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will
Posted: Saturday, March 31, 2018 10:54:20 AM
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Considering Jesus knew (Matthew 20:21, for example) that he would be resurrected after a few days, and returned to His exalted position of Lord over everything, for all eternity… can Christ’s crucifixion really be considered a ‘sacrifice’?

Sure, it would have been an unpleasant few days, but considering Jesus (by his own account, John 10:30 et al.) is God Himself – omnipotent, omnipresent and omniscient – those few days would have been a blink of an eye and nothing compared to the suffering so many of His subjects, through no fault of their own, endure every day; being a victim of the high infant mortality rates in Christ’s time was forever; mere mortals don’t get to have a little rest for three days before hitting the reset button for a straight pass into paradise.

Surely the real hero in the Easter myth is Judas. It was Judas who played the vital role that enabled Jesus to complete the prophecy, which He already knew would happen...being omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient and all that.

Depending on which flavour of Christianity one chooses to believe, it was Judas who either returned the 30 pieces of silver before hanging himself, or who bought a field and fell over in it causing all his bowels to gush out, or who got fat and was crushed by a chariot… causing his bowels to gush out. Either way he met a truly sorry end, for eternity.

Judas was the ultimate scapegoat, despised and vilified, condemned to an eternity of suffering, but without his sacrifice mankind would not have been saved (at least in the manner foretold by Jesus)

In my opinion, Jesus comes out of the Easter myth looking like a privileged prince who expects the adulation of his subjects, just because he gave up his weekend to convince the malevolent king not to escalate his tyrannical rule.

And what are the chocolate eggs all about?



whatson
Posted: Saturday, March 31, 2018 2:29:30 PM
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*
No! No! No! will, you're mistaken. We don't know what Task Jesus
was charged with, and how He was supposed to be rewarded upon accomplishing
the Mission, but it's obvious that something went Unrectifiably Wrong. That's
when the Father turned His back on the Project, leaving the Son to exclaim:
"Father, why have you forsaken me?" That's how the latter became a Sacrifice.

What puzzles me, though, is why the Father didn't repeat the Flood-trick if
He became dissatisfied with Adam-and- Eve-kind anew. Could it be that now
there existed more than one family that behaved in an acceptable manner?
Maybe God saw in the distant future (after the waters will have subsided
and years and years passed), that in The Core-North-American-States,
in every Blessed State an artificial Ark will have been built to commemorate
the fifty Second-Flood Arks, which will have been detrimental
to the uniqueness of the Hamm-Ark.

It seems, the Greatest Story hasn't been Told completely yet, we must
wait for an Additionally Begotten Child (it could be a Daughter) to come
and recount all that really happened in the New Testament Debacle.
*
Helenej
Posted: Saturday, March 31, 2018 4:31:09 PM

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whatson wrote:
What puzzles me, though, is why the Father didn't repeat the Flood-trick if He became dissatisfied with Adam-and- Eve-kind anew.

Because the Flood didn’t work. God saved the most righteous people to only end up having, in the long run, the same mixture of very few righteous and the majority of unrighteous ones, just as before the Flood. What puzzles me, though, is that He, who knows what will happen, couldn’t predict the result.
jacobusmaximus
Posted: Sunday, April 1, 2018 2:44:26 AM

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For reasons that will be obvious, I am not casting any pearls here.

I remember, therefore I am.
Helenej
Posted: Sunday, April 1, 2018 3:33:07 AM

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jacobusmaximus wrote:
For reasons that will be obvious, I am not casting any pearls here.

It’s a public forum, Jacobus, so it's quite natural there are some "swines" here. However, there are also lots of those who are eager to listen to the truth that you probably know about God’s attempts to improve the human race. Anyway, if you are a really righteous Christian, you must obey what Jesus once said, “Whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing” (John 14:12).
jacobusmaximus
Posted: Sunday, April 1, 2018 4:15:21 PM

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Helenej wrote:
jacobusmaximus wrote:
For reasons that will be obvious, I am not casting any pearls here.

It’s a public forum, Jacobus, so it's quite natural there are some "swines" here. However, there are also lots of those who are eager to listen to the truth that you probably know about God’s attempts to improve the human race. Anyway, if you are a really righteous Christian, you must obey what Jesus once said, “Whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing” (John 14:12).


For 'must', read 'will', Helene.

