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Alaska returns to Russia Options
Helenej
Posted: Saturday, January 6, 2018 12:43:08 PM

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Did you know that Russia is determined to get Alaska back?

A member of the Russia's parliament sings about that with cadets from a school run by Russia’s police force and spreads the video in the Internet.
We will return Alaska
TL Hobs
Posted: Saturday, January 6, 2018 3:00:23 PM

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Location: Kenai, Alaska, United States
Just how do you suppose they go about it? WWIII? Buy it back for $7million? Have a coin toss and winner takes all? Have Putin and Trump arm wrestle for it? Or, simply ask the US to give it back?

If I were a betting man, I wouldn't lay odds on it happening.


"When you don't know where you are going, you have to stick together just in case someone gets there." - Ken Kesey
Romany
Posted: Saturday, January 6, 2018 3:16:25 PM
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Oh, I dunno, TL, -

Maybe if Putin asked Trump very nicely?
And if he asked Trump AND gave him a parade? Then Trump'd probably throw in that pesky Puerto Rico and a years supply of cheeseburgers.

FounDit
Posted: Saturday, January 6, 2018 3:58:59 PM

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Helenej wrote:
Did you know that Russia is determined to get Alaska back?

A member of the Russia's parliament sings about that with cadets from a school run by Russia’s police force and spreads the video in the Internet.
We will return Alaska

Uh, huh. And Krushchev said they were going to bury us. How'd that work out for him?

I do have to give them credit, however, for heavily influencing the Democrat Party here in the US. But then Trump was elected. So close, but no cigar.


We should look to the past to learn from it, not destroy our future because of it — FounDit
IMcRout
Posted: Saturday, January 6, 2018 4:19:23 PM

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Maybe they promise to build him the wall?

I totally take back all those times I didn't want to nap when I was younger. (Anon)
Helenej
Posted: Saturday, January 6, 2018 4:21:16 PM

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TL Hobs wrote:
Just how do you suppose they go about it? WWIII? Buy it back for $7million? Have a coin toss and winner takes all? Have Putin and Trump arm wrestle for it? Or, simply ask the US to give it back?

No, just like he did in Crimea, Putin may try to send to Alaska his “little green men” in camouflage without insignia pretending to be local Alaskan “self-defence groups”.
isaaac
Posted: Saturday, January 6, 2018 8:19:19 PM
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Helenej wrote:
Did you know that Russia is determined to get Alaska back?

A member of the Russia's parliament sings about that with cadets from a school run by Russia’s police force and spreads the video in the Internet.
We will return Alaska



Internet - New "Brick wall Boo hoo! Pravda"
Y111
Posted: Sunday, January 7, 2018 1:24:51 AM
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Relax, guys. Just because some children, even with an MP, have sung a song doesn't mean Russia is determined to do something.

I remember a popular song from the early 90s (or late 80s?) that mentioned Alaska in the same context. It's a kind of joke in Russia. Well, maybe there are people who take it seriously, I can't speak for everyone, but what kind of people? I don't think their fantasies qualify as "Russia is determined".
Fyfardens
Posted: Sunday, January 7, 2018 3:32:42 AM
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Helenej wrote:

just like he did in Crimea, Putin may try to send to Alaska his “little green men” in camouflage without insignia pretending to be local Alaskan “self-defence groups”.


Whether we like it or not, there were many Russian-speaking people in Crimea who felt they were being unfairly treated by a government that had illegally seized power.

As far as I know, nobody in Alaska feels oppressed by a government that has illegally seized power
.

I speak British English (standard southern, slightly dated).
Helenej
Posted: Sunday, January 7, 2018 6:32:04 AM

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Y111 wrote:
Relax, guys. Just because some children, even with an MP, have sung a song doesn't mean Russia is determined to do something.

I remember a popular song from the early 90s (or late 80s?) that mentioned Alaska in the same context. It's a kind of joke in Russia. Well, maybe there are people who take it seriously, I can't speak for everyone, but what kind of people? I don't think their fantasies qualify as "Russia is determined".

A joke? What matters is who jokes this way. What would you say if a member of the Bundestag, together with children in military uniforms, sang a song about taking back Kaliningrad and uploaded it on the Internet? Would it improve relationship between Russia and Germany?

Of course, saying that Russia is “determined” is an exaggeration. It wants to return. If a member of the parliament says she wants Alaska back, than we can only suppose that she does think so. MP Zhirinovsky has repeatedly called on taking Alaska back by force.
Zhirinovsky

I am sure there are many more Russia’s MPs who would like to return Alaska.


