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Koh Elaine
Posted: Monday, July 2, 2018 11:01:23 PM
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The former prime minister told Malaysiakini in an interview published today that he did not see any problems with having the money in his account since Bank Negara did not query him on it.

“If Bank Negara is in the know of these funds and they had an inkling or some knowledge that there could be some doubts about the source of the funds, I expected them to tell me.

Is the part in bold commonly used by native speakers?

Thanks.
thar
Posted: Tuesday, July 3, 2018 1:02:25 AM

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No,it feels like two things have been mixed up, to me.


You are in the know

You are in the know about something


Or, more simply and better


You know about something.


S!lightly different meaning - to know something exists:
You know of something


Or you have knowledge of



But not ' in the know of'.


mactoria
Posted: Tuesday, July 3, 2018 4:37:10 AM
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Koh Elaine: Agree with Thar. An native English speaker (American) would most like say something like "If Bank Negara knew of these funds..." or "If Bank Negara was aware of these funds..."
sureshot
Posted: Tuesday, July 3, 2018 4:46:36 AM
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Koh Elaine wrote:
The former prime minister told Malaysiakini in an interview published today that he did not see any problems with having the money in his account since Bank Negara did not query him on it.

“If Bank Negara is in the know of these funds and they had an inkling or some knowledge that there could be some doubts about the source of the funds, I expected them to tell me.

Is the part in bold commonly used by native speakers?

Thanks.


_____________________________

First, we should be clear of the meaning of "is in the know of". The expression means "is aware of something known only to a few people". It has the sense of "is privy to". One meaning of the verb "know" is "have knowledge or information concerning". The phrase 'in the know of" has a different sense from that of the verb "know"

In my view, the phrase "is in the know of" is apt to convey the desired sense by all speakers of English.


thar
Posted: Tuesday, July 3, 2018 5:55:10 AM

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I have to disagree. It may be standard Indian English but it certainly sounds wrong to both British and American English speakers (mactoria and myself). Again, one of those things where it sounds fine to one audience but wrong to another.
I can only answer for British English, so sometimes I will say something sounds wrong where it might be fine in Indian English.
BobShilling
Posted: Tuesday, July 3, 2018 6:07:23 AM
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thar wrote:
I have to disagree. It may be standard Indian English but it certainly sounds wrong to both British and American English speakers (mactoria and myself).
And to my wife and me, both speakers of BrE.
Koh Elaine
Posted: Tuesday, July 3, 2018 9:23:14 AM
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Thanks to all of you.
palapaguy
Posted: Wednesday, July 4, 2018 12:11:35 AM

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sureshot wrote:


First, we should be clear of the meaning of "is in the know of". The expression means "is aware of something known only to a few people". It has the sense of "is privy to". One meaning of the verb "know" is "have knowledge or information concerning". The phrase 'in the know of" has a different sense from that of the verb "know"

In my view, the phrase "is in the know of" is apt to convey the desired sense by all speakers of English.


Agree. "In the know" is quite familiar to older AE speakers. It is a bit "Humphrey Bogartish-ish" and implies secrecy/intrigue.

However, it is out of place in the given example.
sureshot
Posted: Wednesday, July 4, 2018 2:38:40 AM
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palapaguy wrote:
[quote=sureshot]


Agree. "In the know" is quite familiar to older AE speakers. It is a bit "Humphrey Bogartish-ish" and implies secrecy/intrigue.

However, it is out of place in the given example.


___________________

I thought the following might be of interest to many of us:

SOURCE: COLLINS DICTIONARY (https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/in-the-know)

in the know (in British)informal = aware or informed

in the know (in American) Informal = having confidential information

- People in the know think something else might be up. Times, Sunday Times (2016)
- But he does count himself in the know about human nature. Times, Sunday Times (2006)
- The more people in the know, the more chance there is of information leaking out. Times, Sunday Times (2009)
- With so many people in the know, how could a man so well connected not have known? Times, Sunday Times (2015)
- It will come as a surprise to many, as the only people fully in the know were their parents. Times, Sunday Times (2010)
- I pick companies after speaking with people in the know in China and using my own local knowledge. Times, Sunday Times (2012)


SOURCE MACMILLAN DICTIONARY (https://www.macmillandictionary.com/dictionary/british/know_2?q=in+the+know#know_2__1)

phrase in the know
people in the know have more information about something than other people
- Those in the know say he will resign before Christmas.

