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(A noun complement Vs. An adjective complement) Options
A cooperator
Posted: Friday, January 12, 2018 7:33:06 PM

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Hi Everyone!
As far as I know:
A noun complement( What can follow a noun?)
An adjective complement(What can follow an adjective)

My questions are:

Firstly:
'installed' and 'a lair' are noun complements in these sentence below in order:
Is it a program I need to have/get installed?
Are you calling me a lair?

Secondly: I read somewhere:
Quote:
A noun clause(but not a noun) can be an adjective complement:
Everybody is sad that Billy drowned.


As long as it is said "A noun clause(but not a noun) can be an adjective complement", you think that 'noun' cannot be an adjective complement(a noun cannot follow an adjective).
However, "This is green grass.". Is 'grass' here not an adjective complement as long as it follows the adjective 'sad'? Yes. I agree with you that 'a green grass' is an adjective phrase. However, the noun 'grass' should be called an adjective complement' as long as follow an adjective.
If I was wrong, then why "that Billy drowned" would be considered an adjective complement, but 'grass' wouldn't? I think both 'that Billy drowned" and 'grass' follow an adjective.








Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
Fyfardens
Posted: Friday, January 12, 2018 7:51:49 PM
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Brick wall

I speak British English (standard southern, slightly dated).
A cooperator
Posted: Friday, January 12, 2018 9:48:07 PM

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Fyfardens wrote:
Brick wall


Could you please kindly let other reply to me if you're not interested in?


Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
A cooperator
Posted: Saturday, January 13, 2018 7:26:49 AM

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The intended meaning is I know many nouns and adjectives can be followed by a nonu clause, such as
I admire your belief that your are always right. . Here the noun cluase is a noun complement.
Thus, why that writer said
A noun clause(but not a noun) can be an adjective complement:
Everybody is sad that Billy drowned.

Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
Audiendus
Posted: Saturday, January 13, 2018 8:37:06 AM
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A cooperator wrote:
As long as it is said "A noun clause(but not a noun) can be an adjective complement", you think that 'noun' cannot be an adjective complement(a noun cannot follow an adjective).

That is right. For example, we cannot say: "Everybody is sad Billy's death".

A cooperator wrote:
However, "This is green grass.". Is 'grass' here not an adjective complement as long as it follows the adjective 'sad'?

No - this is a different construction. In the first example, the basic sentence is "Everybody is sad", and "that Billy drowned" is additional information (it says what everybody is sad about). In the second example, however, the basic sentence is "This is grass" (not "This is green"), and "green" is additional information. "Grass" is part of the basic idea, not a complement to it.
A cooperator
Posted: Saturday, January 13, 2018 9:18:11 AM

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Audiendus wrote:
A cooperator wrote:
As long as it is said "A noun clause(but not a noun) can be an adjective complement", you think that 'noun' cannot be an adjective complement(a noun cannot follow an adjective).

That is right. For example, we cannot say: "Everybody is sad Billy's death".


Thanks a lot,
Audiendus,
Firstly: but do you think in yours, 'Billy's death' is only a noun?

I was expecting that saying "a noun clause(but not a noun) can be an adjective complement" means a noun clause cannot follow nouns. However, I know many nouns and adjectives can be followed by a noun clause, such as
I admire your belief that you are always right. . (Here the noun clause is a noun complement).


Secondly: you think a noun clause can be an object complement, could you give an example where "the object is a pronoun", and the noun clause is an object complement?


Thirdly:you think many nouns and adjectives can be followed by a relative clause? In your example below in other thread, you used a personal pronoun followed by a relative clause.
I consider her a trustworthy person.
I consider her a person who is trustworthy. [object complement]

Finally:
You think "a noun complement" and "an object complement" as in the underlined ones are interchangeable terms?
Is it a program I need to have/get installed.
Are you calling me a liar?
I admire your belief that you are always right.


Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
Audiendus
Posted: Saturday, January 13, 2018 9:37:56 AM
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A cooperator wrote:
Audiendus wrote:
A cooperator wrote:
As long as it is said "A noun clause(but not a noun) can be an adjective complement", you think that 'noun' cannot be an adjective complement(a noun cannot follow an adjective).

That is right. For example, we cannot say: "Everybody is sad Billy's death".

Thanks a lot,
Audiendus,
Firstly: but do you think in yours, Billy's death is only a noun?

I was expecting that saying "a noun clause(but not a noun) can be an adjective complement" means a noun clause cannot follow nouns. However, I know many nouns and adjectives can be followed by a noun clause, such as
I admire your belief that you are always right. . (Here the noun clause is a noun complement).

In my example, "Billy's death" is a noun phrase, so it acts like a noun. It is not a noun clause, as it contains no verb.

The same applies to just a noun. For example, we cannot say: "Everybody is sad Billy" or "Everybody is sad the tragedy".
Audiendus
Posted: Saturday, January 13, 2018 10:18:30 AM
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A cooperator wrote:
Secondly: you think a noun clause can be an object complement, could you give an example where "the object is a pronoun", and the noun clause is an object complement?

No, I cannot. Such a construction would be very odd.

A cooperator wrote:
Thirdly:you think many nouns and adjectives can be followed by a relative clause? In your example below in other thread, you used a personal pronoun followed by a relative clause.
I consider her a trustworthy person.
I consider her a person who is trustworthy. [object complement]

Yes, this construction can be used wherever it makes sense.