Fyfardens
Posted: Sunday, January 7, 2018 6:44:20 AM
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Helenej wrote:

A joke? What matters is who jokes this way. What would you say if a member of the Bundestag, together with children in military uniforms, sang a song about taking back Kaliningrad and uploaded it on the Internet? Would it improve relationship between Russia and Germany?


I'd say we had another nutter on our hands.

I speak British English (standard southern, slightly dated).
Helenej
Posted: Sunday, January 7, 2018 7:16:16 AM

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Fyfardens wrote:
There were many Russian-speaking people in Crimea who felt they were being unfairly treated by a government that had illegally seized power.

Rubbish.

(I liked the way you said, “Rubbish” commenting on a post of mine the other day. If respectable native speakers, whom we all call teachers, say so, then it must be considered a model well worth copying, I suppose. So let me repeat you.)

Firstly, the new government was formed in full accordance with the Ukrainian constitution. The prime minister officially resigned and the ACTING parliament voted for a new prime minister. The ACTING parliament also appointed the new government.

Secondly, the new Ukrainian government was appointed by the parliament on 27 February. Russian “polite green men” started to appear in Crimea on the 23rd. On the 27th they took over the parliament of Crimea, which terminated the Crimean government on the same day.

Now you can calculate for how long Russian-speaking people in Crimea “were being unfairly treated”, as you say, by the new Ukrainian government. Take 27 from 27 and you’ll get 0 days! As you said, rubbish.


Helenej
Posted: Sunday, January 7, 2018 7:30:01 AM

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Fyfardens wrote:
I'd say we had another nutter on our hands.

Applause If I could express myself in English so elegantly, I would say the same.
Y111
Posted: Sunday, January 7, 2018 7:36:11 AM
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Helenej wrote:
What would you say if a member of the Bundestag, together with children in military uniforms, sang a song about taking back Kaliningrad and uploaded it on the Internet? Would it improve relationship between Russia and Germany?

No, it wouldn't improve it. However, the idea of us conquering Alaska still looks absurd. That line in the song is silly, of course, and it shouldn't be there. I don't agree with it.

Helenej wrote:

MP Zhirinovsky has repeatedly called on taking Alaska back by force.
Zhirinovsky

Yet nothing has happened. Alaska is still American. He has even said something about going to the Indian ocean. He is a clown. I would definitely prefer all of our MPs to be reasonable and respectable, but we have what we have.

Helenej wrote:

I am sure there are many more Russia’s MPs who would like to return Alaska.

I am not so sure, and also, are they ready to start a war with the US for it? How many of them? Close to none, I guess.
Helenej
Posted: Sunday, January 7, 2018 7:46:52 AM

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Y111 wrote:
No, it wouldn't improve it. That line in the song is silly, of course, and it shouldn't be there. I don't agree with it.

That's great.

Y111 wrote:
Yet nothing has happened. Alaska is still American.

I'm afraid that if Alaska were part of Ukraine, not America, its fate would be similar to that of Crimea.
Helenej
Posted: Sunday, January 7, 2018 8:01:16 AM

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Y111, would you check your inbox, please?
Y111
Posted: Sunday, January 7, 2018 8:35:41 AM
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Helenej wrote:
Y111, would you check your inbox, please?

Done.

Helenej wrote:

I'm afraid that if Alaska were part of Ukraine, not America, its fate would be similar to that of Crimea.

If there were a serious reason for that.
progpen
Posted: Sunday, January 7, 2018 9:10:29 AM

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I'd say this discussion ranks right up there with:

What if Great Britain takes back the North American Colonies? Both of these questions are great subjects for alternative timeline science fiction stories, but other than that. Not so much.

Edit: There is far too much else going on right now for us to waste our time and resources fretting over this.

Nolite te bastardes carborundorum
Jyrkkä Jätkä
Posted: Sunday, January 7, 2018 9:44:15 AM

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There were some Soviet leaders who wanted to get Finland back. Stalin was the last one who tried. Losses: a million Soviets and one hundred thousand Finns.


In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.
Helenej
Posted: Sunday, January 7, 2018 10:06:24 AM

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Jyrkkä Jätkä wrote:
There were some Soviet leaders who wanted to get Finland back.

The above mentioned Zhirinovsky seriously speaks about getting Finland back, although he is a MP, not president, of course. But he is allowed to say that. By saying that, he creates an atmosphere in the society, in which much may become possible.

Helenej
Posted: Sunday, January 7, 2018 10:18:04 AM

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progpen wrote:
I'd say this discussion ranks right up there with:

What if Great Britain takes back the North American Colonies? Both of these questions are great subjects for alternative timeline science fiction stories, but other than that. Not so much.

There is difference here. No member of the British Parliament threatens that Britain is going to take its colonies back. It's different with Russia. If my neighbor is a nutter, who threatens to take away my house, I'd prefer to be aware of that so that I can regard him in an appropriate way, even if my house is strong enough.

