There are numerous websites where ex-Christians can network and share their experiences, and as a Christian I am aware of some of the reasons ex-Christians give for choosing not to continue to follow Christ.

By ex-Christian I mean someone who once believed in Jesus Christ, received Him as their personal Saviour, participating and co-operating in worship, fellowship, stewardship, discipleship, evangelism, leadership, and intercession in accordance with God's will, as communicated in the Bible, but for some reason or reasons abandoned these facets of faith.

Some people just drift away, their attention drawn to things of the world.

Sometimes an ex-Christian will comment that they just became bored.

Another reason sometimes given is that they felt coerced in some way, apparently under heavy authoritarian rule.

I was born and raised in the Anglican tradition and from early childhood made numerous responses to the Gospel by repenting of sin and committing my life to Christ, but until I experienced a remarkable visitation from Jesus Christ Himself 31 years ago when I was 26, these responses and commitments seemed to be of no avail as I always found myself backsliding away from the required standard of conduct and service. By the time I was 26 this pattern of behaviour had become very distressing and I was desperate for a way of escape. That escape was provided following my visitation by Christ as a Theophany (look it up),when in travailing prayer and intercession, I made an honest decision not to deny Him by the way I was living, and in return He audibly assured me that "in whom He has begun a good work, He will be faithful to complete it".

When I was 30 I chose not to continue in the Anglican tradition, preferring to express my faith as a Saint of the Narrow Way.

Yes, the world can draw people away from Christ if they let it.

Yes, boredom can be a problem for Christians.

Yes, heavy authoritarian rule can kill a Christian's desire to continue in the faith, but Christ said trials and tribulations would test our faith and He called us to be overcomers.

The factors that cause a person to become an ex-Christian do need addressing, but the fact still remains, without the love of the truth whereby we are saved, there is only strong delusion.(Scripture available on request.)

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Job 33:15 "In a dream, in a vision of the night, When deep sleep falls upon men, In slumberings upon the bed;" Theology 101 "If He doesn't know everything then He isn't God."

The reason most nominal Christians choose to no longer be called such is, I suspect, because they had no choice in the tag. Catholics traditionally assign an age of reason (hence choice) at around seven years whilst most Catholics are baptised at a couple of months old. You can count adult conversions as the real McCoy but I suggest, Dreamy, that there are far fewer genuine believers than you suppose. Most people give up the 'faith' because they never had it in the first place. It was imposed upon them.

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"Millions long for immortality who don't know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon" Suzanne Ertz

I do wonder if the christian god is so judgemental? I think I would have some sympathy for someone subjected to extreme torture who "in a moment of weakness" recanted, and then felt truly sorry afterwards for being human, as the creator made him/her.

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"The voice of the majority is no proof of justice." - Schiller

And of course, percivalpecksniff, your interpretation cannot possibly be wrong. I thought it was just a novel way of saying 'Big Jim'.
I am always suspicious of the motives of those who quote scripture and you are the master at firing off verses of the Word of God. How about Mt.7:1, 'Do not judge or you too will be judged'.Or Mt 7:18, 'A good tree cannot bear bad fruit'. Or 2 Peter 1:10-11, 'Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things you will never fall'.
Notice in Mt 7:18 the word 'cannot'. Bearing only good fruit is not an option if you are in Christ. And in 2 Peter note 'calling and election'. Who calls us? Who elects us? Isn't it God? And does God make mistakes? And if we fall will He not help us up again?
As for 1 Cor. 10:12, you should read the preceding verses and you will see that Paul is issuing a warning from Israel's history that unbelievers will certainly never see the Promised Land and reading on from verse 12 there is the assurance from Paul that if we do fall God has already provided a way to help us up again.

Yes Percivalpecksniff, you need to do more reading and less quoting of Scripture.

Jacobusmaximus you put up a smoke screen and do not address the issue... furthermore you

fail to apply scripture honestly.

It is am old trick to avoid addressing the point made and go down a side lane to cloud the

issue. The fact remains:


1 Corinthians 10:12

New International Version (NIV)


12 So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don’t fall!



You blithely said:

If you torture me I will say anything you want. I will deny Christ out loud and I will call God a bastard if it will make you stop torturing me. But as soon as you go away I will smile and remember that God promised that he would never leave me nor forsake me. Never.



