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money vs monies Options
Koh Elaine
Posted: Wednesday, July 4, 2018 4:28:00 AM
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What is the difference between "money" and "monies"?

Thanks.
thar
Posted: Wednesday, July 4, 2018 4:34:52 AM

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The common term is money in most cases. It is uncountable.

But sometimes in legal situations you talk about plural items someone has given or received - monies, like goods or payments.

So you might hear it in reports of financial cases or corruption or things like that.


draoubelkacem
Posted: Wednesday, July 4, 2018 10:40:50 AM

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can you give further explantions
TMe
Posted: Wednesday, July 4, 2018 11:06:59 AM

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For example

"However, they have sent no word, and until they do so I cannot act to release the promised monies to relieve the Lucas's plight."

Fidelis Morgan THE RIVAL QUEENS: A COUNTESS ASHBY DE LA ZOUCHE MYSTERY (2002)

`Our noble innkeeper, whatever he may say, has been through the pockets of both victims and kept whatever monies he has found.

Grace, C.L A SHRINE OF MURDERS (2002)

I am a layman.
TMe
Posted: Wednesday, July 4, 2018 11:08:05 AM

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For example

"However, they have sent no word, and until they do so I cannot act to release the promised monies to relieve the Lucas's plight."

Fidelis Morgan THE RIVAL QUEENS: A COUNTESS ASHBY DE LA ZOUCHE MYSTERY (2002)

`Our noble innkeeper, whatever he may say, has been through the pockets of both victims and kept whatever monies he has found.

Grace, C.L A SHRINE OF MURDERS (2002)

IMO , 'Monies' include currency and valuable assets.

I am a layman.
TMe
Posted: Wednesday, July 4, 2018 11:16:11 AM

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For example

"However, they have sent no word, and until they do so I cannot act to release the promised monies to relieve the Lucas's plight."

Fidelis Morgan THE RIVAL QUEENS: A COUNTESS ASHBY DE LA ZOUCHE MYSTERY (2002)

`Our noble innkeeper, whatever he may say, has been through the pockets of both victims and kept whatever monies he has found.

Grace, C.L A SHRINE OF MURDERS (2002)

IMO , 'Monies' include currency and valuable assets.

money
[muhn-ee]
noun, plural mon·eys, mon·ies.
any circulating medium of exchange, including coins, paper money, and demand deposits.
paper money.
gold, silver, or other metal in pieces of convenient form stamped by public authority and issued as a medium of exchange and measure of value.
any article or substance used as a medium of exchange, measure of wealth, or means of payment, as checks on demand deposit or cowrie.
a particular form or denomination of currency.
money of account.
capital to be borrowed, loaned, or invested:
mortgage money.
an amount or sum of money:
Did you bring some money?
wealth considered in terms of money:
She was brought up with money.
moneys. Also monies. Chiefly Law. pecuniary sums.
property considered with reference to its pecuniary value.
pecuniary profit:
not for love or money.
Source; Dictionary.com



I am a layman.
thar
Posted: Wednesday, July 4, 2018 11:55:16 AM

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Be careful with your citations - sometimes fiction or historical writing can be misleading.

Note those examples are intentionally archaic writing because they are historical fiction.

CL Grace writes about Mediaeval England. I think this book is set in 1472.

The whole story is linked to tales in Chaucer's Canterbury Tales.



The book by Fidelis Morgan is set in 1699.



They are using archaic language to give a historical tone to the book.


You would never say those things in contemporary English.


If you ask most English people about 'monies' I think the closest most will get, unless they work in financial law, is to remember some Shakespeare:

Quote:
Signior Antonio, many a time and oft
In the Rialto you have rated me
About my moneys and my usances:
Still have I borne it with a patient shrug,
For sufferance is the badge of all our tribe.
You call me misbeliever, cut-throat dog,
And spit upon my Jewish gaberdine,
And all for use of that which is mine own.