I remember, therefore I am.
Epiphileon
Posted: Monday, April 2, 2018 4:32:10 AM

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Quote:
Considering Jesus knew (Matthew 20:21, for example) that he would be resurrected after a few days, and returned to His exalted position of Lord over everything, for all eternity… can Christ’s crucifixion really be considered a ‘sacrifice’?


Within the framework of the belief set, yes absolutely it can. Will even though I consider Biblical religions to be just as much a creation of the coevolution of mind and culture as any other beliefs in supernatural activity in the human experience, if you accept the foundational premises of the belief, then the rest of it is pretty much logically consistent.

Experiencing death on the cross was only the culmination of the sacrifice, and the necessary blood offering for the atonement of human sinfulness*, consider the level of sacrifice it would be, to be a deity as described in the Bible, and to take on existence as a human, even a human with some magical powers, that would be an incredible sacrifice in itself. Christianity is largely internally consistent.

*One of the very questionable first principles.

Question authority. How do you know, that you know, what you know?
BobShilling
Posted: Monday, April 2, 2018 4:41:50 AM
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Epiphileon wrote:
Christianity is largely internally consistent.


It does seem to be a little strange that an all-knowing, all-powerful deity should send his son (= himself) to a backward part of an empire in one part of the world to sacrifice him(self) for the whole of mankind.
leonAzul
Posted: Monday, April 2, 2018 9:41:28 AM

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Epiphileon wrote:
[quote]
Experiencing death on the cross was only the culmination of the sacrifice, and the necessary blood offering for the atonement of human sinfulness*, consider the level of sacrifice it would be, to be a deity as described in the Bible, and to take on existence as a human, even a human with some magical powers, that would be an incredible sacrifice in itself. Christianity is largely internally consistent.

*One of the very questionable first principles.


Actually, this is one of the more reasonable axioms of the Roman Church: that humans are flawed ab ovum, which has been given the rather unfortunate label of "Original Sin", and that we need education to become reasonable, both individually and collectively as a society.

In fact, if one were to be honest about it, this is a fundamental tenet of science and scientific thinking: any one of us could be, and more often than not are, mistaken, whenever we use our brains without proper education about arithmetic, mathematics, and the difference between raw empiricism and scientifically guided experience.

"Make it go away, Mrs Whatsit," he whispered. "Make it go away. It's evil."
will
Posted: Monday, April 2, 2018 9:46:14 AM
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jacobusmaximus wrote:
For reasons that will be obvious, I am not casting any pearls here.

Ah, the enduring appeal of Faith, the luxury of simply asserting that one’s personal truths are pearls of wisdom, untarnished by the burden of evidence and above the incredulity of ignorant pigs such as myself. Eh?

Helenej wrote:
God saved the most righteous people to only end up having, in the long run, the same mixture of very few righteous and the majority of unrighteous ones, just as before the Flood. What puzzles me, though, is that He, who knows what will happen, couldn’t predict the result.

A common mantra of the Christian apologist is that without evil in the world we would have nothing to measure good against; but this cuts both ways. It could just as well be argued that God (whomever he or she is) is actually a malevolent being and the world is supposed to be full of evil – with some good thrown in to measure the evil against. This would certainly explain the arbitrary nature of suffering – infant mortality, whole communities buried under mudslides, or even global floods (if one suspends all logic and reason and accepts such nonsense). An evil creation would certainly explain large parts of the Old Testament. An evil creation definitely makes more sense than believing that malaria, currently killing 3000 African children daily, is an acceptable consequence of a benevolent omnipotent, omnipresent and omniscient God successfully tempting His first created humans with a talking snake.

Perhaps (this omnipotent, omnipresent and omniscient) God’s repeated attempts to fine tune His creation is to keep humanity’s propensity for good in check. It’s a credit to humanity, and cause for great pride and celebration, that good deeds, love and respect are generally the default position, but life is still pretty insufferable for vast numbers of our species and personal beliefs do little, if anything, to alleviate that.

Of course, what makes most sense is that there are no gods, nothing supernatural and no afterlife of eternal salvation, or suffering, depending on one’s adherence to specific sets of contradictory beliefs and practices… but apparently large numbers of humanity still find empiricism incompatible with their egos and fear of their own mortality.

Epiphileon wrote:
if you accept the foundational premises of the belief, then the rest of it is pretty much logically consistent.

