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Trump is Taking Children from Parents Who Are Asylum Seekers Options
Hope123
Posted: Wednesday, June 20, 2018 11:33:26 PM

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https://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/2018/06/21/john-sandweg-former-ice-director-ac360-sot.cnn

CNN's Anderson Cooper speaks to former US Immigration and Customs Enforcement director John Sandweg about the recent executive order enacted by President Trump to stop separating children from their family while crossing the US-Mexico border.

Sandweg says it's all very confusing. He mentions the Flores ruling as Drago said would happen, and he says he's disappointed the 2300 kids will not be reunited with their parents - he thought that was the whole point of all this.

Wish we could talk to the present Customs Enforcement Director to get his take on it but that will never happen.




The past is to be respected/acknowledged, not worshipped. It is in our future we will find our greatness. Pierre Trudeau
Priscilla86
Posted: Thursday, June 21, 2018 12:23:21 AM

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Drag0nspeaker wrote:
Today, sometime about lunch time, the pres. said that he will do something unilaterally (exec order, I imagine) so that children can stay with parents - then get the law sorted out later.



He did sign an executive order. And swiftly his daughter congratulated him on Twitter. I think today I'm going to spit on someone and quickly wipe it off. There, I wiped it off, I'm a saint. Oi! d'oh!

The greatest thing you'll ever learn is just to love and be loved in return.
Hope123
Posted: Thursday, June 21, 2018 12:29:54 AM

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Priscilla! Where have you been? So glad to see here again. Is that a new address or did I miss Lavender before?

The past is to be respected/acknowledged, not worshipped. It is in our future we will find our greatness. Pierre Trudeau
Priscilla86
Posted: Thursday, June 21, 2018 1:14:37 AM

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Hope123 wrote:
Priscilla! Where have you been? So glad to see here again.


Hi there, Hope!

So glad to be back and find that all the discussions are just as eloquent and insightful as they used to be. I've gone into hiding for a while now, just laying low and taking stock as so many things happening in terms of career, health, and personal growth.

Hope123 wrote:
Is that a new address or did I miss Lavender before?


I think I updated it shortly before I went into hiding so you probably missed it Dancing

The greatest thing you'll ever learn is just to love and be loved in return.
mactoria
Posted: Thursday, June 21, 2018 4:23:59 AM
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Don't let it go unnoticed that Trump signed an executive order to 'stop' the US policy of taking kids from parents crossing the border after he, his DHS secretary Neilsen, press secretary Sanders et al said repeatedly for days that 1) the US wasn't taking kids from parents; 2) there was no "policy," it was the law and had to be done; 3) since it was the law, an executive order couldn't reverse it; 4) he wouldn't do an executive order because incarcerated babies/toddlers were good leverage. He caved because of bad PR and scared Republicans, not compassion. This executive order doesn't apply to kids already taken from parents; DHS/HHS people on the ground must wait for the people in DC who directed the current fiasco to give them marching orders; does nothing to fix the non-system we've had in effect for tracking families, so we should expect more kids to be lost for long periods of time, maybe forever. He made it clear he won't authorize a dollar more for more Border Patrol staff to deal with people trying to turn themselves in at ports of entry seeking legal asylum, while authorizing military attorneys (JAGs) to spend the next 6 mons doing border prosecutions (though that's questionably illegal). This despite families reporting they tried but were rebuffed over and over to seek asylum, and finally crossed illegally in order to avoid harm from thugs and gangsters roaming the Mexican-US border.


It's clear my country has done horrible things on purpose to people seeking asylum, and not followed either our laws, the Flores Settlement Agreement, or common decency. What hasn't been talked about much is that Mexico needs to do more to provide safety for refugees crossing through and/or living by their border, including finding a way (and a desire) to reign in MS-13 and other gangs and cartels. Most of current refugees coming on the southern border aren't Mexican citizens, they're from Honduras, Guatemala, and El Salvador, countries that are dangerous and lawless ( migrant Mexicans tend to know how to get into/out of the US without being caught as frequently as other refugees, which explains some of the supposed 11,000,000 undocumented persons in the US). The north/central/south Americas need to take some responsibility for granting at least temporary asylum to refugees who have valid reasons until H/G/ES reform and become safe.
Priscilla86
Posted: Thursday, June 21, 2018 7:06:36 AM

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mactoria wrote:
which explains some of the supposed 11,000,000 undocumented persons in the US).


