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'A murder-suicide' (a noun is modified by a hyphenated descriptor OR compound adjective) Options
A cooperator
Posted: Tuesday, January 09, 2018 11:36:21 AM

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Hi,

The World Trade Center in New York City came under a suicide attack on September 11, 2001.

4 dead in apparent murder-suicide at Texas resort, police say.
Four people are dead in Galveston, Tx., Monday after an incident involving gunfire took place at the popular San Luis Resort, which poilce are calling a murder-suicide.


My questions are:
1) why is 'murder-suicide' hyphenated. However, 'suicide attack' isn't? We can then rephrase "murder-suicide" as "suicide murder"

2) there are : suicide, commit suicide:
commit suicide = suicide
so, I can say the following
murder-commit suicide
Commit-suicide murder.





Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Tuesday, January 09, 2018 11:48:56 AM

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The order of nouns in compound nouns of this sort is mostly 'stylistic' (over time, "murder/suicide" was more popular than "suicide/murder", so "murder/suicide" is what most people say).

The use of a hyphen (-) or a virgule (/) is a personal choice. I have normally seen "murder/suicide", I think.

There are phrases in English which mean certain things.

It is useless and wastes your time to try to change those phrases to something different.

Saying "I can say 'murder-commit suicide' instead of 'murder-suicide'" is similar to saying "I can say 'dermur' instead of 'murder'".

1. You can't, it doesn't make sense.
2. Why would anyone want to do that?


Wyrd bið ful aræd - bull!
A cooperator
Posted: Tuesday, January 09, 2018 12:19:52 PM

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Drag0nspeaker wrote:
The order of nouns in compound nouns of this sort is mostly 'stylistic' (over time, "murder/suicide" was more popular than "suicide/murder", so "murder/suicide" is what most people say).

The use of a hyphen (-) or a virgule (/) is a personal choice. I have normally seen "murder/suicide", I think.

There are phrases in English which mean certain things.

It is useless and wastes your time to try to change those phrases to something different.

Saying "I can say 'murder-commit suicide' instead of 'murder-suicide'" is similar to saying "I can say 'dermur' instead of 'murder'".

1. You can't, it doesn't make sense.


Thanks a lot,
Drag0nspeaker,

What I meant is that in the inverted words "murder-suicide" and inserting a hyphen in between, "murder" looks as if it is modified by "suicide". Do you agree with me? If yes, then in "suicide murder", "murder" is also modified by the "suicide" as the same in "suicide attack", "attack" is modified by "suicide". As result, we can then rephrase "murder-suicide" as the way "suicide attack" is phrased. So, it will be as "suicide murder"

Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
Fyfardens
Posted: Tuesday, January 09, 2018 12:25:59 PM
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Drag0nspeaker wrote:

It is useless and wastes your time to try to change those phrases to something different.


Applause Applause Applause
A cooperator
Posted: Tuesday, January 09, 2018 12:29:49 PM

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Fyfardens wrote:
Drag0nspeaker wrote:

It is useless and wastes your time to try to change those phrases to something different.


Applause Applause Applause


Please understand me. This "murder-suicide" is not a vocabulary I try to change. It looks as if it is a NN phrase hyphenated. The same is as in "
"The grass has a colour green", "a suicide attack", "a suicide bombing", etc. But, "suicide attack", "suicide bombing"
Could you go back and read my post again?

Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
thar
Posted: Tuesday, January 09, 2018 12:54:46 PM

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Yes, but do you know what a murder-suicide is?

When is the term used?

What meaning does it express?

How else would you say it?

This is not about grammar - you can't compare it with different things.

How else would you say it?

The perpetrator committed the crime of murder (of a person they knew, and wished to kill) and then killed themselves.


That specific meaning is held within the phrase 'murder-suicide'.

You would know that if you read it in context in a news story.

Grammar just describes how most language works most of the time.

But language is used to express meaning. It does it using all the tools available.

Stop trying to make the language fit the rules you know.
It won't work.


Think about what these words mean, not just how they are constructed.
Fyfardens
Posted: Tuesday, January 09, 2018 12:55:21 PM
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A cooperator wrote:
Could you go back and read my post again?