SOURCE OXFORD LIVING DICTIONARY (https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/be_in_the_know)

be in the know phrase = Be aware of something known only to a few people.
he had a tip from a friend in the know: the horse was a cert

‘In today's information-based society, there are few things more infuriating than not being in the know.’
‘But you have to be in the know to have access to the best-kept secret in showbiz.’
‘She had learned to appear as if she were in the know even if she was utterly lost.’
‘Essentially, one needs to be in the know to make the most of Berlin's nightlife.’
‘For those of you not hip enough to be in the know, Nu Metal is the name of a new type of ‘extreme’ music that the kids are listening to these days.’
‘I figured everyone else was in the know so I didn't want to come across as an idiot by having to ask.’
‘But we don't really learn anything about how the fraud was committed, when it began, and who else was in the know apart from Mr Sullivan and Mr Myers.’
‘Speak to any number of cricketing pundits who claim to be in the know, and they will all maintain that it was Ian Chappell, and his team of the 1970s, who started the dreadful business of sledging.’
‘Canadian fans have been in the know about this band for years, but it's time for us to learn how to share.’
‘Well, I used to pride myself as being in the know but I have heard nothing about this idea.’


SOURCE: Merriam Webster Dictionary: (http://www.learnersdictionary.com/definition/know)

2 know /ˈnoʊ/ noun
Learner's definition of KNOW
in the know: having knowledge about something : having information that most people do not have

people who are in the know
For those of you not in the know, Jane is the person who founded this organization.

SOURCE: Cambridge Dictionary (https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/know?q=in%2Bthe%2Bknow)


be in the know = to have knowledge about something that most people do not have:
- This resort is considered by those who are in the know to have the best downhill skiing in Europe

Dictionary.com (http://www.dictionary.com/browse/in--the--know)

Idioms
in the know: possessing inside, secret, or special information.

In all the above references, "know" is being used as a noun. The fact that the phrase "in the know" is mentioned in a variety of dictionaries based on American English and British English can lead to one conclusion i.e. the expression has currency in both AE and British English.

For the curious minded, the sentence has been taken from

https://www.malaysiakini.com/news/432462

EXTRACT

Former Bank Negara governor Zeti Akthar Aziz has said she will issue a response to the allegation that she was aware of the RM2.6 billion in former premier Najib Abdul Razak's personal bank accounts.

“I’m not going to comment on that now because it’s a case...I cannot comment on that now. But at some point, you will get the comment,” she was quoted by Bernama as telling reporters at Ilham Tower in Kuala Lumpur today.

Last week, Najib, in an exclusive interview with Malaysiakini, claimed that Zeti was aware of the colossal sum transferred into his accounts ahead of the 13th general election.

He alleged that Zeti did not raise any questions or red flags about the transaction.

If Bank Negara is in the know of these funds and they had an inkling or some knowledge that there could be some doubts about the source of the funds, I expected them to tell me.

“But nothing of that sort happened. So I assumed all along that it was fine,” he said.

- THE STRAIT TIMES, KUALA LUMPUR Published Jul 3, 2018,
- THE STAR ONLINE, Tuesday, 3 Jul 2018
- MALAYSIA PRESS: News Headlines On Tuesday, July 3

*Najib: Zeti Knew About RM2.6bil, But Did Nothing

Former premier Najib Razak has alleged that former Bank Negara Malaysia governor Zeti Akhtar Aziz knew about the RM2.6 billion in his bank account prior to GE13, but did not question about it. “If Bank Negara is in the know of these funds and they had an inkling or some knowledge that there could be some doubts about the source of the funds, I expected them to tell me. “But nothing of that sort happened. So I assumed all along that it was fine,” he was quoted as saying by Malaysiakini during an interview. Asked if she had raised any red flags over the matter, Najib said: “No, there was no comeback from BNM. I assumed everything was fine.” - The Star







BobShilling
Posted: Wednesday, July 4, 2018 3:39:35 AM
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sureshot wrote:
In all the above references, "know" is being used as a noun. The fact that the phrase "in the know" is mentioned in a variety of dictionaries based on American English and British English can lead to one conclusion i.e. the expression has currency in both AE and British English.


