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This sounds like a reasoned argument . . . Options
Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Saturday, July 7, 2018 11:41:03 AM

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I came across this by accident on Facebook (during my weekly one-hour visit).
He's seemingly a real liberal like most of the members of this forum - dislikes war, dislikes the 'established media', human rights activist, etc. He voted Democrat all through the election year.

Feel free to comment with facts, reasoned arguments etc. (I haven't checked the truth or falsity of his statements). Please, no generalities or unreasoned hyperbole, let's limit this thread to reasoned opinions and verified facts (in both directions).

video

Wyrd bið ful aræd - bull!
FounDit
Posted: Saturday, July 7, 2018 12:43:50 PM

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What surprises me is that, if these were his views all through the year, how is it he voted Democrat all through the year? That seems like a total contradiction because every point he makes is one that would be classified as Conservative by the Progressives here.

But there are few true Liberals left here in the States. The Democrat Party has, IMO, been usurped by Progressives, A.K.A., Socialists/Communists who seek the destruction of the U.S. rather than improvement. Even older established Liberals like Alan Dershowitz are being shunned by the new Progressives, so far to the Political Left have they moved (just as the young man in the video has experienced).
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2018/07/03/alan-dershowitz-slams-marthas-vineyard-liberals-for-shunning-him-over-trump-defense.html

All this is reminiscent of the 1960's radicals (it's just a new generation of the same thinking). We haven't seen the bombings like the Weather Underground (Ideology: Communism, Black Power, Black nationalism, Anti-imperialism, New Left), or the Symbionese Liberation Army killings in the 70's, but it probably won't be long before we do. The Progressives are furious over losing the election to Trump, and can't (will not) accept it. That's why the rhetoric and actions called for are becoming more violent (this from folks who claim to hate violence...lmao). But I remain hopeful, happy and smiling. Our system worked yet once again, but it requires us to be ever-vigilant because our enemy never rests.


We should look to the past to learn from it, not destroy our future because of it — FounDit
Elorac
Posted: Saturday, July 7, 2018 12:46:22 PM
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That has to be the most informed interesting listening I've had in a good while.
Knew that Trump would get in and very glad when he did.
Just wish that we had that level of honesty and backbone here in this country and not the feeble, fake, pathetic shambles that we have.
Thanks DragOnspeaker.
.

A day without laughter... is a day wasted :-)
progpen
Posted: Saturday, July 7, 2018 1:44:09 PM

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1). Ended the TPP. Yes, this is actually a good thing. The TPP was a give away to corporate interests at the expense of taxpayers and the citizenry. It was created to drastically increase the reach and scope of intellectual property rights of corporate interests. The fact that it was all done in secret though is not new or even bad, but even after the agreement they tried to keep it secret, which was damn near evil. There is no reasonable argument in support of secret laws.

2). Military activities by the Trump administration have already resulted in nearly as many civilian deaths as during the entire Obama administration. If the issues in the middle east were cut and dry and easily fixed it would have been done already. Previous US presidents have been well aware of the complexity and volatility of the area and have acted accordingly. I don’t see that the current administration has made any progress and specifically regarding the embassy move to Jerusalem, it has made the situation more volatile.

One major bit of information that needs to be addressed at this point is the fact that the person in the video considers the Democratic Party leadership to be progressive and or liberal. This has been shown not to be the case, even though they may support some left leaning ideas. Democratic war hawks are not the exception, but the rule as are federal Democrats who do not want to restrict or remove corporate money in politics. The Democratic party does have a left wing, but that small subset does not in any way represent the party itself.

One other observation. The speaker’s extensive and consistent hatred for all politicians seems to indicate that he leans more to the anarchist than progressive or liberal. His protestations against all those other people who hate, all while broadcasting his own hatred on the very social media that he hates is more than a bit contradictory.

3). Destroying mainstream media. There does not seem to be any differentiation between journalistic news, social media and political commentary. Trying to destroy journalism in the US is not something to be proud of. The fact that corporate interests own the majority of journalistic news outlets and decide what is reported and what is not, does not mean that journalism is bad. It means that the corporate interests deciding what is reported or not reported is bad.

4). Human trafficking. The speaker seems to have based this on information from the mainstream media that he hates. Statistics are not available yet for 2018, but year to year numbers continue to climb. High profile cases do not indicate significant, or even measurable, yearly change.

Another observation. The air quotes are annoying.

5). Draining the swamp. He is just way off base here unless he truly believes that putting inexperienced wealthy people into public service positions is the best use of taxpayer dollars.

