affiliation. (that's really weak phrasing but I think you get my drift), as there are a couple points you raised that I am very curious about.




Question authority. How do you know, that you know, what you know?
dusty
Posted: Saturday, March 09, 2013 12:27:19 PM

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no problem, if you aren't upset that people want to tell you how to define your spirituality, I have no right to be upset for you.

sorry bout returning to late to delete it

To be concerned of the fate of the world is not bad, but bearing false witness is to not be
Epiphileon
Posted: Saturday, March 09, 2013 12:32:14 PM

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Dusty as you just posted this, I would appreciate it if you would delete it, it is not even close to being on topic. these posts that are carefully structured in the OP are intended to investigate an issue, under specific parameters, besides as your replying to a post in another thread, if it did belong anywhere it would be there.

Question authority. How do you know, that you know, what you know?
ithink140
Posted: Saturday, March 09, 2013 1:33:53 PM

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I I think there is no such thing as the spirituality of atheism. Set out below are my reasons for holding this view.


1)The common usage of the word is in relation to God and a human’s closeness to him.
The more one is in tune with God’s ways the more he is to termed as possessing spirituality,
One could use of such a person the expression ‘he or she is spiritually minded.’ An atheist cannot by definition be such a person in that way since he has no sense of a superior being.

2)If one leaves God out of the equation then spirituality refers to material matters or feelings and emotions. So one could be said to be in touch with his sense of where and what he is in the universe, or at one with nature. In this sense an atheist can, but not necessarily so, possess spirituality. Some atheists are very unspiritual as are some religionists. The mere title fact of being atheist or possessing religion does not of necessity carry with it spirituality… that depends on the individual.

It is a fact that for many, indeed a great number, who follow religion then it takes a back seat in their lives... they are not very spiritual indeed hardly at all.

The same is true of a great number of atheists who merely take a position and that is that. In itself that positioning does not make them spiritual in the sense that a non-atheist and athesit can be.


3)But…. the type of spirituality based on the material world and universe is not confined to atheists. Atheists do not possess spirituality peculiar to them, but hold in common with many a sense of wonderment and awe at the universe. There is no such thing as a spirituality confined to an atheist. However there is spirituality exclusive to some who believe in god.

The terms of the thread are in my view a misnomer since they suggest an exclusivity that is not there.

This is what I think. It is not stated to offend, merely to put a view.


'Life is too short to be eaten up by hate.'
jacobusmaximus
Posted: Sunday, March 10, 2013 6:10:21 AM

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...and a view very well put, ithink140.

I remember, therefore I am.
Romany
Posted: Sunday, March 10, 2013 8:40:27 AM
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ithink -

I'm going to take issue with all three points posted above, starting with: "The common usage of the word is in relation to God and a human's closeness to him.(btw, as a believer, shouldn't 'Him' be written with a Capital letter?..Just sayin'...)

I think that is why one has to stick to objective sources: spirituality was not defined in terms of a god in any of the sources I looked up: though it was acknowledged by many of them that there were different kinds of spirituality. The consensus, however, defined spirituality as dealing with the metaphysical. This directly contradicts the points you made in both 2 and 3 where you seemed (and Jacobus too, I see) to think that spirituality dealt with the 'material world' - a complete abnegation, in my mind, of the very word and certainly one which is not backed up anywhere I can find.

The definition from this website gives, I think, a balanced answer: -

http://www.religioustolerance.org/gl_s1.htm: This term is defined quite differently by monotheists, polytheists, humanists, followers of new age, Native Americans, etc. A common meaning is "devotion to metaphysical matters, as opposed to worldly things." Another is "Activities which renew, lift up, comfort, heal and inspire both ourselves and those with whom we interact."

I realise that, as a believer, you are discussing what you think spirituality is: - however, if you're in a discourse with non-believers, it stands to reason that the subject would be a complete no-brainer if a Deist meaning of the word were under discussion: Deist's believe spirituality relates to a Supreme Being. Non-theists don't believe in a Supreme Being. Therefore they can't be spiritual under a Deist interpretation. End of discussion.

For the purposes of the very discussion that these threads exist to generate, perhaps you, and anyone else who confines the meaning of the word spirituality to a belief in a god, could shift your perspective to that which is given as the primary meaning in objective sources?