No.

You have shown little sign in your threads that you pay any attention to what people tell you, and your threads are of little or no value to other members, so I am off to do something more useful - watch some paint dry.
NKM
Posted: Tuesday, January 09, 2018 1:44:25 PM

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In the case of "murder-suicide" it is the act of murder which is "modified" by the ensuing act of suicide.

Nothing to do with grammar!

georgew
Posted: Tuesday, January 09, 2018 2:38:21 PM
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Fyfardens wrote:
A cooperator wrote:
Could you go back and read my post again?


No.

You have shown little sign in your threads that you pay any attention to what people tell you, and your threads are of little or no value to other members, so I am off to do something more useful - watch some paint dry.


Applause Applause Applause

Agree!
Arcadia Rinses
Posted: Tuesday, January 09, 2018 4:49:00 PM

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Drag0nspeaker wrote:
The order of nouns in compound nouns of this sort is mostly 'stylistic' (over time, "murder/suicide" was more popular than "suicide/murder", so "murder/suicide" is what most people say).

The use of a hyphen (-) or a virgule (/) is a personal choice. I have normally seen "murder/suicide", I think.

There are phrases in English which mean certain things.

It is useless and wastes your time to try to change those phrases to something different.

Saying "I can say 'murder-commit suicide' instead of 'murder-suicide'" is similar to saying "I can say 'dermur' instead of 'murder'".

1. You can't, it doesn't make sense.
2. Why would anyone want to do that?


From a strictly logical pdv, there is no such thing as suicide murder. The chronological gym is impossible.
Fyfardens
Posted: Tuesday, January 09, 2018 5:34:53 PM
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Suicide boners commit suicide and murder simultaneously.
thar
Posted: Tuesday, January 09, 2018 5:59:49 PM

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Curious, if rather morbid -
Only English is so prudish it daren't even use the same language for the two things. You commit murder in Anglo-Saxon but suicide in French/Latin.

In Icelandic there is morð and sjálfsmorð. No hiding.
Think
RuthP
Posted: Tuesday, January 09, 2018 6:31:14 PM

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A cooperator wrote:
Hi,

The World Trade Center in New York City came under a suicide attack on September 11, 2001.

4 dead in apparent murder-suicide at Texas resort, police say.
Four people are dead in Galveston, Tx., Monday after an incident involving gunfire took place at the popular San Luis Resort, which poilce are calling a murder-suicide.


My questions are:
1) why is 'murder-suicide' hyphenated. However, 'suicide attack' isn't? We can then rephrase "murder-suicide" as "suicide murder"

2) there are : suicide, commit suicide:
commit suicide = suicide
so, I can say the following
murder-commit suicide
Commit-suicide murder.

You would not be wrong to hyphenate "suicide-attack". Hyphenated nouns have fallen out of favor over time. They were once considerably more common. In the case of "suicide attack" the hyphen is not generally used, because it is not needed. Hyphens are most often used when stacking descriptors up. Using hyphens clarifies which things go together.

In the case of "murder-suicide", the hyphen is used to tie what could easily be two separate incidents into a single action. It clarifies that the motive was the same; the perpetrator was the same.

Both "commit suicide" and "commit murder" are correct descriptions of different actions. To "commit murder-suicide" is to do both as part of a single, so to speak, action, one intent. It is "murder-suicide", not "suicide-murder". Think about it: it would be extremely difficult (impossible) to commit murder if one had committed suicide first.
Romany
Posted: Tuesday, January 09, 2018 8:52:44 PM
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Fyfardens

Is it a typo or a wry comment on the virgins-as-reward? Or perhaps a sado-masochistic suggestion?

Whatever. Made me grin: "suicide boners"
A cooperator
Posted: Tuesday, January 09, 2018 10:59:37 PM

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RuthP wrote:
A cooperator wrote:
Hi,

The World Trade Center in New York City came under a suicide attack on September 11, 2001.

4 dead in apparent murder-suicide at Texas resort, police say.
Four people are dead in Galveston, Tx., Monday after an incident involving gunfire took place at the popular San Luis Resort, which poilce are calling a murder-suicide.


