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Problem of listing chemical compounds Options
Audiendus
Posted: Wednesday, May 9, 2018 9:14:42 AM
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One problem in compiling a comprehensive dictionary of all English words is the limitless number of possible chemical compounds, particularly in organic chemistry where very large molecules can be synthesized, and the number of possible arrangements of atoms grows exponentially with the size of the molecule. As Wikipedia says in Glossary of chemical formulas, "there is no complete list of chemical compounds, since by nature the list would be infinite".

Which names of compounds should be considered "actual" words? All those that have been written down at least once? All those that have been heard spoken at least once, even if they have never been written (perhaps because the compounds in question were only conjectural)? All those for which a chemical formula, atomic diagram or other non-verbal representation has been written/drawn but which have never been explicitly named with a word, although a specific potential name is available according to the established naming rules?

Some of the potential words could be hundreds or even thousands of letters long.
Sarrriesfan
Posted: Wednesday, May 9, 2018 10:44:47 AM

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I would consider a chemical compound to be a real word if it could be created as a real compound.

It's a complicated issue my chemistry is too rusty to give examples but there are some potential arrangements that are so incompatible that they could not possibly exist.

I lack the imagination for a witty signature.
Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Wednesday, May 9, 2018 11:53:15 AM

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For me, a normal dictionary should contain compounds which have been named and used outside of the fields of chemistry/biochemistry.
A specialist dictionary could have whatever you want.
"Copper Sulphate" is used in gardening and house repairs (a very effective fungicide and weed-killer), Potassium Chloride is in common use as "low-sodium salt", acetylsalicylic acid used to be quite popular (as aspirin).

However, iso-di-butyl-bi-8-iso-ethyl-cata-octa-6-di-penta-kryptonite is not so commonly known, and really does not need an entry in a dictionary.
Possibly as an appendix, the dictionary could contain a 'rule-table' explaining exactly how the names are made up from the molecular pattern, so that ALL chemical names would be defined by the table.


Wyrd bið ful aræd - bull!
Elvandil
Posted: Wednesday, May 9, 2018 12:04:31 PM

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Words are meant to be spoken. Chemical names are not. Modern nomenclature with its primes, superscripts, subscripts, brackets, and parentheses, etc. does not even have a standard spoken representation, like math formulas which each teacher develops their own idiosyncratic method of verbalizing. If it is not made up of letters only, it is not a word.

Chemical names are not, strictly speaking, English. They are universal as determined by IUPAC and used in all languages.

Though the number of names and compounds is very large, it is not infinite by any stretch of the imagination.

Most complex chemical names are never pronounced, even once, and certainly those developed by theoretical chemists would be in that category for the most part.

Sarrriesfan wrote:
I would consider a chemical compound to be a real word if it could be created as a real compound.

It's a complicated issue my chemistry is too rusty to give examples but there are some potential arrangements that are so incompatible that they could not possibly exist.



That would be too limiting. Even something as simple as the hydroxyl anion or group cannot be synthesized or exist in isolation. And certainly useful transition states also have questionable existence in many cases though used daily by chemists to good purpose.
(iso-di-butyl-bi-8-iso-ethyl-cata-octa-6-di-penta-kryptonite has always been my favorite among the kryptonites, though chemical names exist in that form to specify their geometry and I have a hard time picturing that one.d'oh!)






(議思不の界世) pןɹoʍ ǝɥʇ ɟo sɹǝpuoʍ ǝɥʇ ɟo ǝuo sı ǝpoɔıun
Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Wednesday, May 9, 2018 1:30:47 PM

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I haven't seen your name (and atomic avatar) in a while , Elvandil.

I have a very vague idea of how that naming-system works.

I know you can have a formula like C₁₂H₂₂O₁₁ (sucrose - ordinary cane-sugar) - then you can have a formula like the one above (as you say, with brackets and parentheses and numbers). There are at least two different "molecule shapes" for this combination of atoms, and they have different names.
This actually gives a picture of the shape of the molecule. It says how the carbon atoms are arranged in circles of six atoms, and exactly how the other atoms are connected. I really can't read those things. I just use the definition "a chemical" for all of them.
The 'table' I was meaning as a dictionary appendix was the one which gives the rules used in that description. Just in case anyone really wants to know.

