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DACA youth Stay or Go? Options
progpen
Posted: Friday, April 13, 2018 9:07:02 AM

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Location: Minneapolis, Minnesota, United States
Hope, I had read the article and the idea simply makes far too much sense and is too logical to be of any use to the right wing who see immigration as a very reliable revenue stream. As long as the right wing can keep their base in fear, those people will contribute to right wing campaign chests. The best way to keep them in fear is to have an immigration system that forces people to try to enter the US illegally. As long as they can wave that "illegal" label in front of their base, they have money pouring into their pockets. There is also the massive industry built around border control as well as the prison industry that would suffer terribly if the US immigration problem were fixed.

Note not because immigrants are criminals but because the police, military and prison systems are being used for immigrant detention.
https://www.uclalawreview.org/pdf/61-5-5.pdf


Nolite te bastardes carborundorum
Hope123
Posted: Friday, April 13, 2018 9:59:49 AM

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Location: Burlington, Ontario, Canada
How sad for your country, Proggy, that the proposal makes too much sense. Always the dollar as the bottom line, no matter the issue it seems. How did the human race get to be so greedy? Rhetorical question, because that's who we are.

Digression - They were always there but there are many ugly human characteristics being exposed these days. (I'm thinking as well of this morning's news of the arrests of an international human and sex trafficking ring that were using children - a sexual victim was only 10 months old. What depravity. It makes me sad that there are such humans in my species and some live right next door to me in Toronto. There were more in other parts of Canada as well as around the world.)

It is not the strongest of the species that survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change.
FounDit
Posted: Friday, April 13, 2018 3:07:23 PM

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Nope, not sad at all. It was their parents and Obama, through his DACA directive, who put them in the limbo they now are experiencing, not us, and it isn't the job of our government, or our people to make them feel better, or to give them citizenship. In fact, I really couldn't care less whether they become citizens or not. I'm more interested in the welfare of our own citizens than people who come here illegally, whether children or not.

But as for them becoming citizens legally over 40,000 have done so by simply leaving the U.S., returning and filing for a green card, and becoming lawful permanent residents. So the idea there is no legal pathway is not true. There is a pathway to legal status and from there to citizenship.
https://www.factcheck.org/2018/01/the-facts-on-daca/


A great many people will think they are thinking when they are merely rearranging their prejudices. ~ William James ~
progpen
Posted: Friday, April 13, 2018 10:28:46 PM

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Location: Minneapolis, Minnesota, United States
Sure you can apply for citizenship, just leave the country first. Where you go and how you get there? Not my problem.

Christ on a sidecar, what a racket.

Nolite te bastardes carborundorum
Hope123
Posted: Friday, April 13, 2018 11:10:16 PM

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They can't FD. There are no more approvals for advanced parole.

Edited - those 40,000 were extremely lucky to have the resources to deport themselves and to find a country willing to let them stay there for the length of time it took to get the green card. It seems as long as DACA have to jump through hoops to get a green card it is fine with you - when a stroke of a pen could make it easy. It's only a few Americans who are so angry at the parents who brought them that they have no compassion for the kids.

Since several times you mention that Obama was the one who had compassion and tried to help them, I suspect your anger at him has something to do with your hard line too. Only you know why you reject those kids so much.

::::

So here's a Shameless plug for permanent residency in Canada from a CDN lawyer's blog:

If you are a Dreamer and you want to apply for permanent residence in Canada, that should not be a problem. With high English language proficiency and a completed university degree and a few years of work experience, qualifying under Express Entry could be possible. 

If you want to apply for temporary residence in Canada, for example a work or student visa, this might be more difficult for two reasons:
There are no more approvals for travel eligibility (advance parole) so if you get accepted for a temporary visa to Canada, and you do not have advanced parole, you are forfeiting your DACA status in the USA.