Wow, I never knew the exact number of undocumented people in the US before. 11 million seems like a BIG number. The entire population of Singapore is only 5.6 million. Where are these 11 million people? They can't all be gang members and rapists, otherwise there will be chaos in the streets.

Knowing the figure now, it seems like the big showdown happening at the borders and entry points to the US is just smoke and mirrors, like a big distraction or an empty gesture. I can't help but thinking something sinister is going on here, like we are being played or something, because how effective would those tactics be at actually curbing all these woes that are supposedly brought in by these people? Surely you can think of something much more intelligent than resorting to crudely breaking families apart? The US is one of the most developed nations in the world, for God's sake.

You don't want them to be criminals yet you traumatize them upon entry. Is that supposed to show them who's the boss? Oppress them into compliance? Because oppressed people are surely not dangerous.



The greatest thing you'll ever learn is just to love and be loved in return.
Oscar D. Grouch
Posted: Thursday, June 21, 2018 7:19:01 AM

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Rachel Maddow breaks down in tears on air while reading about babies detained at US border
http://www.businessinsider.com/rachel-maddow-cries-while-reading-about-babies-detained-at-us-border-2018-6

Trump administration officials have been sending babies and other young children forcibly separated from their parents at the U.S.-Mexico border to at least three "tender age" shelters in South Texas, The Associated Press has learned.

Lawyers and medical providers who have visited the Rio Grande Valley shelters described play rooms of crying preschool-age children in crisis.

...

Decades after the nation's child welfare system ended the use of orphanages over concerns about the lasting trauma to children, the administration is standing up new institutions to hold Central American toddlers that the government separated from their parents.

"The thought that they are going to be putting such little kids in an institutional setting? I mean it is hard for me to even wrap my mind around it," said Kay Bellor, vice president for programs at Lutheran Immigration and Refugee Service, which provides foster care and other child welfare services to migrant children. "Toddlers are being detained."
progpen
Posted: Thursday, June 21, 2018 7:24:44 AM

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Priscilla86 wrote:
Where are these 11 million people? They can't all be gang members and rapists, otherwise there will be chaos in the streets.


According to the NRA and Republicans there is chaos in the streets. Anecdotes = chaos.

Most of the 11 million are in construction, housekeeping, working in the fields, taking care of our children, preparing our food, raising our livestock. They are also paying taxes, going to church and putting their own children through school.

Nolite te bastardes carborundorum
Priscilla86
Posted: Thursday, June 21, 2018 8:09:22 AM

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progpen wrote:


According to the NRA and Republicans there is chaos in the streets. Anecdotes = chaos.


Rather a self-fulfilling prophecy, don't you think?

The greatest thing you'll ever learn is just to love and be loved in return.
Lotje1000
Posted: Thursday, June 21, 2018 8:11:09 AM

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I read today that those children are also given drugs to manage their trauma.
Source.
Listening . . .
Posted: Thursday, June 21, 2018 4:04:13 PM

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Lotje1000 wrote:
I read today that those children are also given drugs to manage their trauma.
Source.


I am hoping beyond hope that this is not true. If it turns out to be the case, I would not be shocked. What more accurate way is there to welcome someone to the country? A country that seeks a “one pill will fix it” mentality. Pharmaceutical drugs that are prescribed for minor symptoms and end up causing much more harm than good. (The original symptom begins to look attractive!) My disgust with the pharmaceutical companies and FDA is for another thread.
I don’t pray. But... I pray to the god of reason and compassion that they are NOT giving the detained kids drugs. Pray Pray
progpen
Posted: Thursday, June 21, 2018 6:00:53 PM

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Listening . . . wrote:
Lotje1000 wrote:
I read today that those children are also given drugs to manage their trauma.
Source.


I am hoping beyond hope that this is not true. If it turns out to be the case, I would not be shocked. What more accurate way is there to welcome someone to the country? A country that seeks a “one pill will fix it” mentality. Pharmaceutical drugs that are prescribed for minor symptoms and end up causing much more harm than good. (The original symptom begins to look attractive!) My disgust with the pharmaceutical companies and FDA is for another thread.
I don’t pray. But... I pray to the god of reason and compassion that they are NOT giving the detained kids drugs. Pray Pray


Listening, I'm right there with you. When I first read it, I thought "well of course that's what they would do because pharmaceuticals fix everything in the US." We've become fixated on having a pill to fix everything.