I think that kryptonite is the one where the second carbon ring is rotated through the fourth dimension by minus 90 degrees.Whistle Whistle

Wyrd bið ful aræd - bull!
thar
Posted: Wednesday, May 9, 2018 2:05:55 PM

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What really needs sorting is the meaning of 'organic' - organic food is food that for example doesn't use pesticides - which are organic compounds d'oh!

And of 'chemical' - something that says it 'contains no chemicals' must be a true vacuum.

I am still puzzled by a product I once saw for hair straightening, claiming it contained no chemicals. I imagined people opening the box and finding an iron. Except even that is made of chemicals!

I agree there is no reason to have a list of all organic compounds - all you need is the 'kit' - the naming conventions.


And a bit of education!

This is an old one:
Quote:
Dihydrogen Monoxide (DHMO) is a colorless and odorless chemical compound, also referred to by some as Dihydrogen Oxide, Hydrogen Hydroxide, Hydronium Hydroxide, or simply Hydric acid. Its basis is the highly reactive hydroxyl radical, a species shown to mutate DNA, denature proteins, disrupt cell membranes, and chemically alter critical neurotransmitters. The atomic components of DHMO are found in a number of caustic, explosive and poisonous compounds such as Sulfuric Acid, Nitroglycerine and Ethyl Alcohol.

Should I be concerned about Dihydrogen Monoxide?
Yes, you should be concerned about DHMO! Although the U.S. Government and the Centers for Disease Control (CDC) do not classify Dihydrogen Monoxide as a toxic or carcinogenic substance (as it does with better known chemicals such as hydrochloric acid and benzene), DHMO is a constituent of many known toxic substances, diseases and disease-causing agents, environmental hazards and can even be lethal to humans in quantities as small as a thimbleful.

Research conducted by award-winning U.S. scientist Nathan Zohner concluded that roughly 86 percent of the population supports a ban on dihydrogen monoxide. Although his results are preliminary, Zohner believes people need to pay closer attention to the information presented to them regarding Dihydrogen Monoxide. He adds that if more people knew the truth about DHMO then studies like the one he conducted would not be necessary.
A similar study conducted by U.S. researchers Patrick K. McCluskey and Matthew Kulick also found that nearly 90 percent of the citizens participating in their study were willing to sign a petition to support an outright ban on the use of Dihydrogen Monoxide in the United States.

Why haven't I heard about Dihydrogen Monoxide before?
Good question. Historically, the dangers of DHMO, for the most part, have been considered minor and manageable. While the more significant dangers of Dihydrogen Monoxide are currently addressed by a number of agencies including FDA, FEMA and CDC, public awareness of the real and daily dangers of Dihydrogen Monoxide is lower than some think it should be.
Critics of government often cite the fact that many politicians and others in public office do not consider Dihydrogen Monoxide to be a "politically beneficial" cause to get behind, and so the public suffers from a lack of reliable information on just what DHMO is and why they should be concerned. Part of the blame lies with the public and society at large. Many do not take the time to understand Dihydrogen Monoxide, and what it means to their lives and the lives of their families.
Unfortunately, the dangers of DHMO have increased as world population has increased, a fact that the raw numbers and careful research both bear out. Now more than ever, it is important to be aware of just what the dangers of Dihydrogen Monoxide are and how we can all reduce the risks faced by ourselves and our families.

What are some of the dangers associated with DHMO?
Each year, Dihydrogen Monoxide is a known causative component in many thousands of deaths and is a major contributor to millions upon millions of dollars in damage to property and the environment. Some of the known perils of Dihydrogen Monoxide are:

Death due to accidental inhalation of DHMO, even in small quantities.
Prolonged exposure to solid DHMO causes severe tissue damage.
Excessive ingestion produces a number of unpleasant though not typically life-threatening side-effects.
DHMO is a major component of acid rain.
Gaseous DHMO can cause severe burns.
Contributes to soil erosion.
Leads to corrosion and oxidation of many metals.
Contamination of electrical systems often causes short-circuits.
Exposure decreases effectiveness of automobile brakes.
Found in biopsies of pre-cancerous tumors and lesions.
Given to vicious dogs involved in recent deadly attacks.
Often associated with killer cyclones in the U.S. Midwest and elsewhere, and in hurricanes including deadly storms in Florida, New Orleans and other areas of the southeastern U.S.
Thermal variations in DHMO are a suspected contributor to the El Nino weather effect.