6). Paris climate. It seems that his hatred for politicians has eclipsed his environmentalism. “I have friends who are environmentalists” is not convincing. Also, his over use of “literally”, simply means that he “literally” doesn’t know what he is talking about so he stamps it with a “literally”. He stated that the agreement hasn’t accomplished anything yet. Well, of course not. It doesn’t even go into affect until 2020. It seems that his mainstream media has let him down again.

7). Political correctness. There has already been a lot said about that on this forum so, ‘nuff said.

He does seem to feel that having the doors wide open for more inexperienced billionaires to become president is a good thing though. More power to him. And without that pesky political correctness to slow things down we can get right to having our national leaders say that violence against those who don’t look like you or believe the same as you is acceptable.

It also seems that he believes that the current president has not lied. I’m not even sure where to go with this one, so I’ll leave it there.

He seems to think that news journalism is a binary thing. Either you can report on the Russia scandal or you can report on domestic murders.

I think that once he stops hating everyone and everything who does not see the world exactly like he does, he might make a good progressive.

Nolite te bastardes carborundorum
Hope123
Posted: Saturday, July 7, 2018 3:28:32 PM

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Pro-Trump & Russian-Linked Twitter Accounts Are Posing As Ex-Democrats In New Astroturfed Movement
#WalkAway from this deceptive propaganda campaign


https://arcdigital.media/pro-trump-russian-linked-twitter-accounts-are-posing-as-ex-democrats-in-new-astroturfed-movement-20359c1906d3

FD finds this speaker's conversion strange and I tend to believe it MIGHT be an example of an individual's attempts to do something similar to the russian pro trump bots exploding since June 23, 2018. I can't find this video maker's name, nor do I know his motivations, truthful or paid. But below the video is a promotion requesting donations for an ad agency that promotes quote - "About Paranormal and Parapolitical News and Information".

His stated opinions, and it is only opinion, is basically the Trump playbook talking points.

Generally speaking, to be a reasoned valid argument, better premises, more facts, and less cherry picking would be needed but since Proggy has already analyzed each assertion and there is only one of his that I semi disagree with, I will only comment about two points video guy made - the spin is to make it seem as if Trump is the only president who has ever tried to get out of war (Afghanistan withdrawal was even criticized) or that has ever tackled human trafficking just because of the large numbers caught. That was luck of the draw.

The points made are too simplistic with only one viewpoint allowed. There was no discussion of nor allowance for the fact that opposing views could be right in some instances. This made it sound like propaganda to me.

I found I didn't believe he meant his closing statements so maybe I picked up on the anger Proggy mentioned more than I realized.

Proggy, It is unusual for me to disagree with you, but it may be that I am talking from the CDN agreement viewpoint not knowing the specifics of the US agreements. But I don't agree that the TPP agreement was all bad. Politicians with trade agreement arguments usually try to make a very complex issue simplistic to make political points.

Trade agreements should not be political. (Nor should they be made into reality shows like NAFTA.)

Elitism is the slur directed at merit by mediocrity. -Sydney J. Harris, journalist (14 Sep 1917-1986)
NKM
Posted: Saturday, July 7, 2018 3:53:06 PM

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I shouldn't be here at all, and I shan't stay to "enjoy" all the spin and counter-spin.

I suppose it would be interesting, if only it weren't so depressingly illustrative of the nature of politics per se.

progpen
Posted: Saturday, July 7, 2018 4:01:02 PM

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Hope, you are correct that the agreement was not all bad. I don't believe the public servants involved thought it was a bad thing either.

As for the whole faux liberal, progressive, Democrat thing -- this video was posted on Facebook. One can simply not take what they see there as valid or even based on reality unless it has been well vetted by multiple sources.

Nolite te bastardes carborundorum
BobShilling
Posted: Saturday, July 7, 2018 4:15:53 PM
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Drag0nspeaker wrote:
Feel free to comment with facts, reasoned arguments etc. (I haven't checked the truth or falsity of his statements). Please, no generalities or unreasoned hyperbole, let's limit this thread to reasoned opinions and verified facts (in both directions).


That's very difficult when the chap who made the video spoke with so many generalities and so much unreasoned hyperbole.
Romany
Posted: Sunday, July 8, 2018 7:10:09 PM
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Drago,

Surely you meant to put a Whistle sign in there somewhere when you posited this as fairly "reasoned"?

Not being snarky mate, but you know my rather blunt curiosity. And, as someone pointed out: it's pretty much a text-book demonstration of disinformation.Think So I really don't agree that he seems to have the same viewpoint as the 'average Liberal' here? But it intrigues me why you would have thought that?

My personal illustration of this would be how slickly "People are unhappy with the main stream media" from the follower elides unchallenged into "The Press is the enemy of the people." from the party leader. As the deaths of thousands of dead journalists all over the world attests against.