A cooperator wrote:
Finally:
You think "a noun complement" and "an object complement" as in the underlined ones are interchangeable terms?
Is it a program I need to have/get installed.
Are you calling me a liar?
I admire your belief that you are always right.

"Noun complement" and "object complement" are not interchangeable terms, but in the second and third examples above, the noun complement (in red) happens to be the object complement, because it complements the blue noun/pronoun, which is the object.

The first example is more complex. The full meaning is: "Is it a program which I need to have/get installed?", where "which" is the object of "have/get", and "installed" is the complement (object complement) of "which". I myself would not use the term "noun complement" for "installed", as it would be confusing; "installed" itself is an adjective, although it complements a pronoun ("which").
A cooperator
Posted: Friday, January 26, 2018 9:37:01 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 10/27/2011
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Audiendus wrote:
A cooperator wrote:
Secondly: you think a noun clause can be an object complement, could you give an example where "the object is a pronoun", and the noun clause is an object complement?

No, I cannot. Such a construction would be very odd.

A cooperator wrote:
Thirdly:you think many nouns and adjectives can be followed by a relative clause? In your example below in other thread, you used a personal pronoun followed by a relative clause.
I consider her a trustworthy person.
I consider her a person who is trustworthy. [object complement]

Yes, this construction can be used wherever it makes sense.

A cooperator wrote:
Finally:
You think "a noun complement" and "an object complement" as in the underlined ones are interchangeable terms?
Is it a program I need to have/get installed.
Are you calling me a liar?
I admire your belief that you are always right.

"Noun complement" and "object complement" are not interchangeable terms, but in the second and third examples above, the noun complement (in red) happens to be the object complement, because it complements the blue noun/pronoun, which is the object.

The first example is more complex. The full meaning is: "Is it a program which I need to have/get installed?", where "which" is the object of "have/get", and "installed" is the complement (object complement) of "which". I myself would not use the term "noun complement" for "installed", as it would be confusing; "installed" itself is an adjective, although it complements a pronoun ("which").


Audiendus,
First of all, why wouldn't you use the term "noun complement" for "installed", but you can use an object complement? Is it since the object "which" isn't a noun, but a pronoun?
If so, then why do you use the term "noun complement" for "a liar" as long as the object "me" is also a pronoun.
In 'Are you calling me a liar?'. 'Me' is the direct object and 'a liar' the object complement.

Secondly: but, when I asked you what is below, you said "added" is an object complement, and didn't say it was as a past participle used as an adjective. However, you said here "installed" is a past participle used as an adjective.
A cooperator wrote:
As long as 'added' is a passivized verb, then I can repharse 'If you select both versions, the moved file will have a number added to its name.' to read as 'If you select both versions, the moved file will have a number to be added to its name.'


Audiendus wrote:
No, that would wrongly imply that the number has not yet been added. "Will have a number added" is not really a passive verb construction, as no form of the verb 'be' is used. (If you said "...will have a number that has been added", the verb would be passive, and the active form would be "...will have a number that someone has added".)
Yes, that is correct. "Added" is an object complement here; it complements the direct object "a number".Yes.
Although a past participle used as an object complement is not a complete passive construction, it has some similarity to a passive construction, and all the alternatives you have listed above are acceptable.






Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
A cooperator
Posted: Friday, January 26, 2018 10:00:11 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 10/27/2011
Posts: 2,933
Neurons: 10,901
Location: Ḩāḑírah, Hadramawt, Yemen
Audiendus wrote:
A cooperator wrote:
Finally:
You think "a noun complement" and "an object complement" as in the underlined ones are interchangeable terms?
Is it a program I need to have/get installed.
Are you calling me a liar?
I admire your belief that you are always right.

"Noun complement" and "object complement" are not interchangeable terms, but in the second and third examples above, the noun complement (in red) happens to be the object complement, because it complements the blue noun/pronoun, which is the object.

Audiendus,Some even use a complement noun as Thar, said there, in some other thread of mine.
Quote:
Yes, but whichever it is, it should still match the complement noun.
None of them was a teacher.
None of them were teachers.


I think there is no "complement noun" term, I think Thar meant a subject complement since "a teacher" or "teachers" is actually a subject complement.
If s/he meant something else such as, since the noun is a complement, then it is a complement noun.
Then, I can have "a complement adjective", "a complement pronoun", "a complement phrase", etc.

Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
Audiendus
Posted: Saturday, January 27, 2018 12:11:19 AM
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Joined: 8/24/2011
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A cooperator,

I cannot keep arguing endlessly about the names of grammatical features. Professional grammarians themselves often disagree about how to label parts of sentences. What matters is how to use words and phrases correctly, not what to call them. The number of possible sentence patterns in English is huge, and it is often difficult to decide which is the best term to describe a particular word or phrase in a sentence. Often, a word or phrase is used in a way that does not exactly fit any simple definition of a term. Sometimes a word or phrase in a particular sentence can be described as both an X and a Y (e.g. both a noun phrase and an object complement), but that does not mean that every X is a Y, or every Y is an X. Also, some terms are vague or ambiguous - e.g. does "noun complement" mean (1) a noun which is a complement, or (2) anything which is the complement of a noun? Is "complement noun" a 'term', or just a description?

I am sorry, but this is my final post in this thread.
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