Nolite te bastardes carborundorum
Hope123
Posted: Friday, June 22, 2018 11:58:40 AM

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Trtqorld media sources where this link is from are rated as "moderately to strongly biased toward conservative causes".

https://www.trtworld.com/magazine/honduras-a-political-crisis-rooted-in-us-meddling-14265

I did a bit of research on why these migrants from Honduras, Guatemala, and El Salvador are seeking asylum in the US and Canada. This piece by a reporter in Honduras has no byline because his safety would be in danger - and it is very eye opening if one has not been following events there. It was written in January 2018 before this surge problem at the border.

“Because all this really couldn’t be happening without the help of the United States.”

This refers to the violent conditions, human rights violations, and corruption in their own country that Hondurans are fleeing from. But they are fleeing from the results of US policies as well.

The US has been meddling in Honduras forever, protecting their banana plants at first and then other interests. Obama at first declared the 2009 overthrow of a democratic leaning leader as a coup but "slick lobbying and PR campaign by the Republican Party and the Honduran oligarchy gathered steam". And so the US ended up supporting that coup and that has led to the conditions today as there was evidence of foul play in the 2017 election by the right wing National Party that claimed victory.

The number of firearms exported to Honduras from the US has grown in recent years. Trump supports the Honduran Government as an ally and indeed it was one of only seven countries to support him on the embassy move to Israel. (Except now with the Immigration problem he wants to cut their aid.)

"And at a time of when the Trump administration finds itself isolated, Hernandez provides much-needed diplomatic support...President Trump, usually so raucous, has made no public comment about the Honduran political crisis."

Yet Trump calls these people animals and takes their children, while supporting the causes of why they come. Aid cuts would make conditions worse. At the same time they blame Latino immigrants for the lives and jobs they've lost. Create the refugees, then promise to keep them out of your country. Two steps to election success.

Length does not permit me to go into detail about Guatemala where the US meddling goes back as far as 1954 and how it was behind a gory civil war in the eighties in El Salvador. Anyone interested can verify the history.

Note that in 2014 when Obama had to deal with 10,000 unaccompanied minors seeking asylum, he upped the aid to Honduras, El Salvador, and Guatemala if they made improvements in human rights, law enforcement, and justice.

Trump changed his mind about Honduras being a "friend" and says he would like to cut aid to Honduras, Guatemala, and El Salvador and it looks as if Congress is going to at least cut it in half. I can't find accurate info about the status of the aid.

Related Digression - As Venezuelans went to the polls in 2018 the U.S. was working to disrupt the re-election of Nicolas Maduro and rollback left-wing governments in the region... Yet it gets upset when Russia interferes in theirs.

When the socialist government still won in Venezuela, U.S. President Donald Trump's administration is threatening moves against Venezuela's already reeling oil sector.


Trump ran on a policy of non interference internationally.


The past is to be respected/acknowledged, not worshipped. It is in our future we will find our greatness. Pierre Trudeau
Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Friday, June 22, 2018 3:11:53 PM

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Lotje1000 wrote:
I read today that those children are also given drugs to manage their trauma.
Source.

Quote:
Some youths at Shiloh reported being given up to nine different pills in the morning and six in the evening and said they were told they would remain detained if they refused drugs, the lawsuit said.

Some said they had been held down and given injections when they refused to take medication, the lawsuit said.

One mother said neither she nor any other family member had been consulted about medication given to her daughter, even though Shiloh had their contact details. Another mother said her daughter received such powerful anti-anxiety medications she collapsed several times, according to the filing.

Yes - that seems to be the 'standard action' these days.


Wyrd bið ful aræd - bull!
FounDit
Posted: Friday, June 22, 2018 8:21:25 PM

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It does seem certain that when you break the law, bad things usually happen. Solution = Don't break the law.

Women are forever telling us that "No means No". So when the question is, "Can we enter your country illegally?", the answer is, "No"; or is this a case where "No", means "Yes, it's okay to violate us"?


We should look to the past to learn from it, not destroy our future because of it — FounDit
Hope123
Posted: Friday, June 22, 2018 11:42:22 PM

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No still means no. But the punishment should fit the crime. In this case a misdemeanour.