Hope: The idea of it being a bot also occurred to me. And so did the fact that ten years ago I would have scoffed at the notion. It would have seemed like sci-fi material then.

Proggie - good on you for providing the counters to these arguments. The more people hear this b.s (bot or no bot) racked up against historical/documented facts, the more they should at least allow the possibility of some kernel of validity in another point of view? Enough at least to go to unbiased sources to find out how things really happened?

progpen
Posted: Sunday, July 8, 2018 10:10:39 PM

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Facebook has had a white supremacist posing as a black Vietnam Veteran, Republicans posing as Democrats and Russians posing as just about anyone. This is just another example of someone posing as someone they are not.

Nolite te bastardes carborundorum
Hope123
Posted: Sunday, July 8, 2018 10:34:06 PM

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FounDit wrote: The Democrat Party has, IMO, been usurped by Progressives, A.K.A., Socialists/Communists who seek the destruction of the U.S. rather than improvement.

::

Just a take-off of Niemöller's quotation inspired by many threads and the above oft-repeated statement- which has it backwards by stating that the goal of the Left of helping the average citizen is destruction.

First they came for the Socialists, incorrectly calling them Communists and I did not speak out— Because I was not a Socialist.
Then they came for the Democrats labelling them all Progressives and I did not speak out - Because I loathe Progressives.
Then they came for the Mexicans calling them nasty names, and I did not speak out — Because I was not a Mexican and anyhow I want a wall to stop illegals.
Then they came for the disabled. I did not speak out - Because I believed that my leader making fun of one was "fake news".
Then they came for the Muslims demanding a travel ban, and I did not speak out— Because I was not a Muslim.
Then they came for the media. I did not speak out - Because the media is fake with all their criticisms of my leader.
Then they came for the Departments of Justice. I did not speak out - Because those people are all crooks and the swamp needs to be drained. They have not kept my country safe over the years.
Then they came for the women, creating laws to control women so they have no control over whether or not to have a baby. I did not speak out - Because I was not a woman and besides I like having control over women and see nothing wrong with calling them names in lockers.
Then they came for the babies, taking them from their parents. I did not speak out, even supported it - Because they are not my babies; they are not even American, and after all their parents crossed at the wrong spot on the border. Surely losing their children is just punishment for their arrogance of wanting to get away from persecution.
Then they came for all the good governmental Republicans who are quitting. I did not speak out - Because see excuse for DOJ.
Then they came for the breast milk. When other countries who were for the resolution were blackmailed by my government, I did not speak out - Because American corporations are important to my country's economy and business people know how to put more money in my pocket. Edited - but the US did not threaten Russia when it was for the resolution.

Then they came for democracy and I did not speak out - Because I think the country will be better off without it and the leader is taking the country in the right direction, back to the era that my nostalgia says was good. Of course my memory is not as good as it used to be...
Then they came for me. I did not need to speak out - Because I will be fine. I belong to the military.

At least that is what I thought.

Signed Citizen Comrade

Elitism is the slur directed at merit by mediocrity. -Sydney J. Harris, journalist (14 Sep 1917-1986)
philips daughter
Posted: Sunday, July 8, 2018 11:40:44 PM

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Applause

Did you write that, Hope? It’s very good. That’s how I feel.
progpen
Posted: Sunday, July 8, 2018 11:54:07 PM

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FounDit wrote:
But I remain hopeful, happy and smiling.


Let me finish that for you. FD remains hopeful, happy and smiling because his people have all the guns.

Nolite te bastardes carborundorum
Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Monday, July 9, 2018 5:27:42 AM

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Romany wrote:
So I really don't agree that he seems to have the same viewpoint as the 'average Liberal' here? But it intrigues me why you would have thought that?

Ah - a misunderstanding.
I didn't mean he seems like that, but he is seemingly that. It sounds like a reasoned argument (no shouting, calling others 'communist' or 'rabble' or similar).

seemingly adv
1. in appearance but not necessarily in actuality:

Collins English Dictionary.

Sorry, I didn't think. "Seemingly" also has the other definition (I never use it that way, so I just 'assumed').
seemingly adv
1. in appearance but not necessarily in actuality: with seemingly effortless ease.
2. (sentence modifier) apparently; as far as one knows


As I said, I have not checked any of his statements.

I had hoped that it would spark (as I said) reasoned and unemotional discussion - however it was not to be, with the first reply saying that all progressives are communists and seek the destruction of the USA - then going on to state what 'all progressives' think (which is totally untrue).
I am a progressive (or at least more progressive than conservative) and I don't want the destruction of the USA, and have accepted that Trump is the president, and do not call for violence.
Most of the people I know are similar (some are more 'progressive', some are a bit more 'conservative) - and all have very similar opinions about Trump, the USA and violence.


