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DACA youth Stay or Go? Options
Professor
Posted: Monday, April 2, 2018 12:54:26 AM

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I am interested in gauging the pulse of America regarding DACA youth. First respond with whether you believe these youth should be sent back or if they should be granted a path to citizenship? Then if applicable discuss what changes are needed to the US immigration policy to facilitate this path? If you are against these youth being granted a path, discuss your thoughts as to why?

I am of the opinion that these youth should be offered two options, 1) if they want to be placed on a path to citizenship, then they should complete the application, fingerprinting, background check and then they shall be required to depart the US back to where they were born; they would be guaranteed to be placed on a fast path to return. The youth would complete their checks before deporting, and then their application with the US Embassy would expeditiously move them to return back to the USA usually within 7 days.

Or option two, accept on the spot legal resident status but forfeited the ability to ever become a citizen. In essence a permanent green card.

Your thoughts are greatly appreciated!



DACA--Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals (DACA) is an administrative relief policy from deportation. The purpose of DACA is to protect eligible immigrant youth who came to the United States when they were children from deportation.

US Legal Resident-- United States lawful permanent residency, informally known as green card, is the immigration status of a person authorized to live and work in the United States of America permanently.

US Citizenship path--Be a green card holder of at least 5 years, and you must
Be 18 or older at the time of filing.
Be a green card holder for at least 5 years immediately preceding the date of filing the Form N-400, Application for Naturalization.


"You reveal your character by what you do with what you have."
Buzzito
Posted: Monday, April 2, 2018 8:57:53 AM

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IF they stay, only them. Maybe their parents. No one else. No grandparents, brother or sister who await to migrate here. THAT IS IT! My brother-in-law has waited to do it the legal way for years, and HE is the one at the end of the line. No one likes to be displaced while waiting in line. Build the wall, extend the legal process of immigration to cover more applicants from other areas of the world also. Not just the Americas ---that is UNFAIR. People talk about fairness, it is completely irrelevant if you are not allowing people from other areas of the world. Also, why is that that refugees are not afforded the opportunity to relocate somewhere close to their country of origin. Seems to me, the world turns a blind eye and then, they criticize US here in the USA.

People accuse one another of racism, and insensitivity etc. Yet, how many other countries welcome immigrants on the scale the USA does? People in other countries act the same way many of us here do. There is a limit to how many we can take. Our environment suffers, the poor suffer as limited resources are doled out to persons, on an even larger scale than the coffers are prepared to do. No one talks about the environmental impact, not one I have heard. What about the fundamental causes of the migration in the first place? Is it a manner of expelling people from the countries they are coming from and their government pats than on the behind as they walk out the door? Poverty, crime, terrorism etc? How is the rest of the world responding to these problems?
FounDit
Posted: Monday, April 2, 2018 12:15:33 PM

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Despite Obama stating repeatedly, and correctly, that he did not have the authority to create DACA, he did so anyway. Twenty six states filed suit alleging it to be unconstitutional.

“The case was heard by Federal Judge Andrew Hanen, who ruled against Obama and placed a national injunction against it’s implementation. Two three judge panels of judges from the 5th Circuit Court of Appeals upheld his verdict, which Obama appealed to the Supreme Court, who let the ruling stand on a 4-4 vote. In the case of a tie by the Supreme Court, the lower court’s ruling stands.” (source: https://davidharrisjr.com/politics/daca-unconstitutional-yesterday-unconstitutional-today/ )

The president cannot bestow benefits not approved by congress, but did it anyway. Since they are here, and have grown up here, I’m not in favor of sending them out of the country, but I do agree that they should not be given favored treatment over all the others who have applied in proper fashion.

Therefore, I agree with these ideas of yours. To wit:

US Citizenship path--Be a green card holder of at least 5 years, and you must
Be 18 or older at the time of filing.
Be a green card holder for at least 5 years immediately preceding the date of filing the Form N-400, Application for Naturalization.

I also agree with Buzzito that they not be permitted to further chain migration.



We should look to the past to learn from it, not destroy our future because of it — FounDit
philips daughter
Posted: Monday, April 2, 2018 12:30:32 PM

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I cannot see how your recommendations for restrictions is any different than those that President Obama put forward. And why did he feel he must take that authority? The GOP congress would not even allow debate. That’s why. Only 800,000 people applied and received permission to stay for two years and be renewed. You know this is Foxx Sunday talk shows talking. That’s where he gets all of his political advice.
TL Hobs
Posted: Thursday, April 5, 2018 2:36:27 PM

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I am puzzled by the lack of concern our government leaders have over the fate of these people. Particularly in view of the fact that the basic element of US culture is the "family unit." How does tearing families apart by deportation help preserve the basic element of our society?

Consider that our divorce laws are designed to discourage divorce and to preserve the family. Income taxes favor those who are married and file as a unit, rather than as individuals. Part of the American dream is to grow up, get married, have 2.1 cars and 2.3 kids, buy a house in the suburbs, and become a family unit.

There are many other examples of this and I assume it to be true. So why then does the Trumps of this country believe it should be otherwise? All you have to do is look at his own record of 3 marriages and various extra-marital affairs to see that family values are lost on him. Also puzzling is why the evangelical mouth pieces heap praise on him, yet call families to attend their services and hear the teachings of Christ? Isn't that a double standard?