If you simply accept foundational premises without question, then any position could be made to look consistent. But logic and reason must always, by definition, be based on a sound premise. So, yes, it could be argued that the Bible is internally consistent – though it really isn’t – but, being founded on flawed premises, it certainly is not logically consistent.

In truth, as I’m not fluent in ancient Hebrew, Aramaic or Greek, I have no genuine way of knowing if God’s word (assuming it is God’s word at all) was consistent, logically or otherwise… and the same is true of absolutely everyone else on this forum, or indeed anyone alive. All we have is subsequent editing, translation and personal interpretation by mere mortals; the result is, in my humble opinion, neither logical nor consistent.

But thank you for wallowing in the mud and pig shit with me and at least attempting to offer a reasoned explanation... very Christian of you Angel


.
Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Monday, April 2, 2018 1:02:11 PM

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Yeah . . . Happy Eostre!





Wyrd bið ful aræd - bull!
Lotje1000
Posted: Tuesday, April 3, 2018 2:49:21 AM

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will wrote:

But thank you for wallowing in the mud and pig shit with me and at least attempting to offer a reasoned explanation... very Christian of you Angel


Don't feel too bad, Will. Pigs are actually highly intelligent creatures. As for pearls? They're grown when a mollusk encounters an irritant in its shell, like a parasite. In order to deal with the irritant, they form a pearl sac around it which secretes layers that envelop the irritant - thus forming a pearl. Feeling cheeky, I'd say it's a rather apt metaphor for religion, really. A defense mechanism against an irritant you can't get rid of, so you grow a pretty layer around it.
Epiphileon
Posted: Tuesday, April 3, 2018 12:17:11 PM

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Drag0nspeaker wrote:
Yeah . . . Happy Eostre!





I didn't know there was a druid Barbie!


Question authority. How do you know, that you know, what you know?
Epiphileon
Posted: Tuesday, April 3, 2018 12:24:57 PM

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LeonAzul wrote:
Actually, this is one of the more reasonable axioms of the Roman Church: that humans are flawed ab ovum, which has been given the rather unfortunate label of "Original Sin", and that we need education to become reasonable, both individually and collectively as a society.


Oh I agree Leon, the questionable premise is that the God of agape and grace would require a blood sacrifice to forgive a grievance.

Question authority. How do you know, that you know, what you know?
Helenej
Posted: Tuesday, April 3, 2018 2:41:19 PM

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leonAzul wrote:
This is one of the more reasonable axioms of the Roman Church: that humans are flawed ab ovum, which has been given the rather unfortunate label of "Original Sin".

I wonder why God created people with such a poor resistance to sin. To keep himself busy having to make floods, burning down cities, destroying peoples, armies and individuals?
jacobusmaximus
Posted: Wednesday, April 4, 2018 4:20:00 AM

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It should be recognised that pigs have the good sense not to swallow what they are unable to digest. They do, however, tend to trample on what might be of value to others.

I remember, therefore I am.
Lotje1000
Posted: Wednesday, April 4, 2018 5:05:45 AM

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jacobusmaximus wrote:
They do, however, tend to trample on what might be of value to others.


In that sense, they're no different from people.
jacobusmaximus
Posted: Wednesday, April 4, 2018 5:39:41 AM

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Lotje1000 wrote:
jacobusmaximus wrote:
They do, however, tend to trample on what might be of value to others.


In that sense, they're no different from people.




Quite so, and some people are no different from them.

I remember, therefore I am.
FounDit
Posted: Wednesday, April 4, 2018 4:08:37 PM

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Drag0nspeaker wrote:
Yeah . . . Happy Eostre!

If I were twelve inches tall and made of vinyl, this Eostre might make me really happy...Dancing

Epiphileon's comment on human sinfulness being "*One of the very questionable first principles." brought to mind some thoughts I was pondering a few days ago (without comparing anyone to pigs).

It concerned what we call "sin" or "evil". We throw those words around a great deal without ever really defining what we mean by them. It occurred to me that the true definition of both is simply "selfishness", the desire to put one's wants, wishes and desires above some instruction to not do so. Lucifer's sin was allegedly that he wanted to elevate himself above his position.

Eve desired the fruit because she thought it was pleasing to the eye and something to make a person wise. So she put her desires above the instruction not to eat. Adam ate because his desire was for Eve over the instruction to not eat (and so it goes even until today -- women desire things, men gather things to get women...*ahem*).

It therefore follows that since all humans are born totally selfish (a characteristic of the self-preservation instinct), we could logically be said to be born into sin.