You would do well to read the book of Job, who under severe test

worse than you can imagine... refused refused to curse the name of God.


Satan siad he would:


Job 2:5

New International Version (NIV)


5 But now stretch out your hand and strike his flesh and bones, and he will surely curse you to your face.”


but:


Job 2:9-10

New King James Version (NKJV)


9 Then his wife said to him, “Do you still hold fast to your integrity? Curse God and die!”
10 But he said to her, “You speak as one of the foolish women speaks. Shall we indeed accept good from God, and shall we not accept adversity?” In all this Job did not sin with his lips.


Have you never heard of integrity?

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It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. Aristotle

And Perce, how do you know I can't imagine Job's testing? You don't know me one bit and yet you judge me. I will pray for you tonight.

OK, some thoughts on .....

a) it can be learnt from your parents, and some people who encounter it at a young age have a serious problem and struggle to break away from it

b) people can feel controlled and oppressed by it

b) when abused it can be responsible for misery and deaths

c) when enjoyed in moderation it can be joyous, communal and deeply satisfying

Umm, I was talking about alcoholism and alcohol, which is legally restricted to those who have reached a certain age, or at the very least, taken by children in small amounts in a diluted form. It is an offence to force it on children!

Now, back to the thread about religion...

jacobusmaximus you said:

I don't quite follow you intelfam. We are talking here about a Christian being tortured to make him or her say that they reject Christ. I am saying that one who loves Christ can say it but they cannot, and will not, mean it. Christ understands about pain. He bore it but doesn't expect us to suffer it beyond what we can bear (you will know that that is solid Biblical teaching). Our Saviour knows our hearts. If we are tortured beyond the point of endurance it is alright to say you deny Christ if it is simply to get your torturer to stop. Saying it doesn't make you a non-believer.

May I remind you of the early Christians who were tied together... women, children, youths

and men and then were torn to pieces by lions in the Roman arenas?

Why? Because they refused to burn incense to the Roman Emperor. To have done so would have denied their

King... the Messiah.

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It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. Aristotle

I think he was answering the question here:
http://forum.thefreedictionary.com/postst17531p2_Christian-fundamentalist--Menace-to-society-.aspx

Thursday, July 28, 2011 8:16:40 AM

jacobusmaximus wrote:

If a person does a murder he never was a Christian. He may have made a profession of faith, perhaps even lived like a Christian, but if he could bring himself to murder he never was a Christian. One must accept that as a fundamental truth and start from there. Those who led Crusades, Inquisitions and the like were not BAD Christians. They just never were Christians in the first place.

What if a person does sexual molesting? Was he never a Christian ?

If a man, say, targets a vulnerable person (male or female) and creates the opportunity to molest that person for his own sexual gratificatuion then he never was a Christian. Christians would never allow themselves to entertain such thoughts. A Christian, however, could find himself tempted to go too far and be guilty of sexual molestation. That is not the end of his life as a Christian, because, if he truly repents of his sins (that is never doing it again) and confesses before God that he has sinned and that he is to blame, then God will forgive him and he can continue living in Christ. --Unquote




So you can get back to where you belonged to , but again you might get in the situation where you never were Christians in the first place, but then you might be able to get another chance, though you might get in another situation where...

Wanderer wrote:

You were saved, because you were obedient and when you decide not to associate with God anymore he no longer has a remedy for the disobedient. My question is if you have once been in grace and you turned away can you come back into grace?

Thankyou for your posts, Wanderer.

To answer your question without posting a 40 minute sermon, it depends on the nature of the turning away. A quick read of Jeremiah 18 will help anyone seeking insight into the problem.

The illustration is of a potter and a clay vessel which is marred, but rather than discard it completely the potter makes a fresh start and refashions the vessel, something that can take place many times until the potter is satisfied with the finished vessel, or decides to give up and condemn the lump of clay.

If a person consistently backslides it may be due to demonic forces that have a foothold in their life, and these need to be resisted and removed. A person who wilfully backslides without addressing their condition will eventually find themselves beyond redemption.

