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US trade war with China has backfired already in solar panels Options
progpen
Posted: Saturday, June 9, 2018 8:36:40 AM

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https://www.renewableenergyworld.com/articles/2018/06/chinas-solar-cutback-is-wiping-out-trump-bump.html

"President Donald Trump said imposing solar tariffs would help domestic companies. But China’s surprise decision to slash installations is negating those gains, and shares of U.S. manufacturers are plunging."

"First Solar Inc. has lost almost a quarter of its market value in the past week."

"The industrywide slide shows that trade barriers designed to protect specific companies or industries can be overpowered by the global forces that drive the markets."

The decision by the current administration to raise tariffs was widely seen within the US as a bad move that would harm US markets. The idea was that there would be retaliatory tariffs on products the US sells, which will still happen, but in this case we see the damage done to the specific industry the increased tariffs were supposed to protect. The current administration will certainly not evaluate this new information and change policy to reflect this new information. Instead, it will double down on this failed policy and increase the damage exponentially. That is because the tariffs are not seen as being market tools, but as political weapons.

Nolite te bastardes carborundorum
Hope123
Posted: Saturday, June 9, 2018 9:35:31 PM

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The real reason jobs left America (Canada too):

https://www.thestar.com/opinion/contributors/2018/06/08/the-real-reason-jobs-left-america.html

This author says it is a warning to which we are not paying enough attention.

::

Proggy, going backwards is self defeating as the China solar panels tariffs show. Too bad China is cutting back and not finding another market. I think China did start buying from another country another product they usually buy from the US - wish I could remember details.

Trade wars often have unforeseen consequences.

After the despicable way Trump just treated the G7 conference and his nasty untrue tweets about Canada that he made afterwards, I hope his supporters are the only ones who lose out in their paychecks. His base will love it - they don't like trade agreements.

Farmers in the US are already hurting and expecting worse.

Glad he left early as nobody wanted him in our country. He has no manners. Doesn't even know not to walk in and interrupt a speech. The height of arrogance to stroll in late causing cameras and secret service disruption. Of course the topic he was late for was empowering women. We all know what he thinks women are good for.

He got his knickers in a knot because the G7 nixed his idea of asking Russia back again when they have not changed the reasons why they were disinvited before. Of course he wanted Russia.

A commentator said that Putin makes all government business go through him and he gets a cut. He said it is what Trump admires and aspires to. I don't know how true that all is, but what positives would Russia add to the conference?

G7 may even become the G6.

Bring on the trade war!

(Proggy, I am so ticked with Trump peddling untruths about trade deficits and with his treatment of his no-longer friends. Thanks for listening to my rant.)

The greatest pleasure in life is doing what people say you cannot do. Anon
Hope123
Posted: Saturday, June 9, 2018 9:43:58 PM

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The greatest pleasure in life is doing what people say you cannot do. Anon
Hope123
Posted: Saturday, June 9, 2018 10:51:52 PM

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I shall put this in the proper thread but wanted to add it here as an addendum about the G7. Hope you don't mind my broadening the topic to trade wars in general Proggy. Politics kind of goes with it.


The Canadian government announced at the G7 summit in Quebec that it has raised more than $3.8 billion in an effort with other countries to send the world's poorest girls to school. Good for the G6.

Trump's base will be glad to know that the US contributed a big fat zero. (Guess they can't afford it.)




The greatest pleasure in life is doing what people say you cannot do. Anon
progpen
Posted: Saturday, June 9, 2018 11:51:58 PM

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Hope, I think the G7 summit and trade in general will fit nicely in either business or politics or both. You are certainly not alone in being ticked about the behavior of the current occupant of the White House (but you are so very much more diplomatic than I am). The US used to be respected (good) and feared (not good), but now it is feared and ridiculed. The current occupant of the White House will be remembered on par with Nero, Caligula and Edward II.

When it comes to the G7 Summit and the upcoming trade wars, I have to force myself to see the bright side. The rest of the world is picking up the pieces as the US trips, stumbles, falls to its knees and crawls out of the world leader spotlight.

Nolite te bastardes carborundorum
progpen
Posted: Sunday, June 10, 2018 12:00:48 AM

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The current administration has shown a breathtaking inability to deal with complex issues and trade is one of those issues. Global trade has become a spider's web of links. Plucking one strand can send shivers across the web. Breaking a strand can have hidden and unexpected effects elsewhere in the web as stress increases in other areas to take up the slack. The actions of the current administration are akin to randomly breaking multiple strands and fully expecting a simple result.