Does the Trump really believe that building a citizenry of well educated, intelligent and hard working over achievers will improve society? It is more likely that those kind of folks would vote for Democrats.

"When you don't know where you are going, you have to stick together just in case someone gets there." - Ken Kesey
FounDit
Posted: Thursday, April 5, 2018 4:57:43 PM

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TL Hobs wrote:


I am puzzled by the lack of concern our government leaders have over the fate of these people. Particularly in view of the fact that the basic element of US culture is the "family unit." How does tearing families apart by deportation help preserve the basic element of our society?
I, too, am puzzled. When did it become the responsibility of our government to be concerned about the family units of other countries? The primary concern of our government should be putting forth the wellbeing of the family units in the US, should it not? If not, why not?

BTW, I’m still waiting for someone to tell me why, if we are required to obey the laws of the US, these migrants who want to come here are not required to do the same, get in line and apply like everyone else.

Consider that our divorce laws are designed to discourage divorce and to preserve the family. Income taxes favor those who are married and file as a unit, rather than as individuals. Part of the American dream is to grow up, get married, have 2.1 cars and 2.3 kids, buy a house in the suburbs, and become a family unit.

There are many other examples of this and I assume it to be true. So why then does the Trumps of this country believe it should be otherwise? All you have to do is look at his own record of 3 marriages and various extra-marital affairs to see that family values are lost on him. Also puzzling is why the evangelical mouth pieces heap praise on him, yet call families to attend their services and hear the teachings of Christ? Isn't that a double standard?
Who says he does believe otherwise? One can still believe in the American dream, yet find that it doesn’t apply to him. I can believe I will become a millionaire, but that doesn’t mean it will happen. And if divorce and remarriage is the criterion for failing to achieve the American dream, then who was it that preached easy divorce, free love, sex, drugs and rock and roll, “if it feels good, do it”, and women don’t need men? Not Trump or the Republican party. That would be…umm…wait, it’ll come to me…oh, yeah…the Democrats.

Does the Trump really believe that building a citizenry of well educated, intelligent and hard working over achievers will improve society? It is more likely that those kind of folks would vote for Democrats.
ROTFLMAO. I would accuse you of joking, but I know you aren’t. So you believe the “a citizenry of well educated, intelligent and hard working over achievers” are people who support flooding the country with illegal aliens; who support overloading our schools, our welfare system, our court system, and depress wages; who would vote Democrat? Ummm…I don’t think so. In fact, I think it was just the opposite. It was “a citizenry of well educated, intelligent and hard working over achievers” who voted to elect Trump and put an end to that insanity.





We should look to the past to learn from it, not destroy our future because of it — FounDit
philips daughter
Posted: Thursday, April 5, 2018 6:53:36 PM

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Trump has repeatedly claimed about the rapist immigrants. Now he is claiming this caravan is run by just the kind of people raping at an unimaginable rate. Once again with no proof. He makes baseless statements. And this coming from Donald Trump. These women and children fleeing into Mexico and yes, heading to the border to beg asylum because of the abuses they endure in Honduras and El Salvador. I am just sad for the greed and hypocrisy of this administration. The Mexican government is arraigning asylum for them. The number of migrants in the world is what is unimaginable. With climate change it will only increase.
Hope123
Posted: Thursday, April 5, 2018 10:00:30 PM

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FounDit wrote: BTW, I’m still waiting for someone to tell me why, if we are required to obey the laws of the US, these migrants who want to come here are not required to do the same, get in line and apply like everyone else.

You mean like Melania Trump, nee Knauss, who worked without authorization on her visitor visa when she first came to the U.S? While they were dating, Trump relocated her family to New York, where her parents now live for most of the year. March 2001, Melania was granted a green card in the elite EB-1 program, “which was designed for renowned academic researchers, multinational business executives or those in other fields, such as Olympic athletes and Oscar-winning actors, who demonstrated ‘sustained national and international acclaim.'” What did Melania do? Model. WaPo questioned how that happened but no answers.

https://www.politicususa.com/2016/11/06/melania-trump-reported-customs-immigration-violations.html


Also, Melania's parents are about to become citizens but White House STILL won't say if Trump's in-laws benefitted from chain migration he wants banned

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5418977/Melanias-parents-citizens.html#ixzz5Br87XrUZ

The past is to be respected/acknowledged, not worshipped. It is in our future we will find our greatness. Pierre Trudeau
Hope123
Posted: Thursday, April 5, 2018 10:07:57 PM

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Professor, here's the link to a previous thread that evolved from putting THE wall through a wildlife sanctuary to a discussion about Dreamers. I don't know if there might be anything of interest to you there.

http://forum.thefreedictionary.com/postst179882p2_Texas-Border.aspx


The past is to be respected/acknowledged, not worshipped. It is in our future we will find our greatness. Pierre Trudeau
progpen
Posted: Thursday, April 5, 2018 10:46:34 PM

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10 myths about immigration:
https://www.tolerance.org/magazine/spring-2011/ten-myths-about-immigration

1). Most immigrants are here illegally.
Of the more than 43 million foreign-born people who were living in the United States in 2014, around 44 percent were naturalized U.S. citizens. Those who were not naturalized were either lawful permanent residents, also known as green-card holders (27 percent of all foreign-born people), or immigrants who were unauthorized (some 11 million people, representing 25.5 percent of all foreign-born people).