Wyrd bið ful aræd - bull!
philips daughter
Posted: Monday, July 9, 2018 10:20:07 AM

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You really thought you could have reasonable discussions with Trumpeters? Why is it Liberals are depicted as the unreasonable? The destroyers? Why are we communist sympathizers when the GOP president is the one meeting Putin and saying he’s a good guy? How is that reasonable? The sooner the Socialists leave the Democratic Party the better. You will wish for Democrats.
FounDit
Posted: Monday, July 9, 2018 3:30:49 PM

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It is no surprise that all of you are missing the point. The point is that the video DragOnspeaker posted was a video of a young man expressing his opinion . He clearly is expressing his thoughts and beliefs and is encouraging others to think for themselves rather than to listen to media or talking heads. In other words, don’t be one of Lenin’s “useful idiots”.

In like manner, I, too, am expressing my opinion. That is what forums are for. Somehow, too many of you seem to think that any opinion you disagree with is not to be tolerated. You don’t actually debate issues, and listen respectfully to other ideas, but mock or insult those who hold such positions. This is why Liberals are seen as unreasonable.

But when I say the Progressive Left here in the States support Socialist/Communist doctrine and ideas, I do so because this is what they themselves say and imply. BTW DragOnspeaker, I did say I was speaking of those here in the States in my first post – I really don’t know what "Liberals" are like in Europe or Scandinavia; perhaps they are the same, perhaps not. You might know better than I. But there is a difference between the traditional Liberals of just a score of years ago and today's "Progressives/Progressive Liberals". The latter are extremists.

Case in point, here in the States, is the election of Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez from a tiny little precinct in New York. She is a 28-year old self-professed Marxist/Socialist who just last month defeated a traditional Democrat for a position in the U.S. House of Representatives, District 14.

It was an anomaly (out of about 700,000 people, only 27,658 voted, and 15,897 chose Ocasio-Cortez), but it was sufficient to bring out calls for her ideas to represent the entire National Democrat Party. No less than Tom Perez, chairman of the Democrat National Committee said Socialist Ocasio-Cortez is the “future of our party” [Empahsis FD. I emphasize it because I want people to think about that. Around 16,000 people are used as a proxy to determine the future of the Democrat party].

What does she support? From the link below:
“Ocasio-Cortez is a dues paying member of the New York City Democratic Socialists of America (They advertise themselves as the largest Socialist Organization in the United States. (https://twitter.com/nycDSA/status/1012808259818926080).

That group has recently called to abolish profit, [abolish] prisons, [abolish] cash bail, and [abolish] borders. Ocasio-Cortez has not yet endorsed those goals, but she has called for abolishing ICE (Immigration and Customs Enforcement).”

Without borders, a country cannot exist, so abolishing ICE is essentially abolishing borders, which destroys the country; and this is what I said Progressives want to do. But I said it because, in essence, THEY SAY IT. So Socialists, Progressives, and Democrats are all calling for, and supporting the same thing, therefore, they ARE all the same thing, and what they support would destroy the country.

https://www.kusi.com/dnc-chair-says-democratic-socialist-ocasio-cortez-is-the-future-of-our-party/

Having seen how Socialism/Communism worked under Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Castro, and now Maduro in Venezuela, I tend to have a negative view of it. That’s probably related to the millions of deaths, the equality of poverty, and the destruction of society that results from its establishment.

So mock all you want, Progressives, I will continue to speak ill of it, and have no desire to see it instituted here in the States, under a so-called “Democrat” Party label, or any other. The election of Ocasio-Cortez wouldn’t amount to a pimple on an elephant’s butt, except when the chairman of a major Party here, the Democrat Party, says this kind of thinking is the future of their party. That means it isn’t a conspiracy theory on my part. I take him seriously.



We should look to the past to learn from it, not destroy our future because of it — FounDit
progpen
Posted: Monday, July 9, 2018 3:47:54 PM

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The point of the posted video was actually to give the opinion of a very small group of people who hired an actor to express their thoughts as his.

Nolite te bastardes carborundorum
progpen
Posted: Monday, July 9, 2018 4:05:04 PM

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philips daughter wrote:
The sooner the Socialists leave the Democratic Party the better.


It's happening. Just slower than we might like.

Nolite te bastardes carborundorum
BobShilling
Posted: Monday, July 9, 2018 4:09:13 PM
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FounDit wrote:
Ocasio-Cortez [...] has called for abolishing ICE (Immigration and Customs Enforcement).”

