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The family gaming team Options
Joe Kim
Posted: Tuesday, January 09, 2018 12:46:03 AM

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There is this word " the family gaming team"- the whole family is playing games for YouTube.

Shouldn't the order of this be the gaming family team?
Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Tuesday, January 09, 2018 2:12:35 AM

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Location: Livingston, Scotland, United Kingdom
Hello Joe Kim.
This (in red) is copied from a site called "ginger software" but very similar lists can be found in the Cambridge Dictionary site and many others.

Generally, the adjective order in English is:
Quantity or number.
Quality or opinion.
Size.
Age.
Shape.
Color.
Proper adjective (often nationality, other place of origin, or material)
Purpose or qualifier.


The purpose of the team is 'gaming' so that is the last adjective.
The team is made up from the family (this is similar to 'nationality' or 'origin'). This comes earlier.

This is a pattern which most "native speakers" do not even know that they are following - but they do follow it. It is learned by experience by children.

**************
Sometimes it can be changed a little, if the speaker wants to stress or exaggerate one quality, but it is unusual.

"The beautiful big glass jewel-box" would be normal (opinion, size, material, purpose, noun)
but one could stress the size:
"The HUGE beautiful glass jewel-box".


Wyrd bið ful aræd - bull!
Joe Kim
Posted: Wednesday, January 10, 2018 1:31:21 AM

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Thank you.

Then, why does it never occur to you guys that it could be understood like the team gaming family? This is the usual pattern you interpret when there is a gerund, right? For example, the falling leaves, the music making machine.

In th other Vocabulary tread, I asked about paper breaking sound or breaking paper sound. That's because I wanted to know what is the subject of gerund and the connection with the main idea which is the last word.

I understood "family gaming team" in the same way. And now you are telling me the order is different from the order "music making machine" or "breaking paper sound"?
thar
Posted: Wednesday, January 10, 2018 2:39:30 AM

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Because these are different things.

A music-making machine is a machine which makes music.

A paper-breaking sound is the sound which paper makes when it breaks.

But 'gaming' is different.
This is not 'a family which games'.
It is just a different structure.
Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Wednesday, January 10, 2018 2:48:39 AM

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Location: Livingston, Scotland, United Kingdom
Hello Joe Kim.

Gosh - these are things which British (and other native) English-speakers never think of.
It is good that you ask these questions (for me) - it makes me look.
We do not learn rules, but we connect words so that they 'say what we mean' - as we have heard since we were born.

In the phrase "family gaming team", there is a noun "team" with two adjectives - one says the origin of the team (the family) and the other says the purpose of the team (gaming). Both adjectives modify the noun. They are not hyphenated.

In "music-making machine" there is a noun "machine" with one adjective which tells the purpose of the machine - "making music". "Making" is a participle and its object is "music". The whole phrase "music-making" is ONE adjectival phrase. The phrase usually has a hyphen.

One could say "team-gaming family" - that is a noun (family) with an adjectival phrase "team-gaming" describing its activity.
"Family" is the noun. "Gaming" is the participle and "team" is an adverbial which tells you what type of gaming.

**************
"Breaking paper sound" and "paper breaking sound" are not familiar-sounding phrases.
That is why you received such vague answers in that thread - the phrase was not properly understood.
Both phrases sound 'strange', so no-one would think to say "you should use 'this one'. Everyone tried to find another word or phrase to describe what you meant.

A vocabulary point here:
We do not speak of paper "breaking" - "We tear paper", or "paper tears". /teəʳ/, /teəʳz/
It is a verb which can be used two ways - the paper can be the object or the subject of the verb 'tear'.

You would normally say "the sound of someone tearing paper" or "the sound of paper tearing".

You would be understood if you said "a paper-tearing sound" or "a tearing-paper sound".

It is not two adjectives in either case - it is one (you cannot have a 'paper sound'). They are both a 'tearing sound' - with 'paper' as a modifier of 'tearing' - like the 'subject' or 'object' of 'tearing'.

************
I hope that helps - if it is still a bit confusing, ask again - maybe someone else can say it better than I can, or I will try to re-phrase it.