Nobody has suggested that it isn't. All we speakers of BrE and AmE are saying is that 'in the know of' is not used in our varieties.
thar
Posted: Wednesday, July 4, 2018 4:17:56 AM

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Yes, just to be clear:

To be 'in the know' is a very common expression in British English.


But it is 'in the know of' that sounds wrong to British and American English ears.


You can see the dictionary examples are 'in the know' whereas the extract with 'in the know of' is Malaysian.

Your endorsement of it suggests it is used in this region's version of English. That is not in dispute.


But there is a difference between ' in the know' and 'in the know of something'.

Edited

sureshot
Posted: Wednesday, July 4, 2018 6:17:44 AM
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thar wrote:
Yes, just to be clear.

To be 'in the know' is a very common expression in British English.


But it is 'in the know of' that sounds wrong to British and American English ears.


You can see the dictionary examples are 'in the know' whereas the extract with 'in the know of' is Malaysian - as in Koh Elaine's original example.

That does suggest, along with your endorsement of it, that it is used in this region's version of English. That is not in dispute.


_________________________

If my point that "in the know" is indeed a part of British English and American English, then there is little to elucidate. The choice of preposition like "of" and "about" or perhaps none at all depends on the sentence pattern and it is the case in all forms of English.

Some example sentences with a preposition are:

- But he does count himself in the know about human nature. Times, Sunday Times (2006)
- I pick companies after speaking with people in the know in China and using my own local knowledge. Times, Sunday Times (2012)
-‘Canadian fans have been in the know about this band for years, but it's time for us to learn how to share.’- Oxford Dictionary
- Diya is said to have been in the know of what exactly killed Yar'Adua and the way he was done in, which is known only in certain restricted circles. (The News, Volume 10, Issues 1-16)


COLLINS DICTIONARY


- It was gratifying to be in the know about important people.

Some examples from TFD are:

- He's in the know about the mayor's plans.
- Only a few of us were in the know about the date of the wedding.
- Not too many people are in the know about this project.

BobShilling
Posted: Wednesday, July 4, 2018 6:28:50 AM
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sureshot wrote:
The choice of preposition like "of" and "about" or perhaps none at all depends on the sentence pattern and it is the case in all forms of English.

With 'in the know,

'of is simply not an option in British and American English;
we don't use 'of' in British or American English;
'of' is unnatural in British and American English.

The preposition in your first three examples is 'about', not 'of'.

Quote:
- Diya is said to have been in the know of what exactly killed Yar'Adua and the way he was done in, which is known
only in certain restricted circles. (The News, Volume 10, Issues 1-16)[b]

The names and the constructions in that sentence suggest it was not written by a native speaker of BrE or AmE..
sureshot
Posted: Wednesday, July 4, 2018 6:40:52 AM
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BobShilling wrote:
sureshot wrote:
The choice of preposition like "of" and "about" or perhaps none at all depends on the sentence pattern and it is the case in all forms of English.

With 'in the know,

'of is simply not an option in British and American English;
we don't use 'of' in British or American English;
'of' is unnatural in British and American English.

The preposition in your first three examples is 'about', not 'of'.

Quote:
- Diya is said to have been in the know of what exactly killed Yar'Adua and the way he was done in, which is known
only in certain restricted circles. (The News, Volume 10, Issues 1-16)

The names and the constructions in that sentence suggest it was not written by a native speaker of BrE or AmE..


______________________________________

Perhaps the following will explain why I disagree

REFERENCE: Corpus of Contemporary American English

TITLE: Always Unique; Author: Turner, Nikki.
[b]Publication information
: New York : St. Martin's Griffin,Edition: First edition.
He never left the house unless he was suited and booted from head to toe. Indeed, he had the best of both worlds: he was a hugely successful boxing promoter putting together world-class prizefights, and still had a hand and a foot in the know of the streets.

sureshot
Posted: Wednesday, July 4, 2018 7:49:19 AM
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Here are a few more sentences that validate the use of idiom "in the know" + preposition "of".