Without borders, a country cannot exist, so abolishing ICE is essentially abolishing borders, which destroys the country;

Rubbish. ICE was set up pursuant to the Homeland Security Act of 2002.United States borders existed for more than two centuries before its formation, and will exist if it is abolished. The agencies that were either moved entirely or merged in part into ICE included the investigative and intelligence resources of the United States Customs Service, the criminal investigative, detention and deportation resources of the Immigration and Naturalization Service, and the Federal Protective Service. The abolition of one law enforcement agency, which will be replaced by one or more other agencies, in no way abolishes borders.
leonAzul
Posted: Monday, July 9, 2018 5:10:07 PM

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Drag0nspeaker wrote:
I came across this by accident on Facebook (during my weekly one-hour visit).
He's seemingly a real liberal like most of the members of this forum - dislikes war, dislikes the 'established media', human rights activist, etc. He voted Democrat all through the election year.

Feel free to comment with facts, reasoned arguments etc. (I haven't checked the truth or falsity of his statements). Please, no generalities or unreasoned hyperbole, let's limit this thread to reasoned opinions and verified facts (in both directions).

video


It is my humble opinion that video is certainly more coherent than this one.

"Make it go away, Mrs Whatsit," he whispered. "Make it go away. It's evil."
Hope123
Posted: Monday, July 9, 2018 5:26:08 PM

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FD, do you not recognize the steps that the US is being taken down the path to autocracy?


Elitism is the slur directed at merit by mediocrity. -Sydney J. Harris, journalist (14 Sep 1917-1986)
leonAzul
Posted: Monday, July 9, 2018 5:36:39 PM

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I returned because in retrospect both my source and the way it is edited might appear biased.

Here is the rally in its entirety from Trump's own channel: ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eskndjIsZy4 )

Please review critically and come to your own conclusions.


"Make it go away, Mrs Whatsit," he whispered. "Make it go away. It's evil."
Hope123
Posted: Monday, July 9, 2018 5:41:15 PM

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FD, maybe you SHOULD be very afraid that the Right will lose out to people like Ocasio-Cortez who really mean it when they say they will help the average person. They will not then turn around and give huge tax breaks to the wealthy.

You are calling her a Marxist Socialist. She is NOT advocating a classless society nor a replacement of capitalism by communism. She is a democratic-socialist.

Please tell me what is destructive about Ocasio-Cortez's policy ideas.

Her own words: Democratic-socialism is about people having a stake in their future through direct representation. It means to guarantee a basic level of economic, social, and racial dignity.

"I believe that in a modern, moral, and wealthy society, no person in America should be too poor to live," she explained (on Colbert show). "What that means to me is health care as a human right, it means that every child no matter where you are born should have access to a college or trade-school education if they so choose it. I think that no person should be homeless if we have public structures or public policy to allow for people to have homes and food and lead a dignified life in the United States."

In her acceptance speech she said, "Working-class Americans want a clear champion and there is nothing radical about moral clarity in 2018."

She refused corporate donations, wants economic justice, wants a $15 minimum wage, is working for her community, and is especially concerned about housing as it is a real problem for her constituents. The median price of a two-bedroom apartment in New York Congressional District 14 has recently gone up 80 percent and the working class can no longer afford to live there.

Everyone bemoans the 1% Factor. She is willing to try to put a hole in that balloon.



Elitism is the slur directed at merit by mediocrity. -Sydney J. Harris, journalist (14 Sep 1917-1986)
Hope123
Posted: Monday, July 9, 2018 5:54:45 PM

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Leon, I had already seen that part and other incoherent parts of Trump's rally. I see why people like his rhetoric. If only it were all true.

I preferred to go look at the Costco email ad that just came in.

Elitism is the slur directed at merit by mediocrity. -Sydney J. Harris, journalist (14 Sep 1917-1986)
Hope123
Posted: Monday, July 9, 2018 6:13:02 PM

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Here's the link on Tea Party dot org where FD got his accusations re Socialism. I read a few comments below about conspiracy theories of socialism and communists. McCarthyism is alive and well in the US. Compare that to the actual goals I listed of democratic-socialism and note the discrepancies.

https://www.teaparty.org/democratic-socialists-home-party-dems-new-star-alexandria-ocasio-cortez-want-abolish-profit-prisons-borders-311827/

Elitism is the slur directed at merit by mediocrity. -Sydney J. Harris, journalist (14 Sep 1917-1986)
progpen
Posted: Monday, July 9, 2018 6:27:03 PM

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BobShilling wrote:
FounDit wrote:
Ocasio-Cortez [...] has called for abolishing ICE (Immigration and Customs Enforcement).”