One of the most surprising facts recently revealed about Dihydrogen Monoxide contamination is in its use as a food and produce "decontaminant." Studies have shown that even after careful washing, food and produce that has been contaminated by DHMO remains tainted by DHMO.

BobShilling
Posted: Wednesday, May 9, 2018 4:51:44 PM
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But, without Dihydrogen monoxide, we wouldn't have beer.
Audiendus
Posted: Wednesday, May 9, 2018 8:49:33 PM
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Quote:
Dihydrogen Monoxide (DHMO) is a colorless and odorless chemical compound, also referred to by some as Dihydrogen Oxide, Hydrogen Hydroxide, Hydronium Hydroxide, or simply Hydric acid.

Acid? When I was at school, it didn't turn litmus paper red...
Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Sunday, May 13, 2018 3:13:53 PM

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From 2005-2014, eleven people per day died in the USA directly due to Dihydrogen Monoxide inhalation - twenty percent of these people were children.

Wyrd bið ful aræd - bull!
Jyrkkä Jätkä
Posted: Tuesday, May 15, 2018 5:41:44 AM

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Just think if a large piece of frozen DHMO falls on your head from some rooftop when you're walking on a street in the winter.


In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.
TMe
Posted: Tuesday, May 15, 2018 10:39:57 AM

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Methinks the discussion has drifted a lot from possibility of compiling comprehensive dictionary of English to effects of falling of DHMO on one’s head in a street.
Now somebody will opine it’s the beauty of the forum.
Returning to thread, I feel that there should be separate Dictionary of Chemistry as we have
1)Medical Dictionary
2)Legal Dictionary
3) Financial Dictionary and
4)English Dictionary


English dictionary for everyone, others for the specialists or for anybody's help.


I am a layman.
Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Tuesday, May 15, 2018 11:32:12 AM

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Ah, well, that brings us back to the original question.
Which chemical compounds would you include?

I had a very brief look at some which I know.
There is a whole book, describing sugar in its various forms and names.

The simplest one (C₆H₁₂O₆)has three 'common' forms, but they have several names.
dextrose = d-glucose = glucose = dextrorotatory monosaccharide = dextrorotatory sugar = . . .
lavulose = d-fructose = levulose = l-glucose = laevorotatory monosaccharide = laevorotatory sugar = fructose = . . .
"glucose" bought in shops is usually a mixture of the two in powder form.
galactose - the same chemical formula, but has a different molecule-shape.

"sugar" = a combination of glucose and fructose, usually in crystals, so it is really a disaccharide, C₁₂H₂₂O₁₁ (+H₂O) - but that is also the chemical formula for lactose and maltose.

However, chemically, "sugar" refers to hundreds of different chemicals which can be built up by adding further glucose, fructose and galactose molecules (and removing more water). The bigger the molecule, the more possible names there are for the same chemical formula.

And that's just one small class of chemicals.

What about "salt"? Thousands of different chemicals are 'salts'.

****************
I would say that a dictionary of chemicals would be good (and quite large) if it contained all the chemicals with 'common names' - salt, sugar, carbohydrate, bleach, washing soda, caustic soda, baking soda, lye, PVC, PVA, Bakelite, and so on.


Wyrd bið ful aræd - bull!
Sanmayce
Posted: Wednesday, May 23, 2018 3:19:47 PM

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My master "The Old Infant" says - The great land/square has no corners. Meaning, the great empire has no borders, if this notion/principle is to be applied in making the body of English then instantly one sees that English (being the Latin sponge) is where all transliterated words coming either from chemistry, Arabic, Chinese you name it, have their unacknowledged yet place, a matter of time it is they to arrive in the incoming ultrab (stronger than superb) dictionary/list of all words.

This thread holds something precious, the notion of dumping the Logos, I myself have been swayed by the potential beauty of having myriad of words listed even before you come to need them, the idea one word is to be used once only in the human history doesn't mean it has lesser value. Ranking is another opera, having all "participants" is a must - it opens so many doors once established/presented, imagine a kid seeing such comprehensive list, immediately the sheer vastness would inspire appreciation and instill awesomeness, for life.