The injection of narcissism, malice and ignorance into this large section of the trade web has created damage that will take years to fully realize and quantify.

Nolite te bastardes carborundorum
Hope123
Posted: Sunday, June 10, 2018 5:25:54 PM

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Why Trump is obsessed with Canada's trade is unknown. Canada is the biggest buyer in the world of US products. There is no deficit. Trump even admitted he just threw the opposite out at Trudeau when he didn't know the figures. His advisor said this morning he attacked Trudeau because he made Trump look weak right before his meeting with Un.

There may be imbalances with China or Mexico but to attack Canada calling us a security risk is ludicrous. Trudeau said nothing new after the convention than he's been saying ever since the tariffs were levied, yet Trump says Trudeau's speech was a betrayal and Trudeau is weak and dishonest. Trump was describing himself.

I think Trump is jelaous because Trudeau is young, good-looking, has hair, and is popular. :) Actually there may be some truth to that.

After attacking softwood, Al, and steel, now he is after the auto industry.

All the adults seem to have left this administration already and the bully has free reign.

http://www.theoutlook.ca/trump-s-tirade-sparks-calls-for-calm-promises-of-support-for-trudeau-1.23331258

"European diplomats say the rest of the G7 will carry on despite Trump's attacks against Trudeau and his decision to pull out of the final communique.


"Aren't we all getting used to it?" posited one diplomat on the condition of anonymity. "The dog barks, the caravan moves on."


The greatest pleasure in life is doing what people say you cannot do. Anon
progpen
Posted: Sunday, June 10, 2018 5:50:56 PM

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Hope123 wrote:
Trudeau said nothing new after the convention than he's been saying ever since the tariffs were levied, yet Trump says Trudeau's speech was a betrayal and Trudeau is weak and dishonest. Trump was describing himself.
...
"Aren't we all getting used to it?" posited one diplomat on the condition of anonymity. "The dog barks, the caravan moves on."


I have full confidence that the G6 is more than ready to move on without their 7th. I think the world expects and deserves a G6.

Nolite te bastardes carborundorum
progpen
Posted: Monday, June 11, 2018 8:51:00 AM

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Hope123 wrote:
Why Trump is obsessed with Canada's trade is unknown.


This is personal to the current occupant of the White House. He has perceived a personal insult from Trudeau and is "making him pay".

Nolite te bastardes carborundorum
Hope123
Posted: Monday, June 11, 2018 10:35:59 AM

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progpen wrote:
Hope123 wrote:
Why Trump is obsessed with Canada's trade is unknown.


This is personal to the current occupant of the White House. He has perceived a personal insult from Trudeau and is "making him pay".


Standing up to Trump is a personal insult to him! Trudeau was nice to him as a host and after the G7 meeting Trudeau repeated the exact same words he has said publicly and to Trump many times before. There was nothing new. Trump was either not paying attention or there is malice. It is always one or the other with Trump and many of his supporters.

I think Kudlow hit the nail on the head when he said Trump felt Trudeau made him look weak in front of Kim Un.

It is clear that making nice with the bully only invites more abuse. And abuse from Trump,aides now too. A level of public vitriol not seen in Canada-US relations in over 50 years.

Trudeau declined to respond directly and on Twitter said that what truly matters is the accomplishments of the G7. Smart man.

When North Korea sees how he treats his friends and allies they should be very skeptical about taking Trump's word for anything - it is not worth even a Canadian penny - which no longer has tender.


PS - an economic analyst says that if Trump were to resign citing understandable exhaustion that 2/3 of the economic uncertainty on the planet would disappear with him.


The greatest pleasure in life is doing what people say you cannot do. Anon
progpen
Posted: Monday, June 11, 2018 10:40:51 AM

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No matter how you slice it, the fact that the current occupant is making national trade and financial decisions based on his own personal insecurities does not bode well for the future of the US.

Nolite te bastardes carborundorum
Hope123
Posted: Monday, June 11, 2018 10:53:55 AM

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progpen wrote:
No matter how you slice it, the fact that the current occupant is making national trade and financial decisions based on his own personal insecurities does not bode well for the future of the US.


Strangely enough I edited my last post about world economic uncertainty while you were posting. Great minds etc.

Not only his insecurities but also his and his family's personal businesses.

It has been suggested that Canada find something like China did that Ivanka wants and give it to her.

The US may have issues with China yet he makes nice with China and attacks Canada. He may even have issues with Mexico re jobs and NAFTA - Canada does too. But Canada did not take US jobs. In fact we lost several Ontario industries and manufacturing jobs as well.

Trade between advanced economies and developing countries does have balance problems and that is why the chapter to give investors the right to challenge and override domestic laws was added.