Litvinenko
Posted: Sunday, January 7, 2018 10:54:31 AM

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You scare the Americans, stop it.

A perfect design, with no designer.
Helenej
Posted: Sunday, January 7, 2018 11:16:25 AM

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Litvinenko wrote:
You scare the Americans.

It's good that I scare them. I don't want Alaska to be Russian again.

Hope123
Posted: Sunday, January 7, 2018 11:19:33 AM

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Probably not after Alaska, but definitely vying for shipping lanes, and oil and gas reserves as the Arctic melts because of climate disruption in the Arctic. I did not have time to read these articles so if interested you can decide for yourself what the facts are. With research there is lots more info to be had as well.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-russia-arctic-insight/putins-russia-in-biggest-arctic-military-push-since-soviet-fall-idUSKBN15E0W0


I don't know what Canada has done since this article in 2015.

http://www.macleans.ca/news/canada/vladimir-putin-justin-trudeau-and-canadas-arctic-problem/

https://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2017/04/21/canadian-jets-intercept-russian-bombers-for-first-time-in-2-years.html


Also this -

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-12-14/russia-dreams-big-as-u-s-fails-to-kill-27-billion-gas-project

The past is to be respected/acknowledged, not worshipped. It is in our future we will find our greatness. Pierre Trudeau
progpen
Posted: Sunday, January 7, 2018 11:46:52 AM

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Litvinenko wrote:
You scare the Americans, stop it.


LOL, thank you for your concern but this piddling thing just adds a small bit to the cacophony of fear that is being shoved down American's throats every day.

Nolite te bastardes carborundorum
Fyfardens
Posted: Sunday, January 7, 2018 11:54:37 AM
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Fyfardens wrote:
There were many Russian-speaking people in Crimea who felt they were being unfairly treated by a government that had illegally seized power.



I should have said 'Parliament', which was the de facto government at the time.


Helenej wrote:
Russian “polite green men” started to appear in Crimea on the 23rd. On the 27th they took over the parliament of Crimea, which terminated the Crimean government on the same day.


On February 23, Parliament adopted a bill to repeal the country's law on minority languages. If signed by the president, the bill would have established Ukrainian as the sole official state language of Ukraine, including Crimea, which is populated by a Russian-speaking majority.[301] The Christian Science Monitor reported that the bill "only served to infuriate Russian-speaking regions, [who] saw the move as more evidence that the antigovernment protests in Kiev that toppled Yanukovych's government were intent on pressing for a nationalistic agenda."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Ukrainian_revolution#18_February

According to 2014, the ethnic makeup of Crimea's population consists of the following self-reported groups: Russians:1.49 million (65.3%), Ukrainians: 344,500 (15.7%), Crimean Tatars and Tatars: 246,073 (12.2%), Belarusians: 21,700 (0.9%), Armenians: 11,000 (0.5%).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Crimea



I speak British English (standard southern, slightly dated).
Helenej
Posted: Sunday, January 7, 2018 12:47:23 PM

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Fyfardens wrote:
I should have said 'Parliament', which was the de facto government at the time.

A parliament, as a legislative body creates laws, whereas a government enforces them.
What makes you think the Ukraine’s parliament dealt with enforcement of the laws in February 2014? The prime minister only resigned on the 28th.


Fyfardens wrote:
On February 23, Parliament adopted a bill to repeal the country's law on minority languages. If signed by the president, the bill would have established Ukrainian as the sole official state language of Ukraine, including Crimea, which is populated by a Russian-speaking majority.

The law was adopted by the parliament elected by the whole country, including Crimea and the eastern regions. All the regions had their representatives in the parliament.

If some Californians don’t like a law adopted by the Congress, do they have the right to immediately secede for this reason?


Fyfardens
Posted: Monday, January 8, 2018 8:09:55 AM
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Helenej wrote:


What makes you think the Ukraine’s parliament dealt with enforcement of the laws in February 2014? T


I don't think that. My point was simply that a law was adopted that would have established Ukrainian as the sole official state language of Ukraine, including Crimea, which is populated by a Russian-speaking majority


I speak British English (standard southern, slightly dated).
Helenej
Posted: Monday, January 8, 2018 12:53:49 PM

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Fyfardens wrote:
Helenej wrote:
What makes you think the Ukraine’s parliament dealt with enforcement of the laws in February 2014?

I don't think that.

How come? You said that the parliament "was de facto government at the time".

Fyfardens wrote:
My point was simply that a law was adopted that would have established Ukrainian as the sole official state language of Ukraine, including Crimea, which is populated by a Russian-speaking majority.