The past is to be respected/acknowledged, not worshipped. It is in our future we will find our greatness. Pierre Trudeau
progpen
Posted: Saturday, June 23, 2018 7:56:58 AM

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Trying to apply for asylum in the US is "not" the same thing as raping the country.

Nolite te bastardes carborundorum
FounDit
Posted: Saturday, June 23, 2018 10:05:09 AM

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progpen wrote:
Trying to apply for asylum in the US is "not" the same thing as raping the country.



But entering the country without permission is exactly the same - legally. It is penetration without permission. No person is permitted to penetrate another without permission; it is illegal. Nor are they allowed to penetrate one's home or auto; that also is illegal. Penetrating the country without permission is also illegal.

Progressive Liberals want to pretend the real crime happens after the penetration, but being detained and sent back is not the crime. Showing up at the border and penetrating the country without permission is the crime. Only a fool or someone who is willfully blind (or stupid) can fail to see that fact.

So which side do you favor? The one that commits the crime or the one that supports the law?


We should look to the past to learn from it, not destroy our future because of it — FounDit
progpen
Posted: Saturday, June 23, 2018 10:37:20 AM

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FounDit wrote:
But entering the country without permission is exactly the same - legally.


No it is not the same thing, legally, morally, intellectually or any other way. Entering the country without permission is a misdemeanor (legally). Rape is a class B felony (legally).

Nolite te bastardes carborundorum
progpen
Posted: Saturday, June 23, 2018 10:45:20 AM

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FounDit wrote:
Only a fool or someone who is willfully blind (or stupid) can fail to see that fact.


Right back atcha.

Nolite te bastardes carborundorum
BobShilling
Posted: Saturday, June 23, 2018 11:01:02 AM
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FounDit wrote:
But entering the country without permission is exactly the same - legally. It is penetration without permission. No person is permitted to penetrate another without permission; it is illegal. Nor are they allowed to penetrate one's home or auto; that also is illegal. Penetrating the country without permission is also illegal.


You seem to be suggesting that attempting to enter a country without proper authorisation is as serious a crime as rape. An interesting way of looking at things.

Quote:
Progressive Liberals want to pretend the real crime happens after the penetration, but being detained and sent back is not the crime. Showing up at the border and [i]penetrating the country without permission is the crime.


I don't think you will find many people, liberal or otherwise, who would deny that attempting to enter the country without authorisation is illegal. What people are protesting about is the inhumane and possibly illegal separation of young children from their mothers. Those protesting include not only your usual suspects, progressive liberals, but also an increasing number of Republicans.

Quote:
Only a fool or someone who is willfully blind (or stupid) can fail to see that fact.


Hmmm.


Hope123
Posted: Saturday, June 23, 2018 5:18:52 PM

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FD, Are you prepared to also charge the guards at ports of entry who broke the law by sending the seekers away? Maybe take their kids away.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/the_americas/us-border-officials-are-illegally-turning-away-asylum-seekers-critics-say/2017/01/16/f7f5c54a-c6d0-11e6-acda-59924caa2450_story.html?utm_term=.465141276e39

Dated January 2017. This has been going on for some time.

It seems to me you should have figured out by now FD, after many threads, that we all agree with you that laws should be followed. But you keep asking the same question, just in different words.

Arguing about the fact that they shouldn't have come because they are breaking the law denies the reality that they are there. And will continue to come for many reasons. (see my above post)

American law says asylum seekers at ports of entry cannot be turned away, yet that is what guards did! And so the seekers crossed illegally but turned themselves in to the guards asking for asylum. If the government had been prepared they would have anticpated the problem and put in measures to prevent this happening. They had plenty of time. They knew about the caravan long before it got to the border. It is what the US does to solve the problem that is the issue. The US has a problem as it sticks its head in the sand and refuses to fix it.

No country really wants refugees and asylum seekers crossing illegally but many countries have figured it out while still acting humanely, with empathy, and respecting human rights. Since the US no longer respects human rights, I guess your uncompromising hardliner stance might be understandable.