My questions are:
1) why is 'murder-suicide' hyphenated. However, 'suicide attack' isn't? We can then rephrase "murder-suicide" as "suicide murder"

2) there are : suicide, commit suicide:
commit suicide = suicide
so, I can say the following
murder-commit suicide
Commit-suicide murder.

You would not be wrong to hyphenate "suicide-attack". Hyphenated nouns have fallen out of favor over time. They were once considerably more common. In the case of "suicide attack" the hyphen is not generally used, because it is not needed. Hyphens are most often used when stacking descriptors up. Using hyphens clarifies which things go together.

In the case of "murder-suicide", the hyphen is used to tie what could easily be two separate incidents into a single action. It clarifies that the motive was the same; the perpetrator was the same.

Both "commit suicide" and "commit murder" are correct descriptions of different actions. To "commit murder-suicide" is to do both as part of a single, so to speak, action, one intent. It is "murder-suicide", not "suicide-murder". Think about it: it would be extremely difficult (impossible) to commit murder if one had committed suicide first.


Thank a lot,
I think that "A hyphen is used to create compound words. Often, the two words joined by the hyphen act as an adjective that describes a noun in the sentence. However, you don’t need a hyphen to join the word very or an adverb ending in -ly to another word (very pretty flowers, oddly dressed man). When an age or a period of time is used as an adjective before a noun, use two hyphens (my two-year-old son), but leave the hyphens out if the noun comes first (he is two years old). Both cardinal and ordinal numbers may be part of a compound word (one-time pass, first-year student).

Incorrect: Clara finished a 400 page book last week.
Correct: Clara finished a 400-page book last week.
Incorrect: Jake served on a nuclear powered submarine.
Correct: Jake served on a nuclear-powered submarine.
Incorrect: My ten year old brother loves dinosaurs.
Correct: My ten-year-old brother loves dinosaurs
Incorrect: I never thought I would feel that way as a grown up until my friends presented me a red brand-new bike (It appears that grown up is missing a hyphen. I Consider adding the hyphen(s))
Correct: I never thought I would feel that way as a grown-up, until my friends presented me a red brand-new bike.
Incorrect: Remember when you were a careless eight year old kid riding a bike with your friends, racing each other around the neighborhood?
Correct: Remember when you were a careless eight-year-old kid riding a bike with your friends,racing each other around the neighborhood?



As a result, as long as the two words joined by the hyphen act as an adjective that describes a noun in the sentence, then why do you think the two words are joined by a hyphen in 'murder-suicide', however, there is no noun described by this descriptor/adjective produced from joining two words? I.e. in "murder-suicide", there is no noun modified by the hyphenated descriptor/compound adjective 'murder-suicide'. Then, no need to hyphenate them.

'Fair-haired', 'long-haired', 'long-eared' etc are hyphenated since they are compound adjectives (not compound nouns).



Moreover, When reviewing again my previous threads, I found that Thar said:
thar wrote:
The general rule is, that when you have a multiple-word phrase which includes a noun, you hypenate it when you put it before the noun.

eg, in that sentence "multiple word" is hypenated to show it is not the noun.

original sentence
It is a phrase with multiple words
moving it to before the noun, you hypenate
It is a multiple-word phrase.

In your sentence
It is a scan run for the first time.
It is a first-time scan

If you don't put the hypens, you don't know what the noun is. As dragon said, you are in danger of reading it as
It is a first time scan
or
It is a first time scan
not
It is a first time scan

It can get a bit confusing!

The hyphen is to link the 'adjecival-words' together so you can see what is the subject noun, and what is an attributive noun.



» Is the hyphen necessary in 'first-time scan' and 'first time scan'?

noun is modified by a hyphenated descriptor/compound adjective
.
So, if you read that thread, you can see how it could be ambiguous


Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
palapaguy
Posted: Tuesday, January 09, 2018 11:40:48 PM

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Huh ?
thar
Posted: Wednesday, January 10, 2018 12:16:53 AM

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Have you ready what anybody has said?

Please tell me what is in just one of the posts in this thread.