Romans 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

Romans 8:5-8 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. (6) For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. (7) Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. (8) So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Even though practicing Christians are by Biblical definition, "saved", having both the assurance and hope of salvation, it is not until Judgement Day that those whose names are written in the Lamb's Book of Life begin their experience of "eternal salvation".

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Job 33:15 "In a dream, in a vision of the night, When deep sleep falls upon men, In slumberings upon the bed;" Theology 101 "If He doesn't know everything then He isn't God."

ray41 says that Christ was not subjected to the extent of torture suffered by victims of the Inquisitors. You may be right about the extent of physical torture, but what about mental torture? Remember that Christ came from heaven - from absolute holiness where was absolutely holy. Sin could not exist in heaven because of the holiness of the Godhead. Next Christ comes into the world in human form where he lives for about 33 years and resists all temptation to sin. He remains holy. Then, on the Cross, Christ becomes sin, to die with sin so that sin can no longer have power over those who believe in him. God the Father cannot look upon sin so he turns away from his dying Son and Jesus calls out "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" Note here that sin has fully taken hold of Jesus. This is not some token gesture. Jesus is sin, and he knows it. That is torture beyond what any Inquisitor could have inflicted on a professing Christian. I still believe that they remained Christians, no matter what they said, because of God's promise never to forsake them. And I still believe that torturers, by whatever name, are not and never were Christians.

That Jesus as god and son of God is a real beleif that can not be judged by a logic or any other vivid or virtual instrument. Beleives are acence of life being as a social creature, that either rely on blind trust (love) or blind justis (truth.)
There are relative trust based beleives those may be derived from a strong judgmental beleif. For example I beleive there is a single God, the creator of the univers because I judged it through my logic and understandings. Further I relatively beleive in the prophets because it were they who brought the logic to us along with the rest of beleives that can be judged as blind trust. I perceive a religion as a set of interconnected judgemental and trust based beleives. Once the judgmental beleives fall the rest get down with them.

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*It's wonderful to know that all languages are Greek if not understood.*

I just began to read The God Delusion(Clinton Richard Dawkins).

Excerpt:

Or do you think that religious belief is necessary in
order for us to have justifiable morals? Don't we need God, in order
to be good? Please read Chapters 6 and 7 to see why this is not so.

Do you still have a soft spot for religion as a good thing for the
world, even if you yourself have lost your faith? Chapter 8 will
invite you to think about ways in which religion is not such a good
thing for the world.

almostfreebird wrote:

I just began to read The God Delusion(Clinton Richard Dawkins).

Excerpt:

Or do you think that religious belief is necessary in
order for us to have justifiable morals? Don't we need God, in order
to be good? Please read Chapters 6 and 7 to see why this is not so.

Do you still have a soft spot for religion as a good thing for the
world, even if you yourself have lost your faith? Chapter 8 will
invite you to think about ways in which religion is not such a good
thing for the world.

Don't be deceived by deluded Dawkins, almostfreebird.Why should anyone give credence to this ignorant fellow? He has proven to be shallow and unspiritual.
There is a name for persons who seek to replace Christ with themselves - antiChrist, and it is they who are given strong delusion by God when they receive not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

(2 Thessalonians 2:11) And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

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Job 33:15 "In a dream, in a vision of the night, When deep sleep falls upon men, In slumberings upon the bed;" Theology 101 "If He doesn't know everything then He isn't God."

That's a paranoia or delusion of persecution.

By the way, why is your point minus 167.

Up to the age of 17 more or less, I firmly believed (or feared) that if I failed to attend church on sundays (I was educated on the catholic faith) a ray would come from heaven and punish me. On thursdays we were supposed to go to confession and quite often we didn´t know what to confess so we had to invent things like "I was naughty with my mother". so to please the priest, declaring that you had nothing to confess would have annoyed him a lot. Growing up, I begun to understand that all what I had been taught was not coincident with what my brain was understanding, seeing, hearing and feeling. I was not able to go on believing in something thru blind faith in contrast to faith which is based on results and rational experiences.
I have tried to conduct a discussion based on rational arguments with an evangelic christian but it failed. According to my perception, the evangelic christian was not able to keep a rational discussion but instead basing it´s opinions in it´s faith already.

Physi28,
welcome to Freedelfia.
I was left a bit confused what was your point of view in this matter.

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I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.