The past is to be respected/acknowledged, not worshipped. It is in our future we will find our greatness. Pierre Trudeau
philips daughter
Posted: Saturday, June 23, 2018 11:18:02 PM

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Hope, you are right when you pointed out this is not a new attitude for Trumpets. Immigration was one of the issues President Obama could never get Republicans in the House to vote on. If they had voted this wouldn’t be happening. They would have lost this debate long ago and rather they refuse to allow the government to function. They are willing to destroy us all. I won’t judge why but mentally ill does begin to look likely.
Lotje1000
Posted: Sunday, June 24, 2018 2:17:52 AM

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FounDit wrote:
Only a fool or someone who is willfully blind (or stupid) can fail to see that fact.


FounDit wrote:
The difference is, I don't get angry and call you names, or impugn your character by calling you derogatory names as so many on the Progressive Left do with us.
FounDit
Posted: Sunday, June 24, 2018 9:53:25 AM

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Lotje1000 wrote:
FounDit wrote:
Only a fool or someone who is willfully blind (or stupid) can fail to see that fact.


FounDit wrote:
The difference is, I don't get angry and call you names, or impugn your character by calling you derogatory names as so many on the Progressive Left do with us.


To quote myself:
"Showing up at the border and penetrating the country without permission is the crime." Only a fool or someone who is willfully blind (or stupid) can fail to see that fact.

And that's exactly what it is: a fact. It isn't name-calling to state a fact, though I can understand how you might fail to see that. Here's something to think about (Progressive Liberals - you can sit this one out. It will go over your heads):

Voluntarily sticking a finger into a light socket and receiving a shock, a stupid person would blame the electrical company.

Voluntarily crossing the border of another country to illegally enter, and being detained by law enforcement, a stupid person would blame the President and the law enforcement officers.

I’m not sure, exactly, when we began raising the crops of stupid people we currently see on our TV’s complaining of exactly that. In my opinion, I blame the 1960’s. Too many people took too many drugs and damaged their brains. They then had too many brain-damaged children who grew up to become Progressive Liberals.

The good news is that they are revealing themselves daily, so we should begin the process of removing them from their positions of power and ignoring their brain-damage bleating as soon as possible. I’ve already begun. Thinking people — feel free to join me. It’s going to be a long, slow slog, but it’ll be worth it in the end, I’m sure...Dancing



We should look to the past to learn from it, not destroy our future because of it — FounDit
progpen
Posted: Sunday, June 24, 2018 1:32:52 PM

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Refreshingly consistent.

Nolite te bastardes carborundorum
BobShilling
Posted: Sunday, June 24, 2018 2:21:38 PM
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progpen wrote:
Refreshingly consistent.


Applause
BobShilling
Posted: Sunday, June 24, 2018 2:26:52 PM
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FounDit wrote:
Voluntarily crossing the border of another country to illegally enter, and being detained by law enforcement, a stupid person would blame the President and the law enforcement officers.


As far as I can see, nobody has 'blamed' the President or anybody else for detaining people who have entered the country illegally. What some of us have done is point out the inhumanity of separating young children from their parents. Are we stupid to see different issues here? If so, I am proud to be stupid.
Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Sunday, June 24, 2018 6:04:16 PM

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FounDit wrote:
The difference is, I don't get angry and call you names, or impugn your character by calling you derogatory names as so many on the Progressive Left do with us.

FounDit wrote:
Too many people took too many drugs and damaged their brains. They then had too many brain-damaged children who grew up to become Progressive Liberals.

That second quote looks very much like name-calling and impugning characters, to me . . .

Wyrd bið ful aræd - bull!
Hope123
Posted: Sunday, June 24, 2018 6:52:58 PM

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Add this to the list, too Drago. FounDit wrote: Progressive Liberals - you can sit this one out. It will go over your heads): LOL. That means everybody but you. You yourself are absolutely sure you are right so there's no need to even post it. (At age 70, I guess you yourself grew up in the sixties.)

And we don't need to read it - it will just state the same old phrases from the Trump playbook over and over again. Including the same tendency to tunnel vision and the handling of any constructive criticism with slights and slurs on anyone who disagrees.

When one resorts to ad hominem, everything else said is negated too.

::

I dunno. What's a good adjective to describe people who are used to having all the advantages of living in a democracy but reward a president who does all the things he's doing - creating only one state media favorable to him alone, lies daily, rewards the rich and tells the poor he's helping them, sucks up to dictators who reward him and his family, says being president for life is something to aspire to, supports extremists (even helps some with questionable character to be elected), opts out of human rights, and is now talking about removing due process of courts and judges for all immigrants?