It goes on but I doubt people remember the whole speech:

Quote:
Well then, it now appears you need my help.
Go to, then! You come to me and you say,
“Shylock, we would have moneys.” You say so!—
You, that did void your rheum upon my beard
And foot me as you spurn a stranger cur
Over your threshold! Moneys is your suit.
What should I say to you? Should I not say,
“Hath a dog money? Is it possible
A cur can lend three thousand ducats?” Or
Shall I bend low and in a bondman’s key
With bated breath and whispering humbleness
Say this:
“Fair sir, you spet on me on Wednesday last;
You spurned me such a day; another time
You called me ’dog'—and for these courtesies
I’ll lend you thus much moneys?”


This is archaic language!

You tell him, Shylock!
You should never have lent him anything. Whistle
Koh Elaine
Posted: Monday, July 9, 2018 12:10:14 PM
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Thanks, everybody.
lazarius
Posted: Monday, July 9, 2018 2:12:22 PM

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thar wrote:
Note those examples are intentionally archaic writing because they are historical fiction.
[snip]
You would never say those things in contemporary English.


But if I want to give to my text this archaic feel say if I write on history, can't I use the word?

Less than 2 weeks ago we were to give a talk in our school and mine was a "historic" one and I used the word in it. And our teacher didn't say it was wrong.

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thar
Posted: Monday, July 9, 2018 2:41:39 PM

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Yes, absolutely. That is what these writers did.

And I would never say you shouldn't use a word just because it is archaic, if you are using it in a way that it fits.
My answer is more about what is normal in modern British English, although this word is still used in modern English in certain circumstances.

That doesn't mean you can't have fun with the language in the right place.
lazarius
Posted: Monday, July 9, 2018 3:41:15 PM

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thar wrote:
My answer is more about what is normal in modern British English, although this word is still used in modern English in certain circumstances.

That doesn't mean you can't have fun with the language in the right place.


Yes. it was a joke. You can take a look at it if you have 5 minutes:

https://bersao.livejournal.com

Thank you.


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Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Tuesday, July 10, 2018 2:18:01 AM

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Well, the answer comes instantly to mind if you are my age - six sausages each and a penny each to keep for tomorrow . . .

Yes - possibly not exactly how our ancestors really spoke, but it's how we imagine them speaking.

Like thar, I think of "monies" only as a legal term, now.

I think you'll enjoy this small book. The original stories were written about 1880 as magazine articles. I hope Project Gutenberg is available to you.

"I did dream of money-bags to-night."

Wyrd bið ful aræd - bull!
lazarius
Posted: Tuesday, July 10, 2018 4:53:22 AM

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Drag0nspeaker wrote:
Well, the answer comes instantly to mind if you are my age - six sausages each and a penny each to keep for tomorrow . . .

Ah! You read it! :) Hope you enjoyed it.

Drag0nspeaker wrote:
I think you'll enjoy this small book. The original stories were written about 1880 as magazine articles. I hope Project Gutenberg is available to you.

Recently I had a bad experience reading a book by this same author on the said Project:

http://www.gutenberg.org/files/12/12-h/12-h.htm

Lots of mistakes. When I bumped into this:

Quote:
CHAPTER VI. Humpty Dumpty

‘It’s very provoking,’ Humpty Dumpty said after a long silence, looking away from Alice as he spoke, ‘to be called an egg—Very!’
‘I said you looked like an egg, Sir,’ Alice gently explained. ‘And some eggs are very pretty, you know’ she added, hoping to turn her remark into a sort of a compliment.

I thought that this way I would not learn good English and tried a couple of other free resources. It looks like from the said Project it has spread to everywhere and can be found in books on linguistics:

https://books.google.com/books?id=gfcwBwAAQBAJ&printsec=frontcover&q=%22a%20sort%20of%20a%20compliment%22

In the end I had to resort to this:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07DGK4ZP1

Fortunately, it has the book you are talking about and I will certainly read it when I am done with "Trilby".