When applying for a temporary visa to Canada, you must satisfy that you will leave Canada at the end of your stay. If your Dreamer status is cancelled, the visa officer might suspect that your intention to return to your country of citizenship would be low, since you have not resided there for many years, and therefore refuse admission to you.

It is not the strongest of the species that survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change.
Hope123
Posted: Friday, April 13, 2018 11:12:57 PM

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Joined: 3/23/2015
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Location: Burlington, Ontario, Canada
Sad for the fact that money runs amok in your government, FD, of which you've approved to me yourself, and because there are so many with vested interests, nothing gets done - not just in immigration.

No, America doesn't "owe" Dreamers or people from other countries anything, any more than any other country does. But Dreamers are a humanitarian matter for a very small percentage of a large population that if done correctly would not cost the taxpayer a cent and hardly take the skin off any American's nose. Just off their Weltanschauung and party loyalty.

Yes, we certainly have different frames of reference. You view the Dreamers as a liability removing opportunities from others somehow, and have no compassion for them or the hardships of "deporting themselves". You have called the young university kids snowflakes.

I view the young as precious potential. In fact your hard line is throwing away a precious commodity.

These are precisely the people who Canada looks for in its immigration program. The DACA kids are young, with a lifetime of economic contribution in front of them. They are fluent in English, went to U.S. schools, have North American work experience – often in companies that can be found on either side of the Canada-U.S. border – and some have university degrees. To get DACA status, they had to be screened for security threats and criminal background, making them a pre-vetted group. A targeted program of 10,000-30,000 would allow Canada to select the very best matches with Canadian society and the economy.

It is not the strongest of the species that survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change.
FounDit
Posted: Saturday, April 14, 2018 11:31:46 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 9/19/2011
Posts: 8,786
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Hope123 wrote:
Sad for the fact that money runs amok in your government, FD, of which you've approved to me yourself, and because there are so many with vested interests, nothing gets done - not just in immigration.
It's true that money runs amok in the government and there is tremendous waste. It's also true that little gets done, mostly because of vested interest, playing politics ("appearances/posturing" rather than facts and accomplishment), and immigration is a great political football for appearances/posturing over actually doing something.

No, America doesn't "owe" Dreamers or people from other countries anything, any more than any other country does. But Dreamers are a humanitarian matter for a very small percentage of a large population that if done correctly would not cost the taxpayer a cent and hardly take the skin off any American's nose. Just off their Weltanschauung and party loyalty.
You say we don't "owe" them anything yet insist we do it anyway. For what reason? Why does anyone who doesn't live here care what our immigration policy is? And why aren't these people required by you to obey our laws? Are you okay with people violating the immigration laws in Canada? If not, why are you okay with it here? (Rhetorical questions. I already know the answers)

Yes, we certainly have different frames of reference. You view the Dreamers as a liability removing opportunities from others somehow, and have no compassion for them or the hardships of "deporting themselves". You have called the young university kids snowflakes.
Now you are projecting. That isn't my view of "Dreamers" a.k.a. illegal aliens. And I can have compassion for them, but to borrow from today's Quote of the Day, "Some people have said, Sir, we have come into your country without permission. To which I reply, that fact does not create in me a sense of obligation."

I view the young as precious potential. In fact your hard line is throwing away a precious commodity.
I view our own young as preferred potential. Why should they young of another nation be given preferential treatment over our own? Okay, they had it tough in their country. Not my problem. It is theirs to fix, not mine or ours.

These are precisely the people who Canada looks for in its immigration program. The DACA kids are young, with a lifetime of economic contribution in front of them. They are fluent in English, went to U.S. schools, have North American work experience – often in companies that can be found on either side of the Canada-U.S. border – and some have university degrees. To get DACA status, they had to be screened for security threats and criminal background, making them a pre-vetted group. A targeted program of 10,000-30,000 would allow Canada to select the very best matches with Canadian society and the economy.