A collection of English corpora (SOURCE: NEW YORK TIMES)

When an Internal Revenue Service agent said she wanted to audit Dave and Lucille Miller 's 1993 and 1994 tax returns, the couple thought it sounded like a simple thing. ` ` She called my wife, asked her a few questions and said, ` Well, you seem to be pretty well in the know of what 's going on, ' ' ' said Miller, an auto salvage dealer in Clearwater, Minn.

He said Southeast Asian countries could strengthen their position against terrorists by increasing the exchange of intelligence. Hill said the threat of terrorism " may seem more threatening now because we are in the know of the greater risks involved but on the other hand, it is less threatening because action is being taken against it.

For if the temple were destroyed, surely Paul, who was constantly in the know of the major events of his community of Christians, Jews and Romans, would have mentioned such a monumental devastation at least once.

She was always there to greet and seat the guests, sing a song now and then, listen to customer 's woes or pass on a message, give a newcomer a room upstairs, give a new singer a break, and conveniently overhear conversations which kept her in the know of all of Genoa City 's residents.

Through the medium of such online diaries, they have kept millions of others in the know of their personal plans, thoughts, their medical treatment procedures, etc.

Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Thursday, July 5, 2018 3:07:06 AM

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To save you digging out any more obscure uses of "in the know of" from American writers who choose to use unusual or archaic forms:

Here is the comparison graph for "in the know of" and "in the know about" - if you change the language from "English Fiction" to "American English" or "British English" and the hit the "Search lots of books" button, you will see that the comparison is similar for both dialect-groups.
"English Fiction" gives the best view of "normal English" - the other groups tend to show more 'formal' or 'academic English'

Up till about 1920, "in the know of" was quite popular and was used almost as much as "in the know about". In 2008, in British English, "in the know about" was used fifteen times for each use of "in the know of".

However - if you change the search criterion to "English" (which includes books published in India, Africa, ANZO and Asia), there was a HUGE 'boom' in the use of "in the know of" between about 1945 and 1968 - and has died away since then.

So, the fact is this:
"In the know of" is quite uncommon in British English and American English - to the point at which it "sounds wrong" or "sounds foreign" to currently-living speakers of British English and American English on this forum (including thar, Bob Shilling, Bob's wife, mactoria and me).

"In the know of" was used VERY commonly in other versions of English, but this has been dying out for the past fifty years.


Wyrd bið ful aræd - bull!
sureshot
Posted: Thursday, July 5, 2018 6:37:44 AM
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Drag0nspeaker wrote:
To save you digging out any more obscure uses of "in the know of" from American writers who choose to use unusual or archaic forms:


________________

I am afraid, I have to disagree. The preposition "of" and "about" have different uses. So,in my view,the choice of a preposition or even not opting for one, depends on the sentence pattern.

Lastly, the cited example sentences do not have an archaic origin. They are from texts printed in the last few years. I have intentionally mentioned the recent examples, lest someone should label them "archaic"!

The examples from COLLINS DICTIONARY (https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/in-the-know) mentioned in one of the preceding posts are certainly not archaic. They are from newspapers. In my view, all the uses/examples are not captured by the compilers of such information. The sentence examples in subsequent posts are also from recent sources.

My objective is to emphasize that the speaker/writer (apparently a Malaysian) of the original sentence is not wrong in his choice of preposition "of". I do not wish to debate the frequency of use of prepositions "about", "of" or for that matter any other preposition. In my view, it is best left to the choice of the speaker/writer of the sentence.
Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Thursday, July 5, 2018 8:00:36 AM

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There is not a lot to disagree with, really.

The fact is that any British or American usage of "in the know of" is either "unusual" (about 10-15% of usual usage) or is archaic.
As evidenced by the fact that of YOUR twenty-five original examples, only one (from 'The News' published in Pakistan) used "in the know of".
That you managed to dig up five uses of the phrase from the whole history of the New York Times is hardly telling.