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Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Tuesday, July 10, 2018 5:28:35 AM

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Hmmmm Think Think I'm confused.

I don't see anything wrong with that quotation.
Or am I missing an error and 'dubbing in' the correct statement.
The grammar is a sort of a mock-formal conversation (it's a little girl trying to be extra-polite).

Are you meaning the word 'compliment'? (since that is what is shown bold).

compliment n
1. a remark or act expressing respect, admiration, etc
2. (usually plural) a greeting of respect or regard
vb (tr)
3. to express admiration of; congratulate or commend
4. to express or show respect or regard for, esp by a gift
[C17: from French, from Italian complimento, from Spanish cumplimiento, from cumplir to complete, do what is fitting, be polite]
Usage: Avoid confusion with complement


**********************
Yes I did read the blog - on my current schedule (this week) I have a lot of time to be online - so long as it is not something which distracts me for more than a couple of minutes at a time. However, I couldn't read a printed book.

That is why some of my replies take a long time - I type a sentence or two, then go off to do something else, then come back to do a few more sentences.

Wyrd bið ful aræd - bull!
lazarius
Posted: Tuesday, July 10, 2018 5:46:15 AM

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Drag0nspeaker wrote:
I don't see anything wrong with that quotation.

The second indefinite article. Here's the original edition:

https://books.google.com/books?id=aOKruPEWBqEC&printsec=frontcover&q=%22a%20sort%20of%20compliment%22

Fortunately, I can distinguish a context where the indefinite article in sort of a is not idiomatic from a one where it is:

https://books.google.com/books?id=jgkGAAAAQAAJ&printsec=frontcover&q=%22sort%20of%20a%20dance%22

Quote:
“You may not have lived much under the sea—” (“I haven’t,” said Alice)—“and perhaps you were never even introduced to a lobster—” (Alice began to say “I once tasted—” but checked herself hastily, and said, “No, never”)—“so you can have no idea what a delightful thing a Lobster-Quadrille is!”
“No, indeed,” said Alice. “What sort of a dance is it?”



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BobShilling
Posted: Tuesday, July 10, 2018 8:11:18 AM
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Drag0nspeaker wrote:
I don't see anything wrong with that quotation..

Neither do I

lazarius wrote:
Drag0nspeaker wrote:
I don't see anything wrong with that quotation.

The second indefinite article.

There is nothing wrong with that article.

Quote:
Fortunately, I can distinguish a context where the indefinite article in sort of a is not idiomatic from a one where it is.

It seems to me that the article is optional with singular countable nouns. How do you distinguish between idiomatic and non-idiomatic forms?
Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Tuesday, July 10, 2018 8:29:15 AM

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Ah!
I didn't notice that because both versions are 'correct'.

The Handbook of Composition from 1911 says that "a sort of a" is inelegant - but not that it's incorrect.
It is a form which is used occasionally (and Lewis Carroll uses so many 'odd' phrases that I didn't notice this one).

"I preserved this portion of the letter as a sort of a memento of that occasion." - Proceedings Before a Committee of the United States Senate - 1911
"it's a sort of a comforting sound" - Our Navy, the Standard Publication of the U.S. Navy - 1918
"John Ray who was a sort of a ring-leader" - Recollections of a Long Life - Elijah L. Shettles, ‎Archie P. McDonald - 1973
"they were using a sort of a Harvard from the 1930s as a model" - Architecture and Urbanism - 2003.

I must admit - it's very uncommon! But it's a known phrase.
"What sort of a" is more common - though I would normally ask "What sort of dance is it?"

Wyrd bið ful aræd - bull!
BobShilling
Posted: Tuesday, July 10, 2018 8:52:55 AM
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Michael Swan (Practical English Usage, 3rd edition,2005.552) notes: The article a/an is usually dropped after sort of, kind of and type of, but structures with articles are possible in an informal style.