You are good at predicting - guess what I am going to say.
YOU ARE CONNECTING THINGS THAT ARE NOT CONNECTED.

Arguing will not change the English language.
Audiendus
Posted: Wednesday, January 10, 2018 12:24:13 AM
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A cooperator wrote:
why do you think the two words are joined by a hyphen in 'murder-suicide', however, there is no noun described by this descriptor/adjective produced from joining two words? I.e. in "murder-suicide", there is no noun modified by the hyphenated descriptor/compound adjective 'murder-suicide'. Then, no need to hyphenate them.

Compare "murder-suicide" with "bedtime story". "Bedtime" modifies "story" (What kind of a story? A bedtime story). But "murder" does not modify "suicide". (What kind of a suicide? A murder suicide) Instead, the two nouns "murder" and "suicide" are of equal weight; "murder-suicide" means a combination of a murder and a suicide, and the hyphen indicates this. Similarly, a hyphen is used in the following expressions to indicate a combination or blend of two different things:

fridge-freezer
player-manager
ape-man
A cooperator
Posted: Thursday, January 11, 2018 9:25:42 PM

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Audiendus wrote:
A cooperator wrote:
why do you think the two words are joined by a hyphen in 'murder-suicide', however, there is no noun described by this descriptor/adjective produced from joining two words? I.e. in "murder-suicide", there is no noun modified by the hyphenated descriptor/compound adjective 'murder-suicide'. Then, no need to hyphenate them.

Compare "murder-suicide" with "bedtime story". "Bedtime" modifies "story" (What kind of a story? A bedtime story). But "murder" does not modify "suicide". (What kind of a suicide? A murder suicide) Instead, the two nouns "murder" and "suicide" are of equal weight; "murder-suicide" means a combination of a murder and a suicide, and the hyphen indicates this. Similarly, a hyphen is used in the following expressions to indicate a combination or blend of two different things:

fridge-freezer
player-manager
ape-man


Thanks a lot, Audiendus
First of all, do you think, in the following hyphenated words underlined, a hyphen is used to indicate a combination or blend of two different things(the two or more nouns are of equal weight):
Jake served on a nuclear-powered submarine.
My ten-year-old brother loves dinosaurs.

Secondly:
1) I only found the following two nouns which are of equal weigh in the dictonary "African-American". Why cannot the two nouns which are of equal weight be found in any dictionary, I looked all these up in dictionary, but none of them were there.
Player–manager
Player-coach
Ape-man
fridge-freezer
Murder-suicide

2) can any two adjectives which are of equal weight joined by the hyphen NOT be found in a dictionary since they are made-up adjective? (I.e. all compound adjectives can be stately found as an adjective in a dictionary)

3) can I call any two nouns which are of equal weight, joined by the hyphen as an a compound noun?

4) I can have two adjectives which are of equal weight and joined by the hyphen act as an a compound adjective. I think these two below are just a simple adjective(not compound adjective) since they are found in the dictionary.
fair-haired boy
blue-eyed boy

5) do you think it really matters if a descriptor is a compound adjective compound noun? As far as I know, I can have two adjectives which are of equal weight and joined by the hyphen act as a descriptor/compound adjective modifying a noun.
fair-haired boy
Jake served on a nuclear-powered submarine.
My ten-year-old brother loves dinosaurs.

6)but, can I have two nouns which are of equal weight and joined by the hyphen act as a descriptor/compound noun modifying a noun?
an African- American (an American citizen whose family was originally from Africa.)
an African-American person(an American citizen person whose family was originally from Africa.)
an American-Arab (an Arab citizen whose family was originaly from the US.)
an American-Arab person.(an Arab citizen person whose family was originaly from the US.)
an ape-man person(a man person who is a little/short)



7) why do I need to hyphenate 'a grown-up', or otherwise I will have a punctuation error although it's an adjective not followed by a noun and found in any dictionary? as far as I know I only need to hyphenate two words as a descriptor/compound adjective if there is a noun after them .

I never thought I would feel that way as a grown-up, until my friends presented me a red brand-new bike.





Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
A cooperator
Posted: Thursday, January 11, 2018 10:29:13 PM

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Audiendus wrote:

Compare "murder-suicide" with "bedtime story". "Bedtime" modifies "story" (What kind of a story? A bedtime story). But "murder" does not modify "suicide". (What kind of a suicide? A murder suicide) Instead, the two nouns "murder" and "suicide" are of equal weight; "murder-suicide" means a combination of a murder and a suicide, and the hyphen indicates this. Similarly, a hyphen is used in the following expressions to indicate a combination or blend of two different things:

fridge-freezer
player-manager
ape-man


Audiendus,
If the two nouns "murder" and "suicide" are of equal weight; "murder-suicide" means a combination of a murder and a suicide, and the hyphen indicates this, then why don't we say "suicide-murder"?

Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
palapaguy
Posted: Thursday, January 11, 2018 10:49:28 PM

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A cooperator wrote:
Audiendus wrote:

Compare "murder-suicide" with "bedtime story". "Bedtime" modifies "story" (What kind of a story? A bedtime story). But "murder" does not modify "suicide". (What kind of a suicide? A murder suicide) Instead, the two nouns "murder" and "suicide" are of equal weight; "murder-suicide" means a combination of a murder and a suicide, and the hyphen indicates this. Similarly, a hyphen is used in the following expressions to indicate a combination or blend of two different things:

fridge-freezer
player-manager
ape-man


Audiendus,
If the two nouns "murder" and "suicide" are of equal weight; "murder-suicide" means a combination of a murder and a suicide, and the hyphen indicates this, then why don't we say "suicide-murder"?


Think about it.

When two words appear together, one following the other, might time succession or another relationship naturally be implied? The answer is: "Yes, it might."

So which order of those two words makes sense?

Come back and tell us your answer.
A cooperator
Posted: Thursday, January 11, 2018 11:00:41 PM

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palapaguy wrote:
A cooperator wrote:
Audiendus wrote:

Compare "murder-suicide" with "bedtime story". "Bedtime" modifies "story" (What kind of a story? A bedtime story). But "murder" does not modify "suicide". (What kind of a suicide? A murder suicide) Instead, the two nouns "murder" and "suicide" are of equal weight; "murder-suicide" means a combination of a murder and a suicide, and the hyphen indicates this. Similarly, a hyphen is used in the following expressions to indicate a combination or blend of two different things:

fridge-freezer
player-manager
ape-man


Audiendus,
If the two nouns "murder" and "suicide" are of equal weight; "murder-suicide" means a combination of a murder and a suicide, and the hyphen indicates this, then why don't we say "suicide-murder"?


Think about it.

When two words appear together, one following the other, might time succession or another relationship naturally be implied? The answer is: "Yes, it might."

So which order of those two words makes sense?

Come back and tell us your answer.


Thanks a lot, palapaguy,
I don't know what is, really. But, surely, "murder-suicide" is since I only saw it written there on the official website of that report. However, if I am going to compose my own sentence, I really will be faced with an issue ordering the words. To translate into my own Arabic language, words in English are translated from the right side(from the end) to the left side(beginning). Each thing written in English is translated into Arabic invertedly. I hope you have got me.

Then, can "4 dead in apparent murder-suicide at Texas resort, police say." be rephrased as "4 dead in apparent suicide-murder at Texas resort, police say."?

If not, then in which example would that inverting words be interchangeable?


Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
palapaguy
Posted: Thursday, January 11, 2018 11:11:58 PM

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After posting my reply immediately above, I saw that Thar had told you this some time ago:

"The perpetrator committed the crime of murder (of a person they knew, and wished to kill) and then killed themselves."

Clearly, you are ignoring the people who have been attempting to help you. Why are you here?
Sarrriesfan
Posted: Friday, January 12, 2018 12:33:57 AM

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If the person had committed suicide first then they would be dead so there would be no murder.

The term murder-suicide gives a basic chronology of the events that happened, first the criminal killed someone else and themself, a suicide-murder makes no sense to a native speakers mind.

I lack the imagination for a witty signature.
A cooperator
Posted: Friday, January 12, 2018 4:50:43 PM

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Sarrriesfan wrote:
If the person had committed suicide first then they would be dead so there would be no murder.