In many other dialect-groups (Asian, Indian, Pakistani and Middle-East), "In the know of" is perfectly normal, as shown by the quotes from:
- THE STRAIT TIMES, KUALA LUMPUR
- THE STAR ONLINE, MALAYSIA
- MALAYSIA PRESS

It is fine that the original writer used "in the know of", as their readers would recognise and understand it.

The point made by thar and Bob is simply that a writer in Britain or America would say "If Bank Negara knows of these funds and they had an inkling or some knowledge that there could be some doubts about the source of the funds, I expected them to tell me."

If a British or American writer were using "in the know" with a preposition and object, the preposition would by "about" except in very unusual cases.

"If Bank Negara is in the know about these funds, and they had an inkling or some knowledge that there could be some doubts about the source of the funds, I expected them to tell me."


Wyrd bið ful aræd - bull!
sureshot
Posted: Thursday, July 5, 2018 9:39:04 AM
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Different writers and speakers of English the world over have different styles. One should be flexible to acknowledge the style of other countries and not term it "mixed up". My only objection is to term the sentence by a reputed Malaysian writer as "mixed up". (Refer the first post by thar which says "No,it feels like two things have been mixed up, to me".

My response would have been different, if the posts of various members of the forum had acknowledged that the idiomatic expression as used by the Malaysian as correct but not widely used in their form of English.
Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Thursday, July 5, 2018 9:56:56 AM

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Ah I see!

The truth is that to thar (and to me - and obviously to BobShilling) the sentence, as written DOES sound like a mixture of two common statements.
“If Bank Negara know of these funds . . ." and "If Bank Negara is in the know about these funds . . ."

The question was "Is the part in bold commonly used by native speakers?"
The answer is "No - not by native speakers in Britain or America."
To all the native speakers from America and Britain who have answered this question, it sounds like two phrases have been mixed up.

The answer from a native speaker from India or Malaysia (and probably other parts of Asia) would be "Yes - it's very common in Asia."


Wyrd bið ful aræd - bull!
NKM
Posted: Saturday, July 7, 2018 5:23:01 PM

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sureshot wrote:
Some example sentences with a preposition are:

- But he does count himself in the know about human nature. Times, Sunday Times (2006)
- I pick companies after speaking with people in the know in China and using my own local knowledge. Times, Sunday Times (2012)
-‘Canadian fans have been in the know about this band for years, but it's time for us to learn how to share.’- Oxford Dictionary
- Diya is said to have been in the know of what exactly killed Yar'Adua and the way he was done in, which is known only in certain restricted circles. (The News, Volume 10, Issues 1-16)

══════════════════════════════════════════════

The first and third of those examples use the standard form "in the know about …", about which there is no argument.

The second example uses "in the know" with no preposition at all, followed by the prepositional phrase "in China".

The fourth example is easily decipherable, but "in the know as to …" would better fit the standard use of the idiom.

BobShilling
Posted: Sunday, July 8, 2018 12:42:05 AM
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sureshot wrote:
Different writers and speakers of English the world over have different styles. One should be flexible to acknowledge the style of other countries and not term it "mixed up". My only objection is to term the sentence by a reputed Malaysian writer as "mixed up". (Refer the first post by thar which says "No,it feels like two things have been mixed up, to me".


The words 'to me' are significant there.

sureshot wrote:
My response would have been different, if the posts of various members of the forum had acknowledged that the idiomatic expression as used by the Malaysian as correct but not widely used in their form of English.


mactoria wrote: "A native English speaker (American) would most like say something like "If Bank Negara knew of these funds..." or "If Bank Negara was aware of these funds...""(my emphasis added - Bob)

You wrote: "In my view, the phrase "is in the know of" is apt to convey the desired sense by all speakers of English." (my emphasis added)

Thar wrote: "It may be standard Indian English but it certainly sounds wrong to both British and American English speakers [...]. I can only answer for British English, so sometimes I will say something sounds wrong where it might be fine in Indian English."