The first significant word is usually; the second is informal, not incorrect.
lazarius
Posted: Tuesday, July 10, 2018 8:59:25 AM

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BobShilling wrote:
Quote:
Fortunately, I can distinguish a context where the indefinite article in sort of a is not idiomatic from a one where it is.

It seems to me that the article is optional with singular countable nouns. How do you distinguish between idiomatic and non-idiomatic forms?

In this thread:

https://forum.thefreedictionary.com/postst175512_-a--sort-of--a-.aspx

Drag0nspeaker wrote:
In my opinion, it is not 'correct English'.

My opinion is that it is not correct in a context when its meaning is direct, literal - something belongs to a class. And that's exactly how it is used in the quote from Through the Looking-Glass. There was nothing about the remark being a compliment (and you scarcely can infer it from the text) before the phrase and it is this phrase that places the remark into the class of compliments. The article is not idiomatic in this example.

In the quote from Alice's Adventures it is known that lobster quadrille is a dance. Alice is just asking what it is like. The article is idiomatic in this context.

A different sort of idiomatic use can be found in this thread:

http://forum.thefreedictionary.com/postst179338_He-had-to-have-some-sort-of-a-background.aspx

It just means that he had to have a soupçon of it.

Drag0nspeaker wrote:
I didn't notice that because both versions are 'correct'.

No they are not. I can not say it for sure without context but some of the quotes you have presented look suspicious to me.

There was a time when this was considered correct:

https://books.google.com/books?id=9fPPAAAAMAAJ&printsec=frontcover&q=%22kind%20of%20a%22

Quote:
As for the creature I killed, I took it to be a kind of a hawk, its colour and beak resembling it, but it had no talons or claws more than common. Its flesh was carrion, and fit for nothing.

Not in the 19th or 20th century.




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BobShilling
Posted: Tuesday, July 10, 2018 9:43:41 AM
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lazarius wrote:

Drag0nspeaker wrote:
I didn't notice that because both versions are 'correct'.

No they are not.


Well, as I have said, I do. Michael Swan does, and so do Quirk et al (A Comprehensive Grammar of the English Language, 1985.451):


With kind of and sort of there are several possible constructions in informal style:

This must be ...

... a sort of joke.
... sort of a joke. (informal)
... a sort of a joke. (more informal)
... a joke, sort of. (most informal)
Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Tuesday, July 10, 2018 10:00:12 AM

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I'm not going to argue semantics or the philosophy of seemingness.

In the way it is used there - "‘And some eggs are very pretty, you know’ she added, hoping to turn her remark into a sort of a compliment." - the use of the second "a" would be acceptable in conversation (which is its context, a conversation between Alice and Humpty Dumpty). It would be acceptable in the twentieth and twenty-first centuries.

You mis-quote me by giving half of the statement but not the rest.

Drag0nspeaker wrote:
"a sort of a" is rare - you may hear it occasionally, but I don't think you would see it written except as direct speech.

In my opinion, it is not 'correct English'. It may be dialect or simply a colloquialism, I'm not sure.
"A sort of (a)" means the same as the adverbial "sort of (a)".
It's sort of a book.
It's a sort of a book. It isn't really a book, but is very like one in some ways.


It appears it is more a colloquialism than dialect.

The comment from Alice is a sort of a compliment - not really one, but very like one in some ways.

Your example - "As for the creature I killed, I took it to be a kind of a hawk, its colour and beak resembling it, but it had no talons or claws more than common. Its flesh was carrion, and fit for nothing." - was considered acceptable informal English in the time of Defoe, and is still considered acceptable informal English.



Wyrd bið ful aræd - bull!
lazarius
Posted: Tuesday, July 10, 2018 10:04:41 AM

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BobShilling wrote:
... a sort of joke.

This can be just as informal as the next if sort of is used as an adjectival that is when the article belongs to joke not sort:

a (sort of) joke.