Can we work on one of the more standard meanings as given above: - either "devotion to metaphysical matters, as opposed to worldly things." or "Activities which renew, lift up, comfort, heal and inspire both ourselves and those with whom we interact." Unless we do so, there is, really, nothing left for any of us to say.

Epiphileon
Posted: Sunday, March 10, 2013 9:01:47 AM

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ithink140 wrote:
I I think there is no such thing as the spirituality of atheism. Set out below are my reasons for holding this view.

3)But…. the type of spirituality based on the material world and universe is not confined to atheists. Atheists do not possess spirituality peculiar to them, but hold in common with many a sense of wonderment and awe at the universe.* There is no such thing as a spirituality confined to an atheist. However there is spirituality exclusive to some who believe in god.
The terms of the thread are in my view a misnomer since they suggest an exclusivity that is not there.
This is what I think. It is not stated to offend, merely to put a view.


No problem, and I understand your point of view, but I do find it a wee bit difficult to see how what I was driving at earlier in this thread was in any way perceived as exclusive to atheists. I was actually saying that at some level in the physical architecture of the brain/mind it may very well be, that the structures that are responsible for the experience of spirituality, were so heavily selected for during the co-evolutionary development of gods/religion/mind, that they are now a universal structure throughout the population of homo sapiens.
In fact in two points from the original post...

Quote:
3>I would propose that the experience is likely only in those with a deeply examined, deeply held, and cultivated real time experience of their Fundamental Interpretation of Reality (FIR), Christians call this "walking in the Spirit.

5>I submit that there are archetypal mechanisms evolved within our mentalities to facilitate spirituality, and thus the power of the "religious experience."


...I thought I had indicated clearly that it was an experience, the substrate of which is not only the same, but reliant on structures that the selection pressures of religions are responsible for having written them into the genotype.

*If I had been talking only about, "a sense of wonderment and awe at the universe.", I would not have even brought this topic up. It is when, that experience, is based in, and magnified by its direct relationship to one's Fundamental Interpretation of Reality(FIR), and effects their day to day experience, and how they conduct themselves in the world, whether theist, non-theist, or atheist, that I find no other current word for than, spiritual.

I maintain that the only aspect of the experience of spirituality that is peculiar to atheists, is that it is not based in a dualistic FIR, but that is purely a language problem, and not one that would concern an investigation into the roots of the mental behavioral experience, conducted from an evolutionary perspective.

I understand why theists would want to reject the notion of atheists experiencing what for lack of a better word I have been calling spirituality, and in the early portion of this thread you will see that point discussed, I believe quite thoroughly. Personally I would be quite happy with a different word, that conveyed the same meaning, without the unfortunate, standard connotation; however, nonesuch is available.

I believe I have presented sound arguments that atheists can experience a mental state that is for all intents and purposes, at the neurophysiological level, the same, and that has the same type of results in their behavioral repertoires, apart from its non-reliance on literal spirits, and in no way did I ever intend to indicate any type of exclusivity. That would be contrary to my primary hypothesis concerning its' origin.


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ithink140
Posted: Sunday, March 10, 2013 9:06:05 AM

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Romany. You are correct it should be Him and I knew that, but like you and others I make errors when writing.

I disagree with your post and am willing to bet that the average person will think of spirituality in connection with a god. That by the way is correct as a small ‘g’ in this context.

One can always find a suitable site to support ones view, but in modern parlance spirituality is linked mainly with a god. But even if that were not the case... let us concede that for the purpose of argument... the fact remains that the spiritualty that is linked with closeness to God is not something that a non-believer can experience or possess. That is self-evident.

It is also self-evident that the spiritualty that has emotion and or material as its origins is not exclusive to atheists. There is no such thing as a spirituality exclusive to atheism.

Your post is very aggressive and uncalled for. My posts are right on subject and the fact that I raise issues with what is posited is called reasoned debate my dear.

I have friends who are atheists and I do not treat them rudely, they as others have a just right to their views.

You seek to limit the definition and curtail an alternative view, and you are in error in doing so. I do not seek to limit, and in my post acknowledged that there is more than one definition of spirituality.

My basic point is that indeed the atheist can possess spirituality. But that that spirituality is not exclusive to him but is open to all persuasions, whereas the spirituality which is in tandem with God is exclusive to a believer who develops it.