The greatest pleasure in life is doing what people say you cannot do. Anon
progpen
Posted: Friday, June 15, 2018 1:25:47 PM

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Hope123 wrote:
The US may have issues with China yet he makes nice with China and attacks Canada.


I can say that this behavior is quite easy to understand. Weak leaders and bullies pick on those they perceive as being weaker than themselves. The current occupant of the White House sees Canada and Mexico as being easy prey and thus feels obligated to be belligerent and smug.

Edit: This, of course, has nothing whatsoever to do with the reality of the situation and when it all blows up in his face he will have a long line of scapegoats to blame his failure on.

Nolite te bastardes carborundorum
Hope123
Posted: Friday, June 15, 2018 4:05:30 PM

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This arrogant man expects he can hit any country with tariffs and they will just sit back and take the blow. I have no idea about the trade balance with China. I know many products in Canada and when I shopped in FL two+ years ago were made in China. Or somewhere in Asia. So he may have a point, I don't know.

But China just did hit back when he issued $50 Billion in duties. That is billions. It's not a typo.

From Yahoo News - China Friday swiftly retaliated by imposing "equal" tariffs on US products following a decision by Donald Trump to slap duties on $50 billion of Chinese products."We will immediately launch tax measures of equal scale and equal strength," the commerce ministry said in a statement on its website which also called on other countries to "take collective action" against this "outdated and backwards behaviour".China would also cancel agreements it had reached with the US during previous discussions over the penalties, it said. They are right - the rest of the world has to band tigether.

I have said elsewhere that to have a trade deficit might just mean that that country has a bigger economy.

Also most people won't admit it, but it is the consumer who caused jobs to go off shore - automation killed many jobs in Canada and the US. But the reason jobs were also sent to Mexico or Asia is that Canadians (and Americans) want to buy manufactured goods at prices that can't be supported by the wages we want and need to be paid to maintain a standard of living to which we have come to expect is our right.

Chrystia Freeland made a great speech in the US on Wednesday, but I doubt the US listened. (other thread in K & C) She gave some history since the world wars, but did not talk about negatives of the IMF forcing policies on developing countries or US imperialism. She talked about how the US and allies created international institutions and rules to increase trade and global capitalism. Eventually China and Russia joined in.

Basically she told Trump et al (without mentioning his name) that just because you are a large economy and think you'll win going "mano a mano" just remember that no country's preeminence is eternal. I imagine he'll tweet attacking her if it is brought to his attention.

She talked about the US maybe being tempted to give up on a "rules-based international order but...Now is the time to plant our flag on the rule of law so that the rising powers are induced to play by these rules too."

Edited - I just saw your responses on the thread I mentioned and I see you read both speeches. I hope a few others did too even if they didn't respond. Both speakers really showed perspicacity as to the direction of the world today as compared to 50-100 years ago.

PS - Doesn't the US owe a lot of money to China? How does that play into trade wars?



The greatest pleasure in life is doing what people say you cannot do. Anon
Hope123
Posted: Friday, June 15, 2018 4:28:55 PM

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Proggy, this was in the TO Star this morning about Freeland's speech: US should fight for the rule-based order they worked hard to create, not trash it.

This a quote from the editorial (not a transcript of Freeland's speech) The truth is that the U.S. largely dictated the rules of the system when it dominated what used to be called the “free world.” But other countries — notably China — have become powerful and Washington no longer gets its own way without question.

The temptation is to try and shove others around, to unleash a bully like Donald Trump to attack friend and foe alike. Freeland warned this is a dead end:

“You may feel today that your size allows you to go mano-a-mano with your traditional adversaries and be guaranteed to win. But if history tells us one thing, it is that no one nation’s preeminence is eternal...

“As the West’s relative might inevitably declines, now is the time when, more than ever, we must set aside the idea that might is right. Now is the time to plant our flag on the rule of law — so that the rising powers are induced to play by these rules, too.”

These are wise words. The alternative is an international free-for-all in which everyone risks coming out poorer and the chance of open conflict is dramatically greater.

Trump may be a lost cause
. But it’s important to remind Americans that they have chosen a better path in the past, and can do so again in the future.


https://www.thestar.com/opinion/editorials/2018/06/14/americans-should-fight-for-rules-based-order-not-trash-it.html

:::

Basically she said that America's days of global hegemony are numbered, noting particularly China's rise, and the US would be wise to keep the allies she has. (In other words, don't screw your friends. You might need them sometime.)

The greatest pleasure in life is doing what people say you cannot do. Anon
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