2). It's easy to enter the country legally. My ancestors did.
For about the first 100 years, the United States had an "open immigration system that allowed any able-bodied immigrant in,"...Many of our immigrant ancestors who arrived between 1790 and 1924 would not have been allowed in under the current policy. Permission to enter and stay in the country as a documented immigrant is limited to people who are highly trained in a skill that is in short supply here and have been offered a job by a U.S. employer, are escaping political persecution, are joining close family already here or are winners of the green-card lottery.

3). Today's immigrants don't want to learn English.
“When the United States entered the First World War [in 1917], there were over 700 German-language newspapers in the US. Yet German immigration had peaked in the 1870s.” The current demand for English instruction in the US is greater than the services available in many parts of the country.

4). Immigrants take good jobs from U.S. citizens.
There is little connection between immigrant labor and unemployment rates of native-born workers. Better education and an aging population—have resulted in a decrease in the number of workers born in the United States who are willing or available to take low-paying jobs. Compared with their small share of the civilian workforce overall, immigrants without authorization are only overrepresented in service, farming and construction occupations. This may be due to the fact that, to fill the void of low-skilled U.S. workers, employers often hire undocumented immigrant workers. One of the consequences of this practice is that it is easier for unscrupulous employers to exploit this labor source, paying immigrants less, refusing to provide benefits and ignoring worker-safety laws.

5). “The worst” people from other countries are coming to the United States and bringing crime and violence.
Statistics show that immigrants are less likely to commit serious crimes or be behind bars than native-born people are, and high rates of immigration are associated with lower rates of violent crime and property crime. For instance, “sanctuary counties” average 35.5 fewer crimes per 10,000 people compared to non-sanctuary counties. This holds true for immigrants who are documented and undocumented, regardless of their country of origin or level of education.

6). Undocumented immigrants don’t pay taxes and burden the national economy.
Immigrants who are undocumented pay taxes every time they buy taxable goods such as gas, clothes or new appliances (depending on where they reside). They also contribute to property taxes—a main source of school funding—when they buy or rent a house or apartment. A 2017 report from the Institute on Taxation and Economic Policy highlights that undocumented immigrants pay an estimated $11.74 billion in state and local taxes a year. The U.S. Social Security Administration estimated that in 2010 undocumented immigrants—and their employers—paid $13 billion in payroll taxes alone for benefits they will never get.

7). The United States is being overrun by immigrants like never before.
From 1890 to 1910, the foreign-born population of the United States fluctuated between 13.6 and nearly 15 percent; the peak year for admission of new immigrants was 1907, when approximately 1.3 million people entered the country legally. In 2010, about 13 percent of the population was foreign-born.

8). We can stop undocumented immigrants coming to the United States by building a wall along the border with Mexico.
Populations of immigrants who are undocumented increased from Asia, Central America and sub-Saharan Africa. So a wall along the border with Mexico would not “stop” undocumented immigrants from coming to the United States.

9). Banning immigrants and refugees from majority-Muslim countries will protect the United States from terrorists.
A recent executive order, issued by President Donald Trump in March 2017, blocked the entry of citizens from six Muslim-majority countries for 90 days, ostensibly to protect Americans from terrorism. However, between 1975 and 2015, no fatalities have been committed in the United States by foreign-born extremists from the countries covered by the executive order. “Between 1975 and 2015, the annual chance of being murdered by somebody other than a foreign-born terrorist was 252.9 times greater than the chance of dying in a terrorist attack committed by a foreign-born terrorist.”

10). Refugees are not screened before entering the United States.


Nolite te bastardes carborundorum
leonAzul
Posted: Thursday, April 5, 2018 10:49:05 PM

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philips daughter wrote:
The number of migrants in the world is what is unimaginable. With climate change it will only increase.


This is what is mind-numbingly short-sighted and irresponsible about the policies that Der Drumph foments.

Climate change, whether anthropogenic or not, is a natural fact that has periodically had immense consequences on human society, both historically and prehistorically.

Furthermore, in recent history, the inability to accurately track immigration into the USA has had direct consequences on domestic tranquility.

The only sane response is to invite any and all resident aliens to register with the reasonable expectation of a path to full citizenship, if they so choose. This is not the same as a gratuitous offer of no-questions-asked asylum. In fact, it has become abundantly clear that Der Drumph is signally ignorant of just how intense the scrutiny is for current asylum-seekers according to the guidelines and practices of the alleged "Deep State" in the departments of state and justice involved in current immigration enforcement in the USA and in its consulates abroad.

"Make it go away, Mrs Whatsit," he whispered. "Make it go away. It's evil."
FounDit
Posted: Friday, April 6, 2018 11:12:38 AM

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Hope123,
So do you support the idea of them obeying the law and getting in line and applying, or not?

leonAzul,
The issue is not "how intense the scrutiny is for current asylum-seekers", but whether people who show up and the border and cross illegally should be permitted to stay and be given citizenship.

For over 40 years, living here on the border, I have met with and discussed with them, the goals of people who have done exactly that. Most of the Spanish I have learned came from speaking with them.