Not all atheists or non-atheists are spiritually-minded which is also self-evident.

A little more tolerance and respect would not go amiss.


'Life is too short to be eaten up by hate.'
ithink140
Posted: Sunday, March 10, 2013 9:31:45 AM

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E. I have little or no argument with what you say and was not attacking you. Of course an atheist can possess spirituality, and yes it is similar in its emotion to that which a believer in a supreme being possesses. However the spiritualty of the believer in a god is closely linked to a desire to be in accord with such a one and has love at its core.

But then a spirituality connected to emotion and or the material universe, and our immediate environment, I think is also linked to a desire to be in tune.

Of course one's reality will depend on ones perception of what is reality. For you reality is evolution of life and for me creation by a supreme being.

But we can beg to differ with respect.


'Life is too short to be eaten up by hate.'
Epiphileon
Posted: Sunday, March 10, 2013 9:50:28 AM

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Hello IT, I did not think you were attacking me, only that you had misunderstood my to be claiming some sort of exclusive state, of atheistic spirituality, and that it was merely a sense of awe and wonderment.

Question authority. How do you know, that you know, what you know?
Romany
Posted: Sunday, March 10, 2013 11:00:00 AM
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Joined: 6/14/2009
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iThink,

Really? I came off as aggressive? I am utterly gobsmacked. Please, show me where something I said must have seemed belligerent. I honestly don't know where what I said could possibly have given offence so need to know for the future. As to being 'uncalled for'. I honestly don't know what is meant by that.Did you not want me to answer your post? Should I not have disagreed with your definition? Please explain as now I am convinced that every word that comes out of my head is going to come across as rude!

It seemed that there was confusion at to what was meant by spirituality I was looking for a way in which we could all be sure we were on the same page: that we weren't comparing apples to oranges. That we weren't talking at cross purposes. It was for this reason I first checked to see if it was ME who had understood incorrectly. So the sites consulted - as in any Academic debate - have to be objective and not, as you also agreed, those that were weighted more in one direction than another:- the sites I went to were all accepted research sites: The Oxford Dictionary, Collins, Education sites...those that have no agenda.

Finally, I am further confused at the idea of a 'special' kind of spiritualism just for Atheists? What would that be? I don't understand: - who has mentioned this concept? It runs counter to what we are discussing, as Epi also pointed out. So I too, must hasten to reassure that, far from promulgating such a construct, I remain unaware that one even exists.

I am mystified that my post was seen in the way you described and apologise profusely if this was the inescapable conclusion to be drawn from what I said. Tolerance and respect? I am utterly, utterly shattered that you could think I was acting in a manner contrary to these two qualities.
ithink140
Posted: Sunday, March 10, 2013 11:06:20 AM

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A misunderstanding Romany... no sweat. Peace

'Life is too short to be eaten up by hate.'
jacobusmaximus
Posted: Sunday, March 10, 2013 2:07:00 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 4/17/2009
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Location: Glasgow, Scotland, United Kingdom
ithink140 wrote:
A misunderstanding Romany... no sweat. Peace


A misunderstanding has certainly arisen here. I am simply saying that the spirituality of atheism is completely different from the Spirituality of the Believer in Christ. My belief is that a Christian is indwelt with the Holy Spirit of God and the atheist is not. I feel sure no one would disagree with that.

I remember, therefore I am.
Dreamy
Posted: Monday, March 11, 2013 4:19:16 AM

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Location: Hamilton, Waikato, New Zealand
jacobusmaximus wrote:
I am simply saying that the spirituality of atheism is completely different from the Spirituality of the Believer in Christ. My belief is that a Christian is indwelt with the Holy Spirit of God and the atheist is not. I feel sure no one would disagree with that.

Or to put it another way, the spirit of atheism is diametrically opposed to the Holy Spirit.

That doesn't mean we can't journey together. We can if it doesn't violate our principles.

A student of biblical theology learns from a passage in Paul's first letter to the Corinthians, that "the natural man receives not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

The same passage also teaches we who are Christians that "we have received not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God."

Job 33:15 "In a dream, in a vision of the night, When deep sleep falls upon men, In slumberings upon the bed;" Theology 101 "If He doesn't know everything then He isn't God."
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