The Free Dictionary  
mailing list For webmasters
Welcome Guest Forum Search | Active Topics | Members

use of a few words (out of our control/substitute) Options
EnglishFanatic92
Posted: Sunday, May 13, 2018 9:14:24 AM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 6/14/2016
Posts: 103
Neurons: 643
Hello all!


- There may be situations that are out of our control, yet we can often influence the outcome. - Here a teacher (a native speaker- US) suggested that "BEYOND our countrol" is better. Is it really that? Is it possible to explain the difference, if there is any?

- The soldier´s injury is a trivial one. Yet, a short-term substitute will be necessary. Is it OK to use "substitute" in this context? I was told that "replacement" is way better.


Looking forward to your replies :-)

Thank you!
TMe
Posted: Sunday, May 13, 2018 10:18:53 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 1/12/2017
Posts: 763
Neurons: 4,843
"Beyond our control" is definitely better.

Substitute or replacement; not much difference here. IMO

I am a layman.
FounDit
Posted: Sunday, May 13, 2018 10:35:44 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 9/19/2011
Posts: 9,284
Neurons: 49,559
EnglishFanatic92 wrote:
Hello all!


- There may be situations that are out of our control, yet we can often influence the outcome. - Here a teacher (a native speaker- US) suggested that "BEYOND our countrol" is better. Is it really that? Is it possible to explain the difference, if there is any?
I don't see any difference. "out of our control" simply says that something is out(side) our control. Beyond our control says the same thing. If it is beyond, it is outside our limit. That said, using "beyond" has a slightly more formal sound to it, so may be preferred by folks such as teachers.

- The soldier´s injury is a trivial one. Yet, a short-term substitute will be necessary. Is it OK to use "substitute" in this context? I was told that "replacement" is way better.
Generally, something new replaces something old, and something new is a substitute for something old. In the case of a soldier, I think replacement fits better. You would be putting a new person in place of the original person. In the military, new soldiers sent to an area are referred to as "replacements".


Looking forward to your replies :-)

Thank you!


We should look to the past to learn from it, not destroy our future because of it — FounDit
TMe
Posted: Sunday, May 13, 2018 11:44:07 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 1/12/2017
Posts: 763
Neurons: 4,843
I agree with FounDit.

I am a layman.
EnglishFanatic92
Posted: Sunday, May 13, 2018 12:37:50 PM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 6/14/2016
Posts: 103
Neurons: 643
FounDit wrote:
EnglishFanatic92 wrote:
Generally, something new replaces something old, and something new is a substitute for something old. In the case of a soldier, I think replacement fits better. You would be putting a new person in place of the original person. In the military, new soldiers sent to an area are referred to as "replacements".


Looking forward to your replies :-)

Thank you!



I can imagine "substitute" being used in football or even for a substituting teacher at school etc. So it is better use "replacement" only because it is the way they say it in the military?

FounDit
Posted: Sunday, May 13, 2018 3:57:58 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 9/19/2011
Posts: 9,284
Neurons: 49,559
EnglishFanatic92 wrote:
FounDit wrote:
EnglishFanatic92 wrote:
Generally, something new replaces something old, and something new is a substitute for something old. In the case of a soldier, I think replacement fits better. You would be putting a new person in place of the original person. In the military, new soldiers sent to an area are referred to as "replacements".


Looking forward to your replies :-)

Thank you!



I can imagine "substitute" being used in football or even for a substituting teacher at school etc. So it is better use "replacement" only because it is the way they say it in the military?


Not just because it's done in the military. When you are speaking of persons, the word used will often depend on the job qualifications. One football player is who trains for a position can be replaced by another because they are equally trained. One soldier trained for a job can be replaced by another of equal training. But a teacher can't be replaced by a person off the street because the substitute isn't equally trained.

Though you might hear of a football player being substituted for another player, replaced would be the more correct term. However, we don't always use the proper terms when speaking.


We should look to the past to learn from it, not destroy our future because of it — FounDit
Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Sunday, May 13, 2018 4:24:28 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 9/12/2011
Posts: 29,715
Neurons: 172,120
Location: Livingston, Scotland, United Kingdom
I'd never really looked at it before.
"Sub" or "substitute" is used in sports.
However, MANY usages of "substitute" have the implication of "second-best".
The substitute is used only when the real, top-of-the-range item is unavailable.

A replacement seems more equal.

The recipe replaced butter with margarine, to make the cake lighter. (Margarine is equal, or even advantageous)
They substituted the butter with margarine as they couldn't afford real butter. (Margarine is inferior)

If the soldiers were basically equal/equivalent, then 'replaced' would be more exact.

**************
I don't see any difference between 'beyond' and 'out of' in this case.
When you are speaking of a boundary or limit, they are equivalent.



Wyrd bið ful aræd - bull!
NKM
Posted: Sunday, May 13, 2018 6:15:09 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 2/14/2015
Posts: 4,770
Neurons: 252,778
Location: Corinth, New York, United States
Though it may seem uncharacteristic of me, I find I can't agree entirely and unconditionally with any of the preceding responses.

While "out of our control" is logically the same as "beyond our control", to me it connotes a more serious situation — i.e., "out of control".



DragO wrote:
They substituted the butter with margarine as they couldn't afford real butter. (Margarine is inferior)

I don't like "substituted … with"; it always feels backward to me. I'd much prefer "substituted margarine for the butter".

Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Sunday, May 13, 2018 8:17:45 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 9/12/2011
Posts: 29,715
Neurons: 172,120
Location: Livingston, Scotland, United Kingdom
Yes - I used "substituted _A__ with _B__" only to match the other sentence.
It's "correct", I think, but "substituted _B__ for _A__" is more natural to the way I speak too.

Another phrase I have seen, only in the last ten years or so, though it is an OLD phrasing (which had been relegated to legal use only, for decades), is "The situation is outwith our control".

It is unfortunate that "within" and "without" (in their normal senses) are not really opposites - they are hardly even connected in meaning.
The opposite of "without" is "with".
The opposite of "within" is "outwith" or "outside".

I think that these may sound less 'catastrophic' than "out of control":
There may be situations which are outside of our control, yet we can often influence the outcome.
There may be situations which are outwith our control, yet we can often influence the outcome.
There may be situations which are outside our zone of control, yet we can often influence the outcome.


Wyrd bið ful aræd - bull!
Users browsing this topic
Guest


Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.

Main Forum RSS : RSS
Forum Terms and Guidelines | Privacy policy | Copyright © 2008-2018 Farlex, Inc. All rights reserved.