But then, according to the Bible, it was God who set up the conditions, leaving innocents in the company of one He knew to be a liar and a deceiver. When the children are tricked and deceived, he punishes them along with the deceiver. That is a rather strange behavior. Even we flawed humans don't punish the victims crimes, of those who deceive us, we punish the deceiver.

But to proceed, we are told God designed a plan to save us all, a plan formed from the foundations of the world. A pure sacrifice that would allow all who believed to find life eternal once He condemned us all to death for being deceived.

But then we run into a paradox. If we desire life, and all of us do, then we are being selfish, thinking only of our own well-being. Yet we are told that this is the sole purpose, that whosover should believe, should not perish, but have eternal life. So it then becomes a sin to want to live, to want to find life eternal because that could be said to be thinking of self. But then we are told to think of self and to want to live, but that would be selfish and sin, and...Hmmm...Think

Anyway, just my weird way of looking at it. Remain calm and carry on.







A great many people will think they are thinking when they are merely rearranging their prejudices. ~ William James ~
Eoin Riedy
Posted: Thursday, April 5, 2018 2:06:27 AM

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If any man be devout and love God, let him enjoy this fair and radiant triumphal feast. If any man be a wise servant, let him rejoicing enter into the joy of his Lord. If any have labored long in fasting, let him now receive his recompense. If any have wrought from the first hour, let him today receive his just reward. If any have come at the third hour, let him with thankfulness keep the feast. If any have arrived at the sixth hour, let him have no misgivings; because he shall in nowise be deprived thereof. If any have delayed until the ninth hour, let him draw near, fearing nothing. If any have tarried even until the eleventh hour, let him, also, be not alarmed at his tardiness; for the Lord, who is jealous of his honor, will accept the last even as the first; he gives rest unto him who comes at the eleventh hour, even as unto him who has wrought from the first hour.

And he shows mercy upon the last, and cares for the first; and to the one he gives, and upon the other he bestows gifts. And he both accepts the deeds, and welcomes the intention, and honors the acts and praises the offering. Wherefore, enter you all into the joy of your Lord; and receive your reward, both the first, and likewise the second. You rich and poor together, hold high festival. You sober and you heedless, honor the day. Rejoice today, both you who have fasted and you who have disregarded the fast. The table is full-laden; feast ye all sumptuously. The calf is fatted; let no one go hungry away.

Enjoy ye all the feast of faith: Receive ye all the riches of loving-kindness. let no one bewail his poverty, for the universal kingdom has been revealed. Let no one weep for his iniquities, for pardon has shown forth from the grave. Let no one fear death, for the Savior’s death has set us free. He that was held prisoner of it has annihilated it. By descending into Hell, He made Hell captive. He embittered it when it tasted of His flesh. And Isaiah, foretelling this, did cry: Hell, said he, was embittered, when it encountered Thee in the lower regions. It was embittered, for it was abolished. It was embittered, for it was mocked. It was embittered, for it was slain. It was embittered, for it was overthrown. It was embittered, for it was fettered in chains. It took a body, and met God face to face. It took earth, and encountered Heaven. It took that which was seen, and fell upon the unseen.

O Death, where is your sting? O Hell, where is your victory? Christ is risen, and you are overthrown. Christ is risen, and the demons are fallen. Christ is risen, and the angels rejoice. Christ is risen, and life reigns. Christ is risen, and not one dead remains in the grave. For Christ, being risen from the dead, is become the first fruits of those who have fallen asleep. To Him be glory and dominion unto ages of ages. Amen.


- John Chrysostom

Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Tuesday, April 17, 2018 5:09:09 AM

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John Chrysostom wrote:
Wherefore, enter you all into the joy of your Lord; and receive your reward, both the first, and likewise the second. You rich and poor together, hold high festival. You sober and you heedless, honor the day. Rejoice today, both you who have fasted and you who have disregarded the fast. The table is full-laden; feast ye all sumptuously. The calf is fatted; let no one go hungry away. . ..
Let no one weep for his iniquities, for pardon has shown forth from the grave.

Oh good!
So I don't have to be good! I can be drunk, disregard fasting-days, and be as iniquitous as I like.
Yippee!


Wyrd bið ful aræd - bull!
pedro
Posted: Thursday, May 3, 2018 4:42:34 AM

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I can't imagine an eternity without bowels.

All good ideas arrive by chance- Max Ernst
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