The term murder-suicide gives a basic chronology of the events that happened, first the criminal killed someone else and themself, a suicide-murder makes no sense to a native speakers mind.


Thanks a lot,
Yes, for 'Murder-Suicide' is OK. And it is obvious inverting words would not make any sense.
However, I am talking in general.
However, if I am going to compose my own sentence, I really will be faced with an issue ordering the words. To translate into my own Arabic language, words in English are translated from the right side(from the end) to the left side(beginning). Each thing written in English is translated into Arabic invertedly. I hope you have got me.

In which examples would that inverting words be interchangeable?



Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
Fyfardens
Posted: Friday, January 12, 2018 5:36:07 PM
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Coop, when we native speakers of English come up with new phrases, somewhere in the unconscious back of our minds we use analogy, logic, our personal perverted idea of logic, our personal feelings about what sounds right, common sense, and a number of other things. One thing most of us do not think about, consciously or otherwise, is how we might translate the phrase into Arabic, or how an Arabic speaker might translate an apparently similar thought into English.

As you have been told many times before, stop thinking about how you express things in Arabic. Arabic is one of the world's major languages, and writings in Arabic have made significant contributions to the development of the world. BUT, Arabic ain't English. In your own learning process, you may find it beneficial to compare the two languages, but please don't do it here. Every time you mention Arabic in your many threads, most (not all) of us think "This forum is about English, not about Arabic".
georgew
Posted: Friday, January 12, 2018 6:10:44 PM
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A cooperator wrote:

However, if I am going to compose my own sentence, I really will be faced with an issue ordering the words. To translate into my own Arabic language, words in English are translated from the right side(from the end) to the left side(beginning). Each thing written in English is translated into Arabic invertedly. I hope you have got me.


No, you should NOT be faced with any issue of ordering those words. The only valid order that is used is "murder-suicide". Prove it to yourself by Googling.

You must learn English by learning the meanings of words and phrases. Don't try to create your own rules.

Each thing written in English is translated into Arabic invertedly. No. English is written according to English grammar and usage, and without using any other language as an aid.
A cooperator
Posted: Sunday, January 14, 2018 9:04:30 AM

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Location: Ḩāḑírah, Hadramawt, Yemen
Could anyone please confirm these points for me as much as s/he can?
1)do you think, in the following hyphenated words underlined, a hyphen is used to indicate a combination or blend of two different things(the two or more nouns are of equal weight):
Jake served on a nuclear-powered submarine.
My ten-year-old brother loves dinosaurs.


2) I only found the following two nouns which are of equal weigh in the dictonary "African-American". Why cannot the two nouns which are of equal weight be found in any dictionary, I looked all these up in dictionary, but none of them were there.
Player–manager
Player-coach
Ape-man
fridge-freezer
Murder-suicide

3) can any two adjectives which are of equal weight joined by the hyphen NOT be found in a dictionary since they are made-up adjective? (I.e. all compound adjectives can be stately found as an adjective in a dictionary)

4) can I call any two nouns which are of equal weight, joined by the hyphen as an a compound noun?

5) I can have two adjectives which are of equal weight and joined by the hyphen act as an a compound adjective. I think these two below are just a simple adjective(not compound adjective) since they are found in the dictionary.
fair-haired boy
blue-eyed boy

6) do you think it really matters if a descriptor is a compound adjective compound noun? As far as I know, I can have two adjectives which are of equal weight and joined by the hyphen act as a descriptor/compound adjective modifying a noun.
fair-haired boy
Jake served on a nuclear-powered submarine.
My ten-year-old brother loves dinosaurs.

7)but, can I have two nouns which are of equal weight and joined by the hyphen act as a descriptor/compound noun modifying a noun?
an African- American (an American citizen whose family was originally from Africa.)
an African-American person(an American citizen person whose family was originally from Africa.)
an American-Arab (an Arab citizen whose family was originaly from the US.)
an American-Arab person.(an Arab citizen person whose family was originaly from the US.)
an ape-man person(a man person who is a little/short)



8) why do I need to hyphenate 'a grown-up', or otherwise I will have a punctuation error although it's an adjective not followed by a noun and found in any dictionary? as far as I know I only need to hyphenate two words as a descriptor/compound adjective if there is a noun after them .