I have yet to meet anyone who came here as an asylum-seeker. All have said they came for jobs to send money back home to their families in Mexico, El Salvador, Guatemala, or other Central American countries. Those with families tell of horrible things done to them by coyotes. That's why most don't bring women and girls with them. This is anecdotal since it it only my experience, but it is also the experience of many others who live here and have said the same thing, both Anglo and Hispanic. Many of the immigrant families who have traveled here said they did so only because their families had no future at home.

That is a terrible thing to face, but it isn't the job of the US to fix all the problems in the world. In fact, the political Left castigates the U.S. for trying to do just that, then turns around and excoriates us for not doing that with immigrants. They can't have it both ways, though they try.

From my perspective, we fought a war and many died to create the country we have today. If those in other countries are not willing to sacrifice for a better country and life, then I don't see it as our job to make life easier for them. They should stay at home in their own countries and work to make a better life for themselves and their children's future. We're told they are hard-working people, and they are, but if they aren't willing to work for a better country and future, then they don't deserve ours.


We should look to the past to learn from it, not destroy our future because of it — FounDit
Hope123
Posted: Friday, April 6, 2018 2:14:08 PM

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Back to OP about Dreamers - Admitting that there is a problem from the past and the problem has to be fixed in the present is altogether different from preventing it from happening again in the future. Those two issues seem to be confused a lot, and need to be separated!

Those dreamers are there - it is what it is - and asking why should we accommodate THEM is not a solution but only contributes to the problem. Acceptance of reality is crucial in all areas of life.

Leon, is what you call the only sane idea exactly what Obama tried to do with getting those Dreamers to register with the dream of citizenship as an incentive? Many took a chance and trusted the government, hoping there would not be a change in policies.

Therefore, after a law to make changes null and void to a policy protecting those who register and the ensuing registration, Dreamers could then be VETTED and if they pass (failures are deported asap) allowed to start on the long journey on the path to citizenship which may take years, while continuing to contribute to society. What skin is it really off the noses of other Americans if this were to happen? They would not be part of the quotas for future immigration - they are already there. They already have the jobs. They make up a miniscule percentage of the country's population and could easily be assimilated. If the people were assured it would be a separate issue to regular immigration, then people such as Buzzito's relative would be assured it would not affect his/her chances of immigration. A lot of the Dreamers' families would already be there and the rules could be that any family they wish to bring have to wait in queue with no special consideration.

There are solutions for the Dreamers - if you take the politics and money out. There were bi-partisan bills all set to solve the Dreamer problem but politics was allowed to hijack them. In fact a very large percentage of American people are willing to let the Dreamers remain.

The logistics of forcing them to leave only to return in 7 days - a number which is a dream in itself - would create unnecessary chaos, inconvenience for government and people, and a waste of resources. Airlines might like the business. :)

The past is to be respected/acknowledged, not worshipped. It is in our future we will find our greatness. Pierre Trudeau
Hope123
Posted: Friday, April 6, 2018 2:29:50 PM

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Further immigration issues:

A separate issue from Dreamers is prevention to stop the problem from occurring in the present. (In fact the numbers have been decreasing as Mexico's economy has improved.) But pay for them yourself and go ahead and build a wall along BOTH borders if you really think that will correct the problem. And a country's border protection IS its own problem. It is neither Mexico's nor Canada's problem to protect the US borders anymore than it is a US problem to stop people from the US entering Canada illegally. And there have been many recently. Although the border agencies do cooperate.

Why Canadians would want to get to the US illegally (or legally for that matter nowadays) is beyond me but they do try to boat across the Great Lakes more than Americans realize.

BTW - Refugees from war torn countries is a separate issue to this.

How you stop those staying illegally after arriving legally by plane, car, and passenger boat is another problem not addressed by a wall. An idea could be copied from Mexico - anyone arriving legally in Mexico has to give an address there and must also turn in their immigration paper when they LEAVE. A good way to track who is still there.

:::

Related to recent posts but a digression from Dreamers:

Nobody is asking Americans to solve the problems of other countries. That's all in the minds of some Americans. (In fact over the years many countries have wished the US would STOP meddling in their affairs.) People SHOULD stay in their own countries and obey the spirit of the law of all countries - no matter whether they are poor or rich. A rich person using money and power to get around a law is just as culpable as a poor person sneaking in.

People who show up at US borders illegally should NOT be allowed in the same as people showing up illegally at Canadian borders from the US should not be allowed in - nor are they. They are put into Canadian jails and processed.

No country, including America, is responsible for anyone but itself. Nor does any country expect special treatment from America - just fairness. However, it has never been the American way that during trade talks with smaller vulnerable neighbours, they tried to screw them with blackmail, bullying, and the linking of other issues to trade. Those smaller vulnerable neighbors have come to the aid of the US many times during emergencies and have been their friends. You would think that a president who values loyalty would get that, but I guess it has to be personal loyalty to him before he values it.

:::

FD - you mean my criticism of Trump and Knauss could be read as my giving approval to the breaking of laws by anyone? I don't think so. Rich or poor makes no never mind. Rules and laws are made to be kept - not broken. By everyone. Including leaders. After all these years you still think I could be in favour of breaking laws!