Wyrd bið ful aræd - bull!
Fyfardens
Posted: Wednesday, January 10, 2018 3:04:15 AM
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One point is that such phrases as family gaming team, paper breaking sound or even music making machine are not expressions we meet every day. With more familiar expressions, stress (in speech) and hyphens (in writing) make the meaning clear. When we hear/read that many students these days use essay-writing services, we know that these are for the writing of essays. Team building exercises help to build teams. Presumably a music-making machine is one that makes music.

There is little problem with transitive verbs. It's a little different with verbs used intransitively. You We cannot sail people, and therefore a womens sailing club must be intended and interpreted as a sailing club for women, whereas a dinghy-sailing club is a club for people who sail dinghies. A family swimming pool is a swimming pool that belongs to the family.

Assuming that people who form teams to play games can be said to be involved in gaming, then we can call these teams gaming teams. If some members of a family form such a team, then they may be referred to as the family gaming team. If a large family has several such teams, then they are a family of gaming teams - a gaming-team family.
Joe Kim
Posted: Thursday, January 11, 2018 3:38:17 PM

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Thank you everyone for your long and helpful effort.

So, it's not really wrong to say either "breaking paper sound" or "Paper breaking sound", since if one doesn't make sense, you would shift the notion to something more undestanable? This probably goes with " sawing time or sleeping time, right?

It has been so much said that they don't make sense, since the time doesn't do anything. But according to the other notion, I don't know they weren't understandable at all. (Even they are making sense in my language). Hope it wasn't picking a needle in sand.
Fyfardens
Posted: Thursday, January 11, 2018 5:59:46 PM
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Joe Kim wrote:
T
So, it's not really wrong to say either "breaking paper sound" or "Paper breaking sound", since if one doesn't make sense, you would shift the notion to something more undestanable?


The main problem there is that neither makes much sense.
FounDit
Posted: Friday, January 12, 2018 11:01:43 AM

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Joe Kim wrote:
Thank you everyone for your long and helpful effort.

So, it's not really wrong to say either "breaking paper sound" or "Paper breaking sound", since if one doesn't make sense, you would shift the notion to something more undestanable? This probably goes with " sawing time or sleeping time, right?
As Fyfardens said, this would not make sense in English. We would expect paper to make a tearing sound as DragOnspeaker explained, not a "breaking" sound".

There is an idiom in English relating to sleep called "sawing logs", so the only way to use it as you did, would be to say, "log-sawing time", or "time to saw some logs". But the other person would have to know the subject is already about sleep. Then it would be understood.

"Sleeping time" would more likely be something you might say to a child, or perhaps, "sleepy time". It wouldn't be used for adults.


It has been so much said that they don't make sense, since the time doesn't do anything. But according to the other notion, I don't know they weren't understandable at all. (Even they are making sense in my language). Hope it wasn't picking a needle in sand.


A great many people will think they are thinking when they are merely rearranging their prejudices. ~ William James ~
Joe Kim
Posted: Friday, January 12, 2018 3:35:04 PM

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Thank you.

Actually, I am not so much into finding what is making sense.

My question is more about where to put gerund and how does it change its meaning.

If someone can understand my meaning and the meaning of a all these posts, then can you make a conclusion on this?
georgew
Posted: Friday, January 12, 2018 4:22:12 PM
Rank: Newbie

Joined: 8/13/2016
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Joe Kim wrote:
Thank you.

Actually, I am not so much into finding what is making sense.

My question is more about where to put gerund and how does it change its meaning.

If someone can understand my meaning and the meaning of a all these posts, then can you make a conclusion on this?


So you want someone to understand the meaning of something that might not make sense?

That's a tall order Joe, even for native speakers. Whistle
Fyfardens
Posted: Friday, January 12, 2018 5:37:59 PM
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georgew wrote:
That's a tall order Joe, even for native speakers. Whistle


Applause
palapaguy
Posted: Friday, January 12, 2018 9:06:02 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 10/28/2013
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Location: Calabasas, California, United States
Joe Kim wrote:
Thank you.

Actually, I am not so much into finding what is making sense.


But you MUST be, Joe. Why are you here if not for the purpose of communicating properly in English?

The first rule of using English or any language is to communicate! And you must MAKE SENSE in order to do that.

Is this some sort of game for you?
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