No, no no!! You don't get to have a "targeted program" of the very best. That is merit-based. You have to take all who show up at your borders and give them citizenship. That's what you want for us. But shipping them all to Canada is a great idea. Let you leaders know so we can direct all of them to you, and you can share your compassion with them.


A great many people will think they are thinking when they are merely rearranging their prejudices. ~ William James ~
Hope123
Posted: Saturday, April 14, 2018 4:51:31 PM

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Location: Burlington, Ontario, Canada
FD, Sigh. As usual this is going nowhere when you either don't read, remember, or maybe just ignore what I have already said and continue to repeat your talking points. You DON'T know the answers to your rhetorical questions and you wouldn't have to ask them if you had read my previous posts when I answered the exact same questions you asked of me before. I'm not going to quote myself as proof I said it, as it's all there in the two recent threads where we've been talking about this topic. So stop accusing me of being anti law and order and whatever else YOU think I think. You are projecting what you hear on TV that other pro DACA are "supposed to be" thinking.

SO - One LAST time - I agree with you on every point of requirements on law and order blah blah blah. EXCEPT that DACA is a special case. They WERE of a different country/race but are already "yours" whether you like it or not. They are just asking to be able to obey that one last law.

FounDit wrote: In fact, I really couldn't care less whether they become citizens or not.

This is certainly not my idea of compassion. I assume your "own" young are already citizens, so the idea that giving DACA citizenship is preferential treatment is not even logical.

You asked why do I care. It's because I care about what happens to people in any country. And although it wouldn't matter to me what their nationality is as it is their Catch-22 I dislike, I must admit, after spending four winters in Mexico, the many Mexican people I met were delightful and have a special place in my heart. We even had a couple of Mexican grandkids - in name only of course, as they had the most gracious generous parents and extended family. They went way beyond knowing how to treat their tourists and became friends.

Canada has a merit based immigration system. I never ever ever ever ever ever said I want you to accept everybody that arrives at your door. That's you and Willie Nelson's idea. A lovely idea but not pragmatic these days or maybe it never was. It is a romantic idea, and if you look at the history of our countries, it was never really accepted by the general public of Americans or Canadians in either country.

Right after Trump was elected, CDN governments and companies started partnerships to help all foreign-born students/workers in the US to overcome any obstacles to coming to work here and also to bring Canadians working in Silicon Valley home.

But you missed the whole point of Canada wanting as citizens the Dreamers with their great qualifications as listed in a previous post.

It is America's loss!



It is not the strongest of the species that survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change.
Hope123
Posted: Saturday, April 14, 2018 4:59:03 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 3/23/2015
Posts: 7,605
Neurons: 43,857
Location: Burlington, Ontario, Canada
Willie Nelson's "Promise Land"

https://youtu.be/BfiqENNv47Q


Give us your tired and weak
And we will make them strong
Bring us your foreign songs
And we will sing along

Leave us your broken dreams
We'll give them time to mend
There's still a lot of love
Living in the Promiseland

Living in the Promiseland
Our dreams are made of steel
The prayer of every man
Is to know how freedom feels

There is a winding road
Across the shifting sand
And room for everyone
Living in the Promiseland

So they came from a distant isle
Nameless woman
Faithless child like a bad dream
Until there was no room at all
No place to run, and no place to fall

Give us our daily bread
We have no shoes to wear
No place to call our home
Only this cross to bear

We are the multitudes
Lend us a helping hand
Is there no love anymore
Living in the Promiseland

Living in the Promiseland
Our dreams are made of steel
The prayer of every man
Is to know how freedom feels

There is a winding road
Across the shifting sand
And room for everyone
Living in the Promiseland

It is not the strongest of the species that survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change.
progpen
Posted: Saturday, April 14, 2018 8:18:56 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 10/2/2015
Posts: 1,692
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Location: Minneapolis, Minnesota, United States
OMG!

You demand that we take every person who shows up on our border!

You demand that we show equal compassion for foreign criminals as for our own saintly citizenry!

You demand that we give away all of our money and resources to immigrants!