:::

A further statement digressing from OP:

Instead of addressing the larger issue of world migration and displaced people because of climate change on this thread about Dreamers, I have started a new thread here with a link so that anyone who wishes to brainstorm and discuss further any solutions or ideas about that intractable problem could do so there.

http://forum.thefreedictionary.com/postsm1035913_Economic-and-Human-Costs-of-Climate-Change---continued-from--Dreamer--thread-.aspx#1035913




The past is to be respected/acknowledged, not worshipped. It is in our future we will find our greatness. Pierre Trudeau
progpen
Posted: Friday, April 6, 2018 4:04:56 PM

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FounDit wrote:
That is a terrible thing to face, but it isn't the job of the US to fix all the problems in the world. In fact, the political Left castigates the U.S. for trying to do just that, then turns around and excoriates us for not doing that with immigrants. They can't have it both ways, though they try.


What does that even mean? How are conservatives trying to fix all of the problems in the world and getting castigated over it?

FounDit wrote:
From my perspective, we fought a war and many died to create the country we have today. If those in other countries are not willing to sacrifice for a better country and life, then I don't see it as our job to make life easier for them. They should stay at home in their own countries and work to make a better life for themselves and their children's future. We're told they are hard-working people, and they are, but if they aren't willing to work for a better country and future, then they don't deserve ours.


And that is exactly what the Native Americans said to your ancestors.

Nolite te bastardes carborundorum
progpen
Posted: Friday, April 6, 2018 4:20:33 PM

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The mass expulsions have been and continue to be theater and have nothing whatsoever to do with immigration, safety, security or the law. The vilification of immigrants is simply more theater, meant to increase political contributions and has absolutely nothing to do with safety or security.

The mass expulsions, the wall, sending National Guard to the border are all political theater that do nothing but help conservative politicians keep their constituency afraid and contributing to their campaigns. They spend tens of billions in taxpayer money (each year) on this political theater and then bitch at the Lefties for spending money.

Nolite te bastardes carborundorum
TL Hobs
Posted: Friday, April 6, 2018 8:07:29 PM

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I have questions for Foundit. What country did your ancestors come from? Why did they leave their homeland? Things get too hot to handle at home? Do you really think a child (DACA) even knows what the laws are and has a choice in coming here illegally or waiting in line like everyone else? Isn't it the Trump who wants to only allow well educated, intelligent, hard working people in lieu of those with family connections?

You seemed confused. Maybe you can sort things out better by contemplating these questions.

Peace, brother.

"When you don't know where you are going, you have to stick together just in case someone gets there." - Ken Kesey
FounDit
Posted: Friday, April 6, 2018 9:34:49 PM

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TL Hobs wrote:
I have questions for Foundit. What country did your ancestors come from?
I have no idea, nor do I care.

Why did they leave their homeland?
I have no idea, nor do I care.

Things get too hot to handle at home?
I have no idea, nor do I care.

Do you really think a child (DACA) even knows what the laws are and has a choice in coming here illegally or waiting in line like everyone else?
I don't what they thought as children, but they certainly are aware of the laws now that they have grown into adulthood, and they do have a choice to apply legally, like everyone else.

Isn't it the Trump who wants to only allow well educated, intelligent, hard working people in lieu of those with family connections?
You'd have to ask him. I'm not a mind reader, but it sounds like a good idea to me.

You seemed confused. Maybe you can sort things out better by contemplating these questions.
Nope. Not confused at all.

And for you and progpen, I had no control or input over what my ancestors did in the early years of the country's formation. I can only have input over what happens today. I don't live in the past, and I don't believe in punishing people for what someone else did in that past. I know that many of the Left want to punish folks for acts that occurred in the past, but we don't punish people for the crimes or mistakes of others. That is just plain wrong, stupid and unjust, and ill-fitted to so-called "Social Justice Warriors". Punishing someone for actions committed by their ancestors is a never-ending chain that goes back to the first humans, and is a ridiculous way to live.

Peace, brother.
Peace to you too, brother.


We should look to the past to learn from it, not destroy our future because of it — FounDit
Hope123
Posted: Friday, April 6, 2018 10:18:43 PM

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FounDit Wrote: I don't (sic) what they thought as children, but they certainly are aware of the laws now that they have grown into adulthood, and they do have a choice to apply legally, like everyone else.

That is BS. After I have let you in on the "secret" of how YOUR immigration system actually works several times, you still spout this nonsense!

And saying you don't believe in punishment for past deeds is BS too when that's exactly what would be done to the Dreamers if they are deported to a country they don't even know. I agree with your statement: "That is just plain wrong, stupid and unjust,..."


The past is to be respected/acknowledged, not worshipped. It is in our future we will find our greatness. Pierre Trudeau
Hope123
Posted: Friday, April 6, 2018 11:27:46 PM

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Location: Burlington, Ontario, Canada
This post is further to the discussion by TL and FD about whether the young intelligent voters would be Republicans or Democrats. (Note the date on the article.)

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/monkey-cage/wp/2016/03/11/its-not-just-trump-authoritarian-populism-is-rising-across-the-west-heres-why/?utm_term=.12c155534d98

Why did populist authoritarianism around the world and leaders such as Trump rise? It was not just a backlash against immigration, although that was a major part in Brexit, Europe, and the US as this thread shows. In the US right after the election it was supposed to be about the economy for certain groups who felt left behind. Yet in the US Trump did not get the majority of the vote of poorer folks.