Audiendus, salute you for raising the topic, those compound words, to me, are phrases, that is, n-grams. Of course, concatenating them with dashes makes them becoming words, having both ways - hidden beauty in plain sight it is, H2O has no bearing in such a list, "water" has, "dihydrogen-monoxide" also.

On that note, currently I am wresting with 35 Japanese dictionaries, sadly the "transliteration" into Latin/English is not done fully by the Japanese lexicographers, I come to conclusion they kinda hate Romaji system, but they are not to be blamed since the English colleagues of theirs messed up big time their game in the first place with atrocities like IPA. So, chemistry is not something outwith but a natural part of language, same goes for the entire Japanese language - all its words are part of Future English language, inclusion imminent, hee-hee.

He learns not to learn and reverts to what all men pass by.
Sanmayce
Posted: Wednesday, May 23, 2018 3:47:00 PM

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These are the beauties:

epwing_Eiwaei_Business
epwing_Eiwaei_Eijiro
epwing_Eiwaei_Eiwachu
epwing_Eiwaei_Genius
epwing_Eiwaei_Kanjidic
epwing_Eiwaei_Kenkyusha_Eiwa_Daijiten_V6
epwing_Eiwaei_Kenkyusha_Waei_Daijiten_V5
epwing_Eiwaei_Readers
epwing_Eiwaei_Royal
epwing_Eiwaei_Saitou
epwing_Eiwaei_senmon_Nanzando_igaku
epwing_Eiwaei_senmon_Nichigai_igaku
epwing_Eiwaei_senmon_Nichigai_kagaku
epwing_Eiwaei_senmon_Rikagaku
epwing_Eiwaei_senmon_Saishini
epwing_Eiwaei_senmon_Seibutu
epwing_Eiwaei_senmon_Shinrigaku
epwing_Eiwaei_senmon_Shizenkei
epwing_Encycl_Gakken_hyakka
epwing_Encycl_Heibon_hyakka
epwing_Kokugo_Daijirin
epwing_Kokugo_Daijisen
epwing_Kokugo_Kojien
epwing_Kokugo_Meikyou
epwing_Kokugo_Shinjirin
epwing_Kokugo_Shinmeikai
epwing_Kokugo_misc_Hyobun
epwing_Kokugo_misc_Hyogen
epwing_Kokugo_misc_Kotowaza_kogo
epwing_Kokugo_misc_Ruigigo
epwing_Kokugo_misc_Tegami
epwing_Kokugo-senmon_Jidousya
epwing_Kokugo-senmon_Jiyuhouritu
epwing_Kokugo-senmon_Keizaiyougo
epwing_Kokugo-senmon_Kenchiku
epwing_Kokugo-senmon_Nihonsi
epwing_Kokugo-senmon_Rekisi
epwing_Kokugo-senmon_Sejinmei
epwing_Nicchunichi_Taishukan_Chunichi


Just look at the poetical wording:
広辞苑 Kojien-(Wide_garden_of_words)
大辞林 Daijirin-(Great_forest_of_words)
大辞泉 Daijisen-(Great_fountainhead_of_words)


The Chinese/Japanese excel at naming, the direct cause being their sensitivity towards Nature. Their coinages when transliterated/translated would reinforce English beautifully, I reckon.

He learns not to learn and reverts to what all men pass by.
leonAzul
Posted: Tuesday, May 29, 2018 9:22:00 PM

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Audiendus wrote:
Quote:
Dihydrogen Monoxide (DHMO) is a colorless and odorless chemical compound, also referred to by some as Dihydrogen Oxide, Hydrogen Hydroxide, Hydronium Hydroxide, or simply Hydric acid.

Acid? When I was at school, it didn't turn litmus paper red...


Indeed, it usually turned my blotter purple…
Whistle


"Make it go away, Mrs Whatsit," he whispered. "Make it go away. It's evil."
Sanmayce
Posted: Friday, June 1, 2018 4:10:52 AM

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Acidum Nitrochlordragonesicum. Chloro-nitro-dragonicum.

Title: Repertorium corporum organicorum, secundum atomisticam, procenticam et relaticam compositionem ...: Addita praefatione G. J. Mulder
Author: C. H. D. Buys Ballot
Publisher: Van Dorp, 1844
Original from: the Bavarian State Library


He learns not to learn and reverts to what all men pass by.
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