People who don't see the slippery slope slide into autocracy and dictatorship/communism? People who don't ask themselves, "Who is next on the list to lose their due process and rights?"




The past is to be respected/acknowledged, not worshipped. It is in our future we will find our greatness. Pierre Trudeau
Hope123
Posted: Sunday, June 24, 2018 7:13:17 PM

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Bob, I did partly blame the officers who broke the law by illegally sending asylum seekers away from ports of entry. Edited - on further thought, I didn't blame them. I said they broke the law too and therefore should be punished as well. The seekers then are responsible for their own decisions.

Apparently justice (harsh at that for a misdemeanour) is only for law breaking immigrants, not for any American, especially those in authority, like border guards or police.

One Democratic president gets impeached by Republicans for one lie. Another lies daily, everybody knows, but nothing happens. The Democrats need to be more tenacious with their investigations, the same as the Republicans have always done. They are still investigating Hillary's emails. :)

(This thread is getting boring, rehashing facts.)


The past is to be respected/acknowledged, not worshipped. It is in our future we will find our greatness. Pierre Trudeau
Hope123
Posted: Sunday, June 24, 2018 7:25:56 PM

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Latest news:

Separated parents get option: voluntarily deport to get to get their kids back.

So now they are holding them for ransom. Nice.






The past is to be respected/acknowledged, not worshipped. It is in our future we will find our greatness. Pierre Trudeau
FounDit
Posted: Monday, June 25, 2018 11:42:55 AM

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Drag0nspeaker wrote:
FounDit wrote:
The difference is, I don't get angry and call you names, or impugn your character by calling you derogatory names as so many on the Progressive Left do with us.

FounDit wrote:
Too many people took too many drugs and damaged their brains. They then had too many brain-damaged children who grew up to become Progressive Liberals.

That second quote looks very much like name-calling and impugning characters, to me . . .


Noted, and absolutely correct. With the President being compared to Hitler and the holding facilities being compared to Nazi concentration camps, I've now decided that the Progressive Liberals aren't the only ones who can have fun with words. After all, I should be allowed to have some fun, too, right? Fair is fair...Applause Applause


We should look to the past to learn from it, not destroy our future because of it — FounDit
Hope123
Posted: Monday, June 25, 2018 1:33:35 PM

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Neurons: 48,155
Location: Burlington, Ontario, Canada
FD, well done. Seriously, congratulations on your admission that you do indulge in ad hominem, calling it fun.

But - Nobody here on this thread called Trump Hitler or a Nazi. So how do you give yourself permission for ad hominem attacks on us? Even if they had, not responding in kind takes self discipline.

You may not realize it but you are and have been all along displacing your anger - blaming us on the forum because some other "progressive people" and maybe even those not so progressive (you have no way of knowing how to classify strangers) are attacking your president and in this case comparing him to Hitler. We are individuals - not some mythical typical leftist monster you see in your head.

That's like being mad at your boss at work and coming home and taking it out on your wife.

Also applicable here is the blame game: a blame game is where someone is always blaming someone else i.e. liberals, leftists, progressives, posters on this forum, immigrants...for a "state of affairs thought to be undesirable" and never accepting responsibility for their own words, or the president's words and actions, or the words of his followers, or of his foreign policies.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/what-would-aristotle-do/201207/stop-playing-the-blame-game

My country's representative responded to Trump's untrue very public ad hominem attacks against my Prime Minister and country by saying, "My country does not conduct its diplomacy through ad hominem attacks."


The past is to be respected/acknowledged, not worshipped. It is in our future we will find our greatness. Pierre Trudeau
progpen
Posted: Monday, June 25, 2018 3:16:28 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 10/2/2015
Posts: 1,870
Neurons: 311,122
Location: Haddington, Scotland, United Kingdom
FounDit wrote:
With the President being compared to Hitler and the holding facilities being compared to Nazi concentration camps, I've now decided that the Progressive Liberals aren't the only ones who can have fun with words. After all, I should be allowed to have some fun, too, right? Fair is fair


Between 2009 and 2017 the President was called every racial slur that exists in the English language. He was portrayed as a monkey and as Hitler. He was disparaged for being too tough on immigrants (by Republicans). He also had the most death threats against him of any president.

What you have unilaterally decided about "progressive liberals" doesn't matter in the slightest. But it is interesting to watch.



Nolite te bastardes carborundorum
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