Paraphrased from article on above link: It was a cultural backlash against ongoing social changes created by a shift of the younger and better educated generation who support LGBT rights, same sex marriage, diversity, less religion, and support for global agencies. It is the older, less educated who feared being left behind and fear change. End paraphrase.

And that fear is stoked every day by Trump on Twitter. Fear the media, fear the establishment, fear the justice departments, fear anyone who is different from you in any way, castigate the students who lived through the horror of a mass shooting, call the young snowflakes as they try to mature... Let's go back to the way things were 70 years ago, because of course, in nostalgic memory, those were the "good ole days".

I always said it was the bathroom bill that was the final straw.

Could their youth as well as immigration status be why the Dreamers are being targeted?


The past is to be respected/acknowledged, not worshipped. It is in our future we will find our greatness. Pierre Trudeau
progpen
Posted: Saturday, April 7, 2018 8:13:50 AM

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Seems like the the answer to immigration in the US is:

I don't know, and I don't care. I got mine, now f-off everyone else.

It's about spending billions of taxpayer money on an industry built by conservatives that accomplishes nothing but the transfer of wealth from the lower and middle class to the upper class. Spending money to remove people who are paying taxes and performing services that native born Americans will not do (taxpayers get to pay twice for that). Building walls that don't work, sending the military to the border to shoot rabbits and putting up cameras, motion sensors and barbed wire to keep wildlife from their regular migratory paths. All on the taxpayer dime.

Nolite te bastardes carborundorum
FounDit
Posted: Saturday, April 7, 2018 11:11:15 AM

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Hope123 wrote:
FounDit Wrote: I don't (sic) what they thought as children, but they certainly are aware of the laws now that they have grown into adulthood, and they do have a choice to apply legally, like everyone else.

That is BS. After I have let you in on the "secret" of how YOUR immigration system actually works several times, you still spout this nonsense!
So you're saying they aren't intelligent enough to know they can apply for citizenship? Hmm...that's a pretty condemning statement and very judgmental on your part.

It tickles me that you think to school me on our immigration system, especially for a group of people who were illegally given status by Obama. But I suppose that's why you are so enamored of them. You have said how much you adore Obama in past posts. The reality, however, is that since you are not a citizen of our country, you don't get a say in the matter, so your opinion is irrelevant and carries no value.

And saying you don't believe in punishment for past deeds is BS too when that's exactly what would be done to the Dreamers if they are deported to a country they don't even know. I agree with your statement: "That is just plain wrong, stupid and unjust,..."


progpen wrote:

Seems like the the answer to immigration in the US is:

I don't know, and I don't care. I got mine, now f-off everyone else.


That might be the interpretation of someone who is very ignorant on the topic, but the reality is that over one million people are admitted to the US every year through a legal process. Apparently, you are unaware of that process, so it would be helpful if you were to educate yourself on the topic. But it's a lot more fun to spew hate, isn't it?



We should look to the past to learn from it, not destroy our future because of it — FounDit
progpen
Posted: Saturday, April 7, 2018 11:36:03 AM

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It is actually kinda cute to watch people twist themselves in knots trying to sound selfless, fiscally responsible and logical all while insisting that other people spend billions of other people's (taxpayer) money to force other taxpayers out of the country because of incorrect information that they only repeat because they have nothing else to back up their belief system.

Nolite te bastardes carborundorum
Hope123
Posted: Saturday, April 7, 2018 1:34:49 PM

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FD, why can't you for once just admit you are wrong? Dreamers CANNOT JUST APPLY FOR CITIZENSHIP! There is no way they can get a green card without a change in the law. You want them to follow the laws? Well they are.

http://minnesota.cbslocal.com/2017/09/05/gq-dreamers-citizenship/

My admiration for Obama does not affect that the above is a FACT.


The past is to be respected/acknowledged, not worshipped. It is in our future we will find our greatness. Pierre Trudeau
Hope123
Posted: Saturday, April 7, 2018 1:38:42 PM

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Addendum to above post -

Obama was the best president you've had in many years. Yes he made mistakes. He's human. But he listened and learned and cared and became better. Something your current guy is incapable of doing. Obama accomplished a lot in spite of rigorous opposition and no cooperation so he had to resort to the very presidential decrees that I don't hear you complaining about with Trump's numbers of them. Obama accomplished a lot in spite of the financial crisis where the US was almost bankrupt, the stupid wars, and other messes he had to clean up. He actually gave the USA a better reputation in the world.

You and your ilk helped to put in a cowboy congressman who stupidly and unsafely brandishes a loaded gun at a constituency meeting, an EPA head who spent millions of dollars on travel and security, including 3 million just to take 30 security agents to Disneyland and the Rose Bowl Parade, and a scaredy-cat president who spends taxpayer money like it's going out of style, reacts impulsively to every criticism, and spends most of his time at rallies, golfing, watching TV, and tweeting.

And some Americans hide behind blind nationalistic fervour.