You wrote: "The fact that the phrase "in the know" is mentioned in a variety of dictionaries based on American English and British English can lead to one conclusion i.e. the expression has currency in both AE and British English." I responded: "Nobody has suggested that it isn't. All we speakers of BrE and AmE are saying is that 'in the know of' is not used in our varieties."

Thar wrote: "To be 'in the know' is a very common expression in British English. But it is 'in the know of' that sounds wrong to British and American English ears. You can see the dictionary examples are 'in the know' whereas the extract with 'in the know of' is Malaysian. Your endorsement of it suggests it is used in this region's version of English. That is not in dispute."

You wrote: "If my point that "in the know" is indeed a part of British English and American English, then there is little to elucidate. The choice of preposition like "of" and "about" or perhaps none at all depends on the sentence pattern and it is the case in all forms of English."

Drag0nspeaker wrote: ""In the know of" is quite uncommon in British English and American English - to the point at which it "sounds wrong" or "sounds foreign" to currently-living speakers of British English."


So, sureshot, people have acknowledged that 'in the know of' may be acceptable in Malaysian or Indian English, but have made it clear that it is not generally acceptable in modern British and American English. It is your insistence that it is that has prolonged this thread.
NKM
Posted: Sunday, July 8, 2018 6:13:13 PM

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Amen.
A cooperator
Posted: Tuesday, January 1, 2019 3:21:09 PM

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Hello Everyone!
I was googling "know think", and Google returned this thread on the top of the results.
So, I am wondering if "know think" is normal here as well to be said by a native speakers.
If you or someone you know think they are being abused, call the National Domestic Violence Hotline at 1-800-799-7233 (SAFE) or 1-800-787-3224 (TTY) now for anonymous, confidential help, available 24/7.

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thar
Posted: Tuesday, January 1, 2019 4:10:42 PM

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It is not 'know think'.

Look for the main verb:

If you think they are being abused, call the helpline.

If you (or someone you know) think they are being abused, call the helpline.

If you or someone you know think they are being abused, call the helpline.


It is unclear who 'they' are. This seems to be about reporting abuse of someone else.
It is also saying that if someone else tells you about abuse they see going on, you should still call the helpline.


It is very badly written, in my opinion.
Romany
Posted: Tuesday, January 1, 2019 4:20:03 PM
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Coop. I suggest you read the sentence aloud to understand what it means. You are just picking up two random words which happened to be written next to each other and trying to make them into a phrase. Try saying it according to this - it's exactly the same sentence, but with commas where a speaker would pause or would use a different inflection in natural speech

"If you, or somebody you know, think they are being abused....."
palapaguy
Posted: Tuesday, January 1, 2019 11:31:03 PM

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thar wrote:
It is not 'know think'.

... It is very badly written, in my opinion.

IMHO, that's a rather severe judgment.

It was clear enough to me, certainly not "badly written," and I believe most native readers would have no difficulty understanding it. Written English sentences are not usually punctuated for the purpose of aiding non-native speakers in understanding them.

thar
Posted: Wednesday, January 2, 2019 3:50:04 AM

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Yes, native speakers can understand it. But I think it is badly written because it has two different subjects which require different verb endings - which makes the verb unwieldy
if you think
or
if someone you know think
just feels wrong.

Punctuation, or another way of putting it, would remove that dissonance.
The whole idea of calling on behalf of someone you know is a bit odd, as well. They 'they' being abused can't include the someone you know, because you both think that about 'they'. So that means it is someone else's suspicion, and the only way you know is if they tell you about it. That comes under 'I think they are being abused (because someone told me they are being abused'). It is just a very muddled way of expressing a fairly simple idea, in my opinion.
I think they may not mean that anyway.
Romany
Posted: Wednesday, January 2, 2019 9:02:09 AM
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Thar -

I'm a spokesperson for RISE in my spare(!!) time. We have discussed the way speech patterns within the organisation are sometimes not as clear to those who read them as they are to those within the sector.

The "think" bit is something, coincidentally,I brought up. it's used because many women don't actually understand understand what abuse entails until it is far too late and the pattern becomes clear. "He doesn't let you have money of your own? That's because he's a carefull money manager. He doesn't let you go out with friends? That's because he is concerned about your welfare when you are away from him. He shouts at you and calls you dreadful things? He's under a lot of stress. etc. etc.