The question of the national language is really a difficult one here. According to the 1989 census, which was held two years before the USSR collapsed, 73% called themselves Ukrainians against 22% Russians. So it seemed quite natural to make Ukrainian the national language, though I don’t think the question was given an extremely profound thought. Personally, I was against that since I’m a native Russian with my roots in Moscow, with no Ukrainian in my family. I spoke Ukrainian badly and even now have trouble speaking it. My parents have never learned to speak Ukrainian (I guess they have never even tried because there was no need as not less than 70 or even 80% spoke Russian in Kiev. It's probably a bit different now, after 2014, though). However, I didn’t consider Ukrainian a big problem as you could speak and write Russian wherever you wanted, in school, in court, in any government institution. Russian was very common even in the parliament. On the TV and radio, both presenters and guests spoke the language they could, often times a presenter speaking Ukrainian and the guest speaking Russian (it hasn’t changed now). As well as in Kiev, there were no problems with languages in the east and in Crimea. At least, there have never been any protests against the Ukrainian language, as far as I know.

Yes, a new language law was adopted in the aftermath of the mass killing of the protesters and I can understand why. Russia’s negative interference in the events was so huge that people hated it. They were tired of Russia’s propaganda, of being constantly labeled ‘Nazi’ in spite of the fact that Russian-speaking people made up great part of the protesters. I guess it was one of the reasons for adopting the new law. It was probably wrong to adopt it, but “to err is human”. If people could always predict everything and anticipate consequences, then the American constitution wouldn’t have amendments, would it?

To sum it up, I can say that I am 101% certain that the law in question didn't matter much. Nothing serious would have happened in eastern Ukraine or in Crimea but for the Russia's soldiers, its military support and propaganda. If you are constantly said that some Nazi are going to come to your town and kill you for just being Russian or speaking Russian, then you immediately want your town to become part of Russia.


Y111
Posted: Tuesday, January 9, 2018 2:16:48 AM
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Helenej wrote:

Yes, a new language law was adopted in the aftermath of the mass killing of the protesters and I can understand why. Russia’s negative interference in the events was so huge that people hated it.

What negative interference?

Helenej wrote:

They were tired of Russia’s propaganda, of being constantly labeled ‘Nazi’ in spite of the fact that Russian-speaking people made up great part of the protesters.

Russian-speaking or Russian?
Helenej
Posted: Tuesday, January 9, 2018 4:16:51 AM

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Y111 wrote:
Helenej wrote:
Russia’s negative interference in the events was so huge that people hated it.

What negative interference?

Propaganda, for the first part.
Russia's propaganda on Russia 1 TV channel

Also, the instructions that Putin and Surkov gave to the former Ukrainan president and prime minister during their personal meetings and phone talks.

Y111 wrote:
Helenej wrote:
They were tired of Russia’s propaganda, of being constantly labeled ‘Nazi’ in spite of the fact that Russian-speaking people made up great part of the protesters.

Russian-speaking or Russian?

By saying “Russian-speaking people” I meant those who consider themselves Russian and speak Russian (like me, for example) and those who consider themselves Ukrainians but speak Russian.

Tovarish
Posted: Tuesday, January 9, 2018 4:30:03 AM

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Cant Sarah Palin see Russia from her kitchen window????

And that lady is armed, ha ha.
Fyfardens
Posted: Tuesday, January 9, 2018 4:33:08 AM
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Helenej wrote:

By saying “Russian-speaking people” I meant those who consider themselves Russian and speak Russian (like me, for example) and those who consider themselves Ukrainians but speak Russian.


So you are a Russian-speaking Russian living in Ukraine who opposed the Russian annexation of Crimea. Is that correct?

I speak British English (standard southern, slightly dated).
Y111
Posted: Tuesday, January 9, 2018 7:01:05 AM
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Helenej wrote:

Propaganda, for the first part.
Russia's propaganda on Russia 1 TV channel

Yes, I can see propaganda in that video; on both sides, though. :)

Helenej wrote:

Also, the instructions that Putin and Surkov gave to the former Ukrainan president and prime minister during their personal meetings and phone talks.

What instructions? And how did they become known if the meetings and talks were personal?
Helenej
Posted: Tuesday, January 9, 2018 7:15:49 AM

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Y111 wrote:
Yes, I can see propaganda in that video; on both sides, though. :)

Interesting. Which in this video is propaganda on the Ukraine's side?

Y111 wrote:
Helenej wrote:

Also, the instructions that Putin and Surkov gave to the former Ukrainan president and prime minister during their personal meetings and phone talks.

What instructions?

Instructions to do what they have done.

Y111 wrote:
And how did they become known if the meetings and talks were personal?

Just like the talks of Trump's son with the Russians in Paris became known.

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