The Free Dictionary  
mailing list For webmasters
Welcome Guest Forum Search | Active Topics | Members

Icelandic People Love Guns But No Gun Murder Since 2007! Here's Why. Options
Posted: Sunday, July 29, 2018 11:03:11 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 3/23/2015
Posts: 8,634
Neurons: 49,468
Location: Burlington, Ontario, Canada
I just saw this. Interesting!

Icelandic people love guns. The small North Atlantic island nation has a rich hunting and sport shooting culture, and there’s about one gun for every three people on the island. But there hasn’t been a gun murder since 2007. Here’s a look at the extensive application and training process required to purchase a firearm in Iceland.

Toronto just had a mass shooting and shootings are getting more frequent in Toronto. So now instead of tightening up against border smuggling, Toronto wants to ban handguns. The illegal gun was smuggled in from the States and is connected to the shooter's brother who is connected to drugs in the States.

Canada's laws are not those of the US and a ban is an over reaction. Handguns for target practice have been registered forever and are restricted use, unlike some other types of guns. It is a lengthy process to get a licence for a handgun in Canada, although not as long as it is in Iceland. A two day intense safety course, weeks before those marks are issued, then you can apply for a licence. They sit on that for a month and then start the background check. The licence allows you to take the gun from residence to range or gunsmith. Period. Could be 4-6 months. Conservatives are agitating for relaxed laws and allowing purchase of soldier type guns - whatever they call them.

They need to tighten the US border, not change Canada's gun laws that are in the middle and have worked for years.

"The louder he talked of his honor, the faster we counted our spoons." Ralph Waldo Emerson (1803-1882)
Posted: Monday, July 30, 2018 3:10:24 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 9/12/2011
Posts: 32,338
Neurons: 196,632
Location: Livingston, Scotland, United Kingdom
You could build a wall, to be paid for by the NRA Russian funding! Whistle Whistle Whistle

Wyrd bið ful aræd - bull!
Posted: Monday, July 30, 2018 4:04:09 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 7/8/2010
Posts: 19,372
Neurons: 78,264
Athough I support strict gun control and it can only be a good thing, I think the comparison here is not about gun law, it is about culture. Or to put it another way - the gun control law is only an example of that culture, that society and the safety of other people is more important than your individual 'rights'.

There is a difference in culture between places where the first reaction to a problem is violence, and a culture where only desperate people make that mistake. In Iceland there is an average around one murder a year, and those have historically almost all been domestic violence cases.

But things are changing.
In 2017 there were four murders. That still makes it a low proportion in world rates, but a massive increase in local terms. Maybe it was a blip. Maybe it is a trend.

But who committed those murders?
1 A Greenlandic sailor abducted and murdered a local girl. Presumably she resisted his advances. He beat and strangled her and threw her into the sea to drown. He had previously been accused of raping an unconscious woman in Greenland but not convicted because his friend said she had consented. His ship had sailed by the time he was identified but it was chased down and he was brought back.

2 A Yemeni asylum seeker murdered a Latvian woman for rejecting his advances. He stalked her, broke into her house and beat her to death with a fire extinguisher

3 A local man stabbed an Albanian in what seems to be an unprovoked attack, presumably linked to mental illness.

4 A local criminal with a long criminal history in organised crime murdered another criminal. He was beaten with an iron bar. His attacker then attempted to resuscitate him but he died.

That is an interesting case, because it shows the difference in expectations from different groups. Six people were involved in the attack.

All six people who have been arrested for the murder of 39 year old Arnar Jónsson have a long criminal records, including assaults and drugs related charges. Some are considered to be among Iceland's most hardened criminals, having been involved in some of the most brutal assaults of recent years.

These are the actions of the locals convicted of the killing:
According to the sources of vísir Sveinn Gestur attacked the victim earlier this spring. This attack is said to have been connected to a drug related debt. Arnar's fiancé, who witnessed Wednesday's attack, has rejected claims that his murder was related to drugs, as Arnar is said to have been clean for a long time.

This man is said to have attempted to resuscitate Arnar after the attack. He had called the emergency phone number 112 during the attack, identifying himself by name, requesting an ambulance to the scene. He was arrested at the scene when police arrived.

The bike gang Fáfnir, which was founded by Jón Trausti, later became a member of Hells Angels. Jón Trausti then left the gang to found a rival gang Black Pistons MC, which is affiliated with the biker gang Outlaws. Jón Trausti has been connected to a number of crimes linked to biker gangs since the turn of the century.

When police arrived at the scene Jón Trausti stood next to the victim as Sveinn Gestur attempted to resuscitate him. He was arrested at the scene.