So many women - for a myriad of reasons like upbringing, religion, naivete etc. - don't understand that they are being denied their human rights - but they do have supressed feelings that perhaps the way they are being treated is not normal. But shame (and the perpeterator) keeps them from seeking help, or talking things over with anyone else.

Often a woman gets concerned about a friend who puts it all down to "Lurve". No organisation will take down names and addresses of the people they think may be in trouble, or contact the police, or contact the abuser - what they do is give strategies and practical advice on the ways the friend can be supported and encouraged to recognise their own worth.

My opinion was that some women might find the "think they are being abused" condescending - that are they too dumb to know abuse when they are going through it.

It's very interesting to see that you, too, have flagged it as possibly confusing.
thar
Posted: Wednesday, January 2, 2019 9:20:49 AM

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Exactly - the 'think ' is important, but the subject and object don't match.

but 'if you think you are being abused,
or that someone you know is being abused...

and then change subject for another idea?
if someone you know thinks they are being abused

(even then, 'think' has some certainty - thinks they may be being abused - I am sure there are better ways of putting that.)

What are they trying to say?
It is a simple concept - is just not a clear statement of English, to me, the way it seems to be written in that example!
Romany
Posted: Wednesday, January 2, 2019 9:53:19 AM
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Indeed. The thing about so many of these "help" orgnisations is that people are recruited for many reasons - none of which include proficiency with the English language. Neither does anyone edit or proof their copy/slogans.

This one is just a tad confusing - some are absolute howlers!!
Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Thursday, January 3, 2019 2:55:44 AM

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I just saw this.
Yes - on A Cooperator's original question (about 'know think') it really IS a matter of experience in separating phrases in a sentence - and a pair of commas or parentheses would have made it a much simpler sentence to understand. Not everyone who would reads (or should read) that sentence would be a well-educated native speaker.

There is definitely something wrong with the formation of the sentence.
To me, it seems like it says that this is a reason to call the helpline:
I call my daughter in Sussex - she mentions to me that she heard that one of her neighbours might think that she may be being abused. So I should call the helpline?

OK - I should tell her to tell the person who told her to call the helpline.

I DO understand that the person being abused may not (for various reasons - fear, misguided love, whatever) call for themselves. I think this would be more true of abused children than abused women - but maybe not.

Wyrd bið ful aræd - bull!
thar
Posted: Thursday, January 3, 2019 4:54:56 AM

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I think the difference is immediately recognising 'someone you know' as a familiar block that belongs together. Then the rest of the sentence can be understood around that.
If you don't immediately see that, it becomes a mess!
Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Thursday, January 10, 2019 10:26:37 PM

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I've tried searching a couple of times for the "BBC Learning English" talk which discusses Björk's spoken English. It seems to have been deleted or archived.

The grammarian 'expert' talks a lot about her use of "chunks of English" - and the fact that 'natural English' is made up of phrases, not words. In normal speech and writing, we use and recognise 'known phrases' - we (native speakers) don't think of words, we think of (as you say) 'familiar blocks which belong together'.

This facility is one which people gain by reading, listening and speaking a lot - and not concentrating on formal lectures, text books, poetry, formal prose etc, but reading and listening to normal conversations.


Wyrd bið ful aræd - bull!
Romany
Posted: Friday, January 11, 2019 3:18:02 PM
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Yes. that's why we get many queries from learners who have incorrectly paired two words together simply because one comes after the other.

Listening to English,reading contemporary articles, and speaking it out loud, are the ways to learn how to speak it through "chunks".

If you hear the phrase "please may I have...?" enough times you learn - in exactly the way all children learn - that this chunk of words is what we say when we want something. From a drink of water to the essays your students wrote. Knowing whether it's active, subjunctive, perfect or any other thing, doesn't hinder our ability to learn the chunk of language needed to make a polite request in English.

But this can only be discovered through listening. Luckily, with an internet connection there's English being spoken all around one.
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