Good thinking on your part. The world is now laughing at the USA that is so far behind the rest of the world in many many areas and ideas and going deeper with the administration right now. A trade war with China? Angering Mexico? Nieto loved it Whistle that T sent troops to the Mexico border when the rate is the lowest ever. (Hope these guys are in good shape when they have a couple of miles each to cover.) Calling NK's leader "Rocket Man", and poking Iran. Not exactly the best ways to get other countries to cooperate. I'm not making accusations, but I've read some who believe Trump is manipulating the stock market for the benefit of his family and cronies with the trade war he's starting.

You are correct. My opinion holds no weight in the US (so glad not to be American right now) but it does in the world court of opinion about the USA and is much in line with how the rest of the world is watching a great nation intent upon becoming a train wreck.

The past is to be respected/acknowledged, not worshipped. It is in our future we will find our greatness. Pierre Trudeau
FounDit
Posted: Tuesday, April 10, 2018 5:15:23 PM

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Hope123 wrote:
FD, why can't you for once just admit you are wrong? Dreamers CANNOT JUST APPLY FOR CITIZENSHIP! There is no way they can get a green card without a change in the law. You want them to follow the laws? Well they are.

http://minnesota.cbslocal.com/2017/09/05/gq-dreamers-citizenship/

My admiration for Obama does not affect that the above is a FACT.

I know they can't apply for citizenship. Isn't that great!? I think so, because they shouldn't be here in the first place.

However, you miss the point I was trying to make to the OP, Professor. I am not saying we should ship them out of the country, but that a pathway should be provided for them to apply for citizenship. And as I stated earlier, "they should not be given favored treatment over all the others who have applied in proper fashion." The legislature could create a law that would permit them, and only them, to apply for green cards and from that, the rest follows:

US Citizenship path--Be a green card holder of at least 5 years, and you must
Be 18 or older at the time of filing.
Be a green card holder for at least 5 years immediately preceding the date of filing the Form N-400, Application for Naturalization.

As for your following post, I see nothing there worthy of a response.


We should look to the past to learn from it, not destroy our future because of it — FounDit
Hope123
Posted: Tuesday, April 10, 2018 6:31:17 PM

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Exactly, FD.

I didn't miss the point. I was only objecting to the repetition of your assertion that they can "simply" apply for citizenship when they cannot.

BTW - from what I gather we actually have similar views about immigration. The only leniency I think is permissible is with this special case of these Dreamers as long as there are specific regulations set up for them as a one off. Every country needs to protect its borders and illegals should be processed, deported, and made to wait their turn. All immigrants and refugees need to be thoroughly vetted, which Canada does quite well. In fact, unlike the US, Canada wisely picks and chooses the best of the wannabe immigrants - those who will contribute to our society and economy.

And - when illegals cross the border into Canada from the US, if I were doing it, I would send them back right then, instead of putting them into jail, processing them, and then giving refugee status or deporting them - all at taxpayer expense. There is not supposed to be any refugee status when they were in the States (and vice versa) - agreed by the two countries. My sympathy gives me one concern with turning them back - when they arrive walking in winter with frost bitten limbs - again taxing our already burdened health care system with amputations etc., but to turn them back then would not be humanitarian. However, unlike my hard line, Canada's policy is to process them first.

No response to my second post was needed or expected, as I was just responding to your comments about my respect for Obama having anything to do with my opinion about Dreamers. It doesn't. Also, the only way the opinion about America around the world is of any value to the US is in knowing about the tourism loss of 4.6 billion dollars and 40,000 jobs in 2017.

The past is to be respected/acknowledged, not worshipped. It is in our future we will find our greatness. Pierre Trudeau
progpen
Posted: Tuesday, April 10, 2018 9:17:41 PM

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Just follow the legal path to citizenship...huh, oh there is no legal path? Oh well. We tried. Immigration is hard.

Nolite te bastardes carborundorum
FounDit
Posted: Wednesday, April 11, 2018 1:59:20 PM

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progpen wrote:
Just follow the legal path to citizenship...huh, oh there is no legal path? Oh well. We tried. Immigration is hard.


(Said in a plaintive, whinny voice)
Yes, it is! After living under terrible conditions in our own countries, and traveling, often by foot, through hostile territories, being abused by coyotes through theft and rape, hiding in sweat-box trailers, riding on tops of trains, crossing the river at the border, and NOW we have to obey the law and fill out papers!!?? !Es tan mucho!


We should look to the past to learn from it, not destroy our future because of it — FounDit
philips daughter
Posted: Wednesday, April 11, 2018 6:33:13 PM

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This is about DACA, we aren’t talking about people coming into this country presently. This is about people who were children when they came. They grew up here. And yes to be eligible for DACA they did sign all the papers. You have changed the topic. This is only about DACA.
Hope123
Posted: Thursday, April 12, 2018 10:57:44 AM

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Agree, Philip's Daughter. Back to just filling out papers again? The issues of immigration and especially DACA are complex and not as simple and black and white as academic discussions often make them. Although if the WH had not torpedoed the bipartisan bills 80% of Americans want, the DACA issue could have been settled long ago.