I never thought I would feel that way as a grown-up, until my friends presented me a red brand-new bike.


Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
Fyfardens
Posted: Sunday, January 14, 2018 12:20:22 PM
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One question per post is more than enough. If you are going to ask more, I shall simply make no attempt to respond.



Fyfardens
Posted: Sunday, January 14, 2018 12:20:23 PM
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One question per post is more than enough. If you are going to ask more, I shall simply make no attempt to respond. Your threads beginning with more than one question soon become chaotic.



srirr
Posted: Monday, January 15, 2018 3:13:14 AM

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Cooperator, I too, like you, am a non-native speaker of English. English is second or third language for me. And we were always taught that to write or speak in English correctly (or any other second language), we should try to think in English first; and NOT simply translate from our mother language to English. This is really very difficult, I know. The cultural and social upbringing has a great impact on our thought process. But remember, every language has its own grammar and technicalities. It should not be imposed on other language. Many a times, we may map the two, but on several occasions we simply can't.

The contributors here have made it clear in this thread.

Coming to your last post, I would like to add my points that you are trying to match one use of hyphen with another use. Yes, a punctuation may have different uses. If a hyphen is used to connect modifier or adjective with adverb or another adjective, it is not mandatory that it always conveys the same association between two words. And thus, nuclear-powered and murder-suicide can not be compared on same scale. We should not. Both the uses of hyphens are different.


We are responsible for what we are, and whatever we wish ourselves to be, we have the power to make ourselves. ~ Swami Vivekanand
A cooperator
Posted: Monday, January 15, 2018 12:54:49 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 10/27/2011
Posts: 2,657
Neurons: 9,597
Location: Ḩāḑírah, Hadramawt, Yemen
Thank you both of Srirr, Fyfardens

My questions only need to be confirmed If I was correct there or not, I think.
So, would anyone be so kind please as to try to answer my points?

I would also add I am fairly sure that all hyphen uses make sense and difference only in English written. However, in English spoken, they don't make sense or difference while pronouncing them.

Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
Fyfardens
Posted: Monday, January 15, 2018 1:31:11 PM
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We don't pronounce any punctuation marks.
Romany
Posted: Monday, January 15, 2018 1:47:36 PM
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Location: Brighton, England, United Kingdom

In English, the adjective comes before the verb.

Thus it's "written English" and "spoken English."
A cooperator
Posted: Monday, January 15, 2018 6:36:53 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 10/27/2011
Posts: 2,657
Neurons: 9,597
Location: Ḩāḑírah, Hadramawt, Yemen
Romany wrote:

In English, the adjective comes before the verb.

Thus it's "written English" and "spoken English."

Thanks a lot,
Though out of topic, I would be saying
Here an adjective comes after a verb.
Romany looks beautiful.

Let me be precise here about English - Arabic.
In Arabic, there are only two sentences, no third for them. Nominative and verbal sentences.
In Arabic,
* we only say a sentence is a verbal sentence if a subject comes after a verb.
* we only say a sentence is a verbal sentence if a finite verb is not an auxiliary verb, but a main verb. So, "Romany is beautiful." has no verb in my Arabic language, however, it is adjectival sentence(nominative sentence).
* We never ever have a subject comes before a verb, if happened, then it is called a nominative sentence, not a verbal sentence even if there is a main verb.

Thus, we only can write "Romany is beautiful." in Arabic as a nominative sentence(no verb). However, two words, the first one is the proper name "Romany" and modified by the adjective "beautiful".
Like this:
Romany beautiful.
جميل روماني
We can also write that sentence "Romany is beautiful.", as another kind of nominative sentence by adding incomplete verb before the noun followed by the adjective. However, the sentence is still nominative.(no action of a verb done by the doer)
Romany is beautiful.

جميل رومانييكون

By now, for my curiosity, I would like you to explain to me why you do call "Romany is beautiful." a verbal sentence where the doer "subject" doesn't do any action, however, the subject is the one being talked about.

Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
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