Without borders, a country cannot exist, so abolishing ICE is essentially abolishing borders, which destroys the country;

Rubbish. ICE was set up pursuant to the Homeland Security Act of 2002.United States borders existed for more than two centuries before its formation, and will exist if it is abolished. The agencies that were either moved entirely or merged in part into ICE included the investigative and intelligence resources of the United States Customs Service, the criminal investigative, detention and deportation resources of the Immigration and Naturalization Service, and the Federal Protective Service. The abolition of one law enforcement agency, which will be replaced by one or more other agencies, in no way abolishes borders.


FD already knows this. It's just a flaccid little half hearted attempt to stir something up with all them liberals. He knows ICE is just an added layer of costly and inefficient bureaucracy that was added to customs and immigration by George W. Bush when he expanded federal government more than any president since Roosevelt's New Deal.

Nolite te bastardes carborundorum
FounDit
Posted: Monday, July 9, 2018 9:33:09 PM

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progpen wrote:

The point of the posted video was actually to give the opinion of a very small group of people who hired an actor to express their thoughts as his.

And you know this … how, exactly? Where is your evidence? But besides that, even if true, so what? It is just as I said, someone expressing their opinion.

philips daughter wrote:
The sooner the Socialists leave the Democratic Party the better.

So you, too, believe that the Democrat Party is filled with Socialists. I agree.

BobShilling wrote:
FounDit wrote:
Ocasio-Cortez [...] has called for abolishing ICE (Immigration and Customs Enforcement).”

Without borders, a country cannot exist, so abolishing ICE is essentially abolishing borders, which destroys the country;


Rubbish. ICE was set up pursuant to the Homeland Security Act of 2002.United States borders existed for more than two centuries before its formation, and will exist if it is abolished. The agencies that were either moved entirely or merged in part into ICE included the investigative and intelligence resources of the United States Customs Service, the criminal investigative, detention and deportation resources of the Immigration and Naturalization Service, and the Federal Protective Service. The abolition of one law enforcement agency, which will be replaced by one or more other agencies, in no way abolishes borders.

Nice dodge, but a totally inaccurate conclusion. You admit all those agencies were rolled up into ICE, but then state they will be replaced by one or more agencies, with no evidence to support that allegation and no one advocating for that. And besides that, why abolish ICE, just to replace it with another, and in what time period? Ocasio-Cortez has never mentioned replacement, just abolishment, as do many on the Political Left here in the States.

Hope123 wrote:

FD, do you not recognize the steps that the US is being taken down the path to autocracy?
And:
Her own words: Democratic-socialism is about people having a stake in their future through direct representation. It means to guarantee a basic level of economic, social, and racial dignity.

I do recognize the threat of Autocracy. That’s why I speak out against Progressivism. And I rather like the system we already have. It isn't yet perfect, but it has made life better for more people where it has been practiced, than any other system previously tried. And the guarantees you speak of have never materialized under Socialism in any of the countries I listed. But then, one has to ask, how basic is the basic level everyone would be happy with? And why be satisfied with just a basic level, because under Socialism, one isn't likely to find upward mobility for the majority of people. And how is it to be achieved? Oddly enough, no one ever says; just pie in the sky Utopianism. And I have to ask, if Socialism is so wonderful, why do so many people try to escape it (Cuba,Venezuela,East Germany, etc.)?

Hope123 wrote:

Compare that to the actual goals I listed of democratic-socialism and note the discrepancies.


We’ve had a hundred years of stated goals for the perfect society under Socialism/Communism, but none of them have materialized as promised. So whom should I believe — you, a Canadian with no influence or power listing the fantasies of Socialism, or the Chairman of the Democrat National Committee who says Ocasio-Cortez’ views of abolishing profits, prisons, bail, and borders are the future of the Party, and by extension, the future of the country if in power? It’s no contest.

All of you are being disingenuous, because I don’t believe any one of you would advocate for the destruction of your own country and culture. Be sure to tell me if you do. I'd be curious to know who you are. Therefore, calls for actions that would destroy ours should be ignored, laughed at, and/or defeated at all costs. And that’s what we are in the process of doing.





We should look to the past to learn from it, not destroy our future because of it — FounDit
progpen
Posted: Monday, July 9, 2018 9:58:20 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

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FounDit wrote:
And you know this … how, exactly? Where is your evidence?


Oh now suddenly you're worried about proof? I'll be happy to revisit some of your alternative facts if you want to talk about proof.

Nolite te bastardes carborundorum
Hope123
Posted: Tuesday, July 10, 2018 12:08:41 AM

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Joined: 3/23/2015
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Location: Burlington, Ontario, Canada
FD, It is impossible to have authentic discourse with you when you refuse to acknowledge that you are not even talking about the same thing Ocasio-Cortez is talking about. In fact, what she would like to happen in the US is not my fantasy but pretty much an actuality in Canada and other countries.