You demand that we give special treatment to people we don't approve of!

You demand...you get the idea.

Nolite te bastardes carborundorum
FounDit
Posted: Sunday, April 15, 2018 11:08:14 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 9/19/2011
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No, Hope, you have never directly answered my question. Rather, you deflect. Point blank: if we are required to obey the laws of the U.S., why do you not require people who show up at our borders to do the same? And if they don't follow our laws, why should exceptions be made for them when others do follow it?

You say you "agree with me EXCEPT"...well then, you aren't agreeing with me. These kids who were brought here are NOT an exception. They are not citizens and they have no right to demand citizenship. Neither does anyone else have the right to demand we give it to them. We may, or we may not.

You may have compassion for them, but that isn't how laws work. Compassion doesn't override law. Progpen is apparently offended that we demand they obey our laws, but tough. I don't care if he is offended by that.

Societies cannot function without laws that proscribe behavior. People don't get to do what they "feel" like doing. And laws are not supposed to be based on emotion, that's why justice is portrayed as blind. The Quotation of the Day is again apropos. When the inclinations of the people are at variance with their best interests, it is the duty of those they have appointed to be the guardians of those best interests. And obedience to the laws are what is in our best interest.

You don't get to kill someone just because you are angry at them. You don't get to steal from others because you lack something. You don't get to break into someone's home because you want what they have there, and you don't get to break into another country because you want to live there, or because yours isn't as nice. Anyone who can't accept that and agree to it has no business making laws or public policy for the rest of us. It's just that simple.


A great many people will think they are thinking when they are merely rearranging their prejudices. ~ William James ~
Hope123
Posted: Sunday, April 15, 2018 12:08:14 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 3/23/2015
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Location: Burlington, Ontario, Canada
I can't say it any more plainly. Yes, all people should follow all laws. Migrants should be shown the door when they "show up" at your borders illegally.

The exception is to solve a PAST problem that is not in the same category. In the US, the age of criminal responsibility is established by state law and varies. Dreamers were children and not old enough to break the law. It's as simple as that.

Furthermore, as Dreamers were not the ones who broke the law - it was their parents - you say you are not responsible for the good or bad your parents did, so neither are the Dreamers. You are punishing them for the "deeds of their fathers". And categorizing them with other migrants who did break the law.

As adults they have complied with all the existing laws as they registered for the Dreamers. The irony of your demand that they follow the law is that all they want is to be allowed to do so. Since they didn't break any laws upon arrival, in a sense they are already legal. It is just a technicality to give them the piece of green paper.

Laws are changed to accommodate certain groups every day. (One I can think of off the top is the law that ivory trophies are now being allowed into the US to accommodate certain hunters. :) http://www.businessinsider.com/elephant-trophies-to-be-allowed-back-into-the-us-2017-11 )

You also continue to ignore the good Dreamers can bring to your country when you ask why an exception should be made. It's for the good of the country as well. Throwing the baby out with the bath water after all the investments already made in them is never a good idea.

::::::

No deflection. Your questions about my views on migrants breaking laws were answered fully.

Asked - April 5, 4:57 p.m. FounDit wrote: BTW, I’m still waiting for someone to tell me why, if we are required to obey the laws of the US, these migrants (emphasis mine) who want to come here are not required to do the same, get in line and apply like everyone else.

Asked - April 6, 11:12 a.m. FounDit wrote: Hope123, So do you support the idea of them (emphasis mine = migrants) obeying the law and getting in line and applying, or not?

Answered - April 10, 6:31 p.m. Hope123 wrote: BTW - from what I gather we actually have similar views about immigration. The only leniency I think is permissible is with this special case of these Dreamers as long as there are specific regulations set up for them as a one off. Every country needs to protect its borders and illegals should be processed, deported, and made to wait their turn. All immigrants and refugees need to be thoroughly vetted, which Canada does quite well. In fact, unlike the US, Canada wisely picks and chooses the best of the wannabe immigrants - those who will contribute to our society and economy.