These are the foreign criminals also involved:

Two other attackers have been identified as Polish immigrants, Marcin Wieslaw Nabakowski and Rafal Marek Nabakowski, know as the Polish brothers or the Nabakowski-brothers. These men, who are in their thirties, are currently waiting appeal in another drug-related attack and attempted murder in a Reykjavík suburb.

The brothers used firearms in this attack. The use of firearms in Icelandic crime is virtually unheard of.

Guns were available to all of these criminals, but only the Poles use them. To them it is normal. They get out of prison in Poland and get on a plane to Iceland because they think it is an easy mark with unarmed police and virtually no crime.

The point is, gun violence is not about guns. It is not even completely about gun control laws. It is about people and their humanity or lack of it.
Once people have lost that humanity, no amount of gun control laws can bring it back. It can make it harder for people to reach for a gun in a moment of anger, but you will never control guns. Canada, with its vast border with the US, will never be able to control the influx of guns. The key is making a society where aiming a gun at a person is just not something a mentally healthy person does. Gun control laws can take care of the mentally unhealthy, but not the criminal or the just plain vicious.

The comparisons that are made intermittently between Iceland and other places are not useful, I think. Americans hear 'low income inequality' but don't get it that that doesn't just happen. It happens because people make a commitment to care about each other - to sacrifice their own potential wealth to pay for a social welfare system, free education, childcare - to invest in society. That counts.
Also, if you are a criminal with any ambition you don't stay in a small town - and you don't stay in a small country!
And there is space to breathe. Go out, away from the stressors that are driving you crazy. Reconnect with nature and interract with people who expect the best of you because you are a human being.

People in Iceland still get that guns are not the answer. A few years ago a local man firing a shotgun into the street and then at police was shot dead by the armed police unit. The first time the police have ever shot someone dead. There were inquiries into how it could have been handled without the use of guns. The police extended their condolences to the family. People sent flowers to the police expressing their condolences to the police officers involved and the force as a whole, for them having the trauma of shooting someone. They get it. Shooting is sad, whoever does it.

But with foreign criminals in particular bringing in illegal guns, it won't be long before the police have to shoot someone else. And then it starts to become normal (edit - I mean gun violence, not police shooting. Once all the other criminals carry guns and use them Icelandic criminals will start to feel the need to carry guns too. And use them.) If you lose that shock, that outrage, then you risk losing the humanity that says 'you don't shoot people!'. Then you risk being truly lost. It must be very hard to recover from that position.

Posted: Monday, July 30, 2018 7:24:36 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 10/2/2015
Posts: 2,046
Neurons: 352,977
Location: Haddington, Scotland, United Kingdom
Thank you Thar. I think that was pretty spot on. I do believe that in the US, there is another variable that may not factor into many other countries. In the US, there are several industries with many billions of dollars of revenue each year that exist solely to sell guns and to legitimize their use against other people. This might be rolled into the culture and humanity portion of your post, but I feel that it is separate because the money changes people's culture and humanity.

Nolite te bastardes carborundorum
Posted: Monday, July 30, 2018 2:41:13 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 3/23/2015
Posts: 8,634
Neurons: 49,468
Location: Burlington, Ontario, Canada
Thar wrote:
the gun control law is only an example of that culture, that society and the safety of other people is more important than your individual 'rights'.

As usual, Thar, right on! Edited - I meant to mention the distinction in Iceland from murder of one for personal reasons to the mass random shootings and vehicle killiings going on elsewhere.

I forgot to mention in the OP that the man with the gun who killed an 18 yr old woman and a 10 yr old girl had had many interventions since childhood for mental illness. His parents had done everything possible to help him and are devastated. Conservatives (read Reform Party that hijacked the conservatives and are similar to Tea Party in US) are trying to back the ISIS theory in spite of there being no evidence for that except that ISIS, as usual, claimed credit. They are using it to drum up an imaginary immigration crisis because of an upswing of refugees from the States because of Trump. Yet there are always lows and highs in numbers at the border. Sound familiar?

In all the rhetoric there seems to be forgetfulness of the two beautiful lives cut short and the several wounded.

Proggy also mentioned the money. As usual that's the bottom line in the US and often in Canada too. Yet I find it hard to believe we are greedier than other humans?

"The louder he talked of his honor, the faster we counted our spoons." Ralph Waldo Emerson (1803-1882)
Users browsing this topic

Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.

Main Forum RSS : RSS
Forum Terms and Guidelines | Privacy policy | Copyright © 2008-2019 Farlex, Inc. All rights reserved.