Basic levels are easy to figure out. Experimental programs for a basic income level were tested for more than the disabled or seniors and were successful. In fact, the govt saved money in other areas, and those in the experiment said it made a big improvement in their lives. They could afford child care and transportation to work, and some began studying after work to better themselves.

Quotes as proof are necessary for your repetition that either Ocasio-Cortez or the DNC chairman Perez said anything about profits, prisons, bail, and eliminating borders. In fact Perez said Tuesday that ICE had "endemic problems" but should be reformed rather than eliminated. Pelosi didn't agree that is the future of the party, and the consensus is that that policy would never win the mid west.

I'll be very surprised if you submit proof for your assertions, opinions, and rhetoric.

Elitism is the slur directed at merit by mediocrity. -Sydney J. Harris, journalist (14 Sep 1917-1986)
Hope123
Posted: Tuesday, July 10, 2018 12:15:04 AM

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Location: Burlington, Ontario, Canada
FD, If what is happening in the US right now were happening in Central America you would know what to call it. Oligarchy and then autocracy. Democracy is actually threatened in a "western" state, not by those guns you think you need to overthrow a government, but by the slow, demoralizing process of corruption, deceit, and lack of civility and decency.

The way your government is set up sets the preconditions for autocracy to happen. The US has no easy way to get rid of a bad president and one who is determined to thwart the law to protect himself and those in his circle, even if guilty, or maybe I should say especially if guilty, has many means to do so.

At first Trump just set out to enrich himself and his family as he is doing, but he now sees the allure of power, of being president for life, of being able to do as he pleases, of the pomp and circumstance, and he likes it. It's better than being on TV. But he has to keep himself in power. Hence all the ridicule and threats. And the rallies, the attacks on the media and DOJ, the attacks on any politician or person who criticizes him, the nepotism, the silencing of scientists and government employees, the sucking up to dictators and the attacks on democracies, the approval of only one news source that is loyal to him, the demand for complete loyalty by everyone including the DOJ, and the flagrant policies he does on purpose to stir the opposition so he can point to his base and say, "See. I'm doing a great job". Hate crimes have increased under his watch. They have an example at the top. While he has not sent the gays, disabled, non-whites, non-Christians, or minorities to death camps, he has ridiculed them, removed them from the military, and banned many from the country. These steps have happened before and are happening in other countries too. And he is using the border fiasco to his advantage. Twitter voted - to call him Don the Con. He admitted it himself years ago, that that is how he operates.

But hey, don't worry, be happy.

Elitism is the slur directed at merit by mediocrity. -Sydney J. Harris, journalist (14 Sep 1917-1986)
Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Tuesday, July 10, 2018 4:48:17 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 9/12/2011
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Again we have a few socialist ideas labelled as "Marxist/Communist".
They are worlds apart.

None of these people you name - Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Castro, and now Maduro in Venezuela - were socialist or acted in the LEAST bit socially. They were all dictators pretending to work "for the people".

FounDit wrote:
But I said it because, in essence, THEY SAY IT.

No - a 'twit' from Mike McKinnon III said it.

That "nycDSA status" on Twitter is so obviously someone pretending to be DSA, but spouting deliberately unpopular anarchist propaganda (nothing in it is socialist).
Nothing in that whole 'status' says anything positive about DSA - it is totally anti-DSA.


Wyrd bið ful aræd - bull!
Hope123
Posted: Tuesday, July 10, 2018 12:43:02 PM

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Good observation, Drago, that a twit has a fake account. It is rather hard to discuss anything when one has to continuously correct both inadvertently false information AND spin.

A Rightist conspiracy theory of accusations of violence against the Far Left are endemic in every political post by FD, no matter the topic. That is a classic case of projection.

Statistical Fact: It is the extreme right who holds that honour these days - BUT - neither group of reasonable people justifies violence.

Why Does the Far Right Hold a Near-Monopoly on Political Violence?

https://www.thenation.com/article/why-does-the-far-right-hold-a-near-monopoly-on-political-violence/

"But while the extreme right has held a near-monopoly on political violence since the 1980s, conservatives and Republicans are no more likely to say that using force to achieve one’s political goals is justified than are liberals and Democrats."


(From media bias website - The Nation produces well written journalism that is factual and well sourced. They demonstrate left wing bias in story choices and wording. (5/15/2016) Updated (4/26/2017)

Elitism is the slur directed at merit by mediocrity. -Sydney J. Harris, journalist (14 Sep 1917-1986)
progpen
Posted: Tuesday, July 10, 2018 1:19:30 PM

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Location: Haddington, Scotland, United Kingdom
FounDit wrote:
...how is it he voted Democrat all through the year? That seems like a total contradiction because every point he makes is one that would be classified as Conservative by the Progressives here.


Huh. You think?