And you know what? This (just as the 2nd and the last of your examples) just does not pertain to our discussion. :)

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lazarius
Posted: Tuesday, July 10, 2018 10:17:17 AM

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Drag0nspeaker wrote:
In the way it is used there - "‘And some eggs are very pretty, you know’ she added, hoping to turn her remark into a sort of a compliment." - the use of the second "a" would be acceptable in conversation (which is its context, a conversation between Alice and Humpty Dumpty).

There's something you are missing. This is not Alice, this is Lewis Carroll narrating.

Drag0nspeaker wrote:
Your example - "As for the creature I killed, I took it to be a kind of a hawk, its colour and beak resembling it, but it had no talons or claws more than common. Its flesh was carrion, and fit for nothing." - was considered acceptable informal English in the time of Defoe, and is still considered acceptable informal English.

Probably this is why the article disappears from the book starting from the second half of the 19th century:

https://books.google.com/books?id=wZdBAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA55&dq=%22took+it+to+be+a+kind+of+hawk%22



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BobShilling
Posted: Tuesday, July 10, 2018 10:43:58 AM
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lazarius wrote:
BobShilling wrote:
... a sort of joke.

This can be just as informal as the next if sort of is used as an adjectival that is when the article belongs to joke not sort:

a (sort of) joke.

And you know what? This [...] just does not pertain to our discussion.


Doubtless you will find reasons why the 53 examples here do not pertain to our discussion either.

Or the view expressed here:

BBC Learning English: Sort of / kind of / type of are usually followed by an uncountable noun or a singular countable noun with no article, but a / an is sometimes retained in an informal style.

So, I'll leave you to it.
lazarius
Posted: Tuesday, July 10, 2018 10:56:13 AM

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BobShilling wrote:
So, I'll leave you to it.

I'll tell you what. :) I do not give a flying bleep about your 53 examples without context or provenance. Suffice it to say that I immediately understood that there was something wrong with the Project Gutenberg "edition" of Lewis Carroll's book.


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BobShilling
Posted: Tuesday, July 10, 2018 2:35:22 PM
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lazarius wrote:

I do not give a flying bleep about your 53 examples without context or provenance..


Each example comes with the source. If you click on 'open' (next to the example) and then on 'context.', you will find some context.
lazarius
Posted: Tuesday, July 10, 2018 2:49:09 PM

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BobShilling wrote:
Each example comes with the source. If you click on 'open' (next to the example) and then on 'context.', you will find some context.

I've done a research on this question and have already seen enough examples.

And I thought you left me last time. A spooky sort of a [sic] fella you are. :)

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BobShilling
Posted: Tuesday, July 10, 2018 3:11:26 PM
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lazarius wrote:

I've done a research on this question and have already seen enough examples.

So any counter-examples can be ignored. Fine.

Quote:
And I thought you left me last time,

I have left the discussion. There is no point in attempting to discuss anything with someone who doesn't 'give a flying bleep' about points made.
I shall continue to point out untrue statements such as your "your 53 examples without context or provenance". Provenance was given, and a link to context was provided.
Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Wednesday, July 11, 2018 12:06:39 PM

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lazarius wrote:
There's something you are missing. This is not Alice, this is Lewis Carroll narrating.

Sorry, this book (the double book "Alice's Adventures in Wonderland" and "Through the Looking-Glass and what Alice Found There") is used a LOT by friends of mine. It is often referred to as "Dear Alice" or just "Alice".

My statement "the comment from Alice" was meant to convey "the comment from the composite book 'Alice's Adventures'".
You're right, it was not actually part of the conversation with Humpty-Dumpty.

Wyrd bið ful aræd - bull!
leonAzul
Posted: Thursday, July 12, 2018 9:08:24 PM

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draoubelkacem wrote:
can you give further explantions


When used as a countable plural, the word "monies" is an abstraction that refers to several accounts comprising liquid currencies for specific purposes which can be exchanged for equivalent value on demand.

Please read this explication critically.


"Make it go away, Mrs Whatsit," he whispered. "Make it go away. It's evil."
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