And - when illegals cross the border into Canada from the US, if I were doing it, I would send them back right then, instead of putting them into jail, processing them, and then giving refugee status or deporting them - all at taxpayer expense
. There is not supposed to be any refugee status when they were in the States (and vice versa) - agreed by the two countries. My sympathy gives me one concern with turning them back - when they arrive walking in winter with frost bitten limbs - again taxing our already burdened health care system with amputations etc., but to turn them back then would not be humanitarian. However, unlike my hard line, Canada's policy is to process them first


Asked again - April 14, 11:31 a.m. FounDit wrote: And why aren't these people (assume migrants) required by you to obey our laws? Are you okay with people (assume migrants) violating the immigration laws in Canada? If not, why are you okay with it here? (Rhetorical questions. I already know the answers)

Asked again. April 15, 11:08 FounDit wrote: If we are required to obey the laws of the U.S., why do you not require people (assume migrants) who show up at our borders to do the same? And if they don't follow our laws, why should exceptions be made for them when others do follow it?

Answered above - I can't say it any more plainly... I do require people who show up at the borders to obey the laws in your country as well as mine. Children cannot break laws. That's the difference you ignore.

:::

I'm not too sure what Proggy was trying to convey. BTW - thanks for the lecture on what it means to be a law abiding citizen and why laws are necessary. I'll try and remember that next time I think about breaking and entering. Whistle Whistle Whistle

Anyhow, the floor's all yours.

It is not the strongest of the species that survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change.
TL Hobs
Posted: Monday, April 16, 2018 6:33:08 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 4/16/2009
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Location: Kenai, Alaska, United States
FounDit wrote:
[quote=TL Hobs]I have questions for Foundit. What country did your ancestors come from?
I have no idea, nor do I care.

Why did they leave their homeland?
I have no idea, nor do I care.

Things get too hot to handle at home?
I have no idea, nor do I care.

Do you really think a child (DACA) even knows what the laws are and has a choice in coming here illegally or waiting in line like everyone else?
I don't what they thought as children, but they certainly are aware of the laws now that they have grown into adulthood, and they do have a choice to apply legally, like everyone else.


Your response to my questions explains a lot. You confess to being ignorant and apathetic about your own situation in life and you do not understand the rationale behind DACA; i.e. give those who were brought here by their parents as children an opportunity to legally apply for citizenship.






"When you don't know where you are going, you have to stick together just in case someone gets there." - Ken Kesey
progpen
Posted: Monday, April 16, 2018 6:49:19 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 10/2/2015
Posts: 1,692
Neurons: 246,661
Location: Minneapolis, Minnesota, United States
progpen wrote:
OMG!

You demand that we take every person who shows up on our border!

You demand that we show equal compassion for foreign criminals as for our own saintly citizenry!

You demand that we give away all of our money and resources to immigrants!

You demand that we give special treatment to people we don't approve of!

You demand...you get the idea.


Though it seems that these comments went over the head of FD (or most likely, he just doesn't care), they do represent the hyperbole and overt exaggeration made by several people who frequent these forums, including FD, who seem to rely on a bit of disingenuous obtuseness to avoid discussing facts and data. Instead of providing information or anything to move a discussion along, they regurgitate these tired old right wing talking points as if they are sparkling new.

Nolite te bastardes carborundorum
Hope123
Posted: Monday, April 16, 2018 11:44:29 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 3/23/2015
Posts: 7,605
Neurons: 43,857
Location: Burlington, Ontario, Canada
Digression from DACA - Just under half of all immigrants in the US who are in the country illegally are Mexican nationals. Why don't we hear about the deportations of illegals from Canada, Germany, and other European or Scandinavian countries? Canadians make up over half of the overstays and overstays would be the easist to find because they have to give their personal info and American address upon entry. It certainly makes one wonder.

It is not the strongest of the species that survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change.
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