::::

For anyone interested - Digression from OP but on the related topic of Immigration - I was checking to see an estimate of how many illegals we have in Canada and saw this link. I don't know enough to compare policies between countries but although our border is not as porous, according to an Oregon woman in 2014 we have fewer problems because of our immigration laws including for seasonal workers. I do know we vet all entrants for their ability to fit into our society and contribute to our economy and understand the US thinks this is discrimination. Anyhow, if interested, check it out. BTW - NOT promoting immigration to Canada! lol

http://www.oregonlive.com/opinion/index.ssf/2014/07/us_should_copy_canadas_immigra.html

:: Hey Professor - where are you? Did you get anything of value for your topic?





The past is to be respected/acknowledged, not worshipped. It is in our future we will find our greatness. Pierre Trudeau
Hope123
Posted: Thursday, April 12, 2018 11:01:26 AM

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Just to give perspective of her views on above link: Just like most Americans, I desperately want the laws of our nation to be respected. I want law and order to prevail. I also want all citizens to have reason to believe we will be rewarded if we follow the rules and respect the law. This is why it is so important to pass effective immigration reform immediately.

Currently, there is virtually no way for a Mexican or Central American citizen to legally enter the United States. At the same time, our economy depends on the labor of immigrants. Currently, we have close to 12 million illegal aliens living in our communities. Other than offenses related to their residency status, they are law-abiding, work hard and are productive members of our society. The problem is there is no legal way to resolve their residency status. For new immigrants, the only way to escape the crises they face at home is to break the law.

Meanwhile, Canada has found a way to allow substantial numbers of immigrants into their country. The rules are strict, but the system works. Therefore, immigrants are motivated to follow the law and enter the country legally. The Canadian economy benefits by having a steady flow of labor that is functioning within the law.


The past is to be respected/acknowledged, not worshipped. It is in our future we will find our greatness. Pierre Trudeau
progpen
Posted: Thursday, April 12, 2018 8:05:44 PM

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Since we are back on topic now.
Debunked myths about DACA

Myth: DACA recipients can just become citizens
"DACA doesn't give me a path to citizenship; it just allows me a work permit." Indeed, Obama himself noted when the program was announced five years ago, "Let's be clear — this is not amnesty, this is not immunity, this is not a path to citizenship."

Myth: DACA allows immigrants brought to the U.S. as children to stay indefinitely
DACA requirements are narrow and specific. Only certain immigrants could apply: those who had live in the U.S. since 2007, who came before age 16 and who were younger than 31 on June 15th, 2012. An estimated 1.7 million people were eligible, and fewer than half – about 800,000 – registered for the program. Once they're registered, recipients must apply to renew their DACA status – which, again, only grants them eligibility to work in the U.S. legally – every two years.

Myth: DACA recipients "put our nation at risk of crime, violence and even terrorism," as Sessions said this week
In fact, anyone who has been convicted of a felony, a significant misdemeanor or multiple misdemeanors is automatically ineligible for DACA, as is anyone who poses "a threat to public safety or national security."

Myth: DACA gives undocumented immigrants access to federal benefits
"DACA recipients and undocumented people still have to sign up for selective service if they're men between the ages of 18 and 25, even though we're not allowed to join the service to gain citizenship," Silva says. "We still can't get any federal financial aid for college, you can't receive any type of federal benefits, you still can get student loans – anything that is federal, you cannot obtain. We still can't apply for Obamacare."

Nolite te bastardes carborundorum
FounDit
Posted: Thursday, April 12, 2018 8:53:08 PM

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philips daughter wrote:
This is about DACA, we aren’t talking about people coming into this country presently. This is about people who were children when they came. They grew up here. And yes to be eligible for DACA they did sign all the papers. You have changed the topic. This is only about DACA.


Nooo, I didn't. progpen said immigration was hard, not DACA. I said nothing about DACA being hard. In fact, it seems easy to me, but you have to want to solve the problem, and too many really don't want to solve it. It makes for too good political theater. It's the same with so many issues.

Hope123 wrote:

Agree, Philip's Daughter. Back to just filling out papers again? The issues of immigration and especially DACA are complex and not as simple and black and white as academic discussions often make them.

I thought I made it quite clear: The legislature could create a law that would allow them to apply for citizenship. But to do that (apply) they would have to have obeyed the laws of the US, i.e., no felonies, no killing citizens with guns, machetes, drugs, DUI, no rape, no child abuse/child porn, etc. and after 5 years, do the paperwork.



We should look to the past to learn from it, not destroy our future because of it — FounDit
Hope123
Posted: Thursday, April 12, 2018 10:19:20 PM

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Proggy, thanks for the actual rule clarification.

Hope123 wrote: Dreamers could then be VETTED and if they pass (failures are deported asap) allowed to start on the long journey on the path to citizenship... Vetting would surely mean no criminal activity of any kind, including that long list spelled out that ANY American should refrain from doing.

FD you were clear till the last rant about whinny :) voices (a funny typo).

But the operative word is always "could". The legislature could create a law that would allow them to apply for citizenship.

That is ALL anyone has been asking for. I agree with the political theatre bit. My own government is doing that more and more and it is disturbing.

I'm kind of disappointed that no one mentioned looking at the link and that maybe the woman from Oregon might have some good ideas for the US to consider.

The past is to be respected/acknowledged, not worshipped. It is in our future we will find our greatness. Pierre Trudeau
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