I think it's interesting that a reasonably intelligent person is unable to see what this blatant contradiction actually means.

Nolite te bastardes carborundorum
FounDit
Posted: Tuesday, July 10, 2018 2:39:41 PM

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Joined: 9/19/2011
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Hope123 wrote:

FD, It is impossible to have authentic discourse with you when you refuse to acknowledge that you are not even talking about the same thing Ocasio-Cortez is talking about. In fact, what she would like to happen in the US is not my fantasy but pretty much an actuality in Canada and other countries.

Say what? She is talking about abolishing ICE, which would abolish any control of our borders. I think I mentioned that very thing, so I did talk about the same thing she did.

So you say that what she wants for us is pretty much an actuality in Canada and other countries? You all have no border enforcement? When did that happen?

You are correct when you say we can’t have a discourse, because what you say makes no sense, and is provably untrue. When you begin with such a silly statement, It’s hard to take you seriously.

She tells Colbert she wants people to have healthcare, access to a college or trade-school education, homes, and food. We do have all those things. All you have to do is work for them, but perhaps she thinks the government should provide them?

Every creature on Earth has to work for what it gets. The only exceptions are for babies and children. Parents provide money, housing, and healthcare for their babies and children. So which one of those does it make a person who needs a big “Daddy” government to provide those things for them? And if those things can be provided, they can also be taken away.

But doesn’t it undermine the whole “Women’s Movement” meme that a woman says she needs a powerful “Daddy” government to protect and provide for her? That rather alters the old slogan of “I am woman, hear me roar!” to “I am woman, hear me whine and demand!”

What happened to being strong, independent, and able to take care of yourselves? Sounds like a typical Handmaid's Tale to me. It would be more helpful to women if they spoke with some consistency.

Speaking of Socialism and the Big “Daddy” state, defending it becomes a bit awkward when we have the New York Times report from Copenhagen focusing on the socialist-leaning state’s new immigration policy. The policy states that: “Starting at the age of 1, ‘ghetto children’” — that’s apparently the official term used by the Danish government — “must be separated from their families for at least 25 hours a week, not including nap time, for mandatory instruction in ‘Danish values,’ including the traditions of Christmas and Easter, and Danish language. Noncompliance could result in a stoppage of welfare payments.”

Hmm, might we see something similar under American Socialism such as, mandatory instruction in the New American values, including, but not limited to, Global Climate Change, Diversity, “Intersectionality” (whatever-the-hell that is), Gender “studies” (navel gazing), the sin of being born white, and of course, elimination of Christmas and Easter. Islam would be welcomed, however (for a time…*ahem*). This gives new meaning to the words: “There is something rotten in Denmark”. No, thank you.

DragOnspeaker wrote:

Again we have a few socialist ideas labelled as "Marxist/Communist".
They are worlds apart.

None of these people you name - Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Castro, and now Maduro in Venezuela - were socialist or acted in the LEAST bit socially. They were all dictators pretending to work "for the people".

Right, so why would I want to have any system that even remotely approaches what they had/have? I would rather improve the one we already have.

FounDit wrote:
But I said it because, in essence, THEY SAY IT.

No - a 'twit' from Mike McKinnon III said it.

Actually, I said: “Without borders, a country cannot exist, so abolishing ICE is essentially abolishing borders, which destroys the country; and this is what I said Progressives want to do. But I said it because, in essence, THEY SAY IT.”

And that is true. Ocasio-Cortez and others on the Left are calling for the abolition of ICE, which would result in no border enforcement. That part had nothing to do with nycDSA.


That "nycDSA status" on Twitter is so obviously someone pretending to be DSA, but spouting deliberately unpopular anarchist propaganda (nothing in it is socialist).
Nothing in that whole 'status' says anything positive about DSA - it is totally anti-DSA.


I don’t know what you are talking about here, because I took their description of themselves straight from their page:
https://twitter.com/nycDSA






We should look to the past to learn from it, not destroy our future because of it — FounDit
BobShilling
Posted: Tuesday, July 10, 2018 3:03:01 PM
Rank: Member

Joined: 4/1/2018
Posts: 452
Neurons: 3,101
Location: Beroun, Stredocesky, Czech Republic
FounDit wrote:

She is talking about abolishing ICE, which would abolish any control of our borders.


Once again, rubbish.

ICE is responsible for the investigation and enforcement of over 400 federal statutes within the United States. Abolition of ICE would not change those statutes, and another agency or agencies would be made responsible for enforcing them. Patrolling of borders would continue to be carried out, as it is now, by the United States Border patrol, not by ICE.

It is, among other things, criticism of the way that the ICE has functioned which have led for calls for its reform or abolition. As far as I know, nobody